Playtest Rules 1.1 - Vree

[Greg Smith]

Hmm, the Veshatan is less well armed, less manueverable and less stealthy than the Tinashi.

The Neshatan has treble the beam dice (although some of it is rear) and hull 6.

Personally, I don't see a big problem. I will agree that the Minbari ships that are lower-level variants are particularly tough - I find the Ashinta very hard to kill.

{Edit: confused Neshatan and Veshatan}

 

[Silvereye]

You should have seen the original Veshatans. They were horribly overpowered.

The Veshatan has treble the beam dice (although some of it is rear) and hull 6.

Err, unless I've missed something? They are Hull 5 and a big chunk less secondary beam then a Tinashi. But there is a whole heap more damage.

These days, the Veshatan is a nice role-filler within the fleet, it gets dug on those occasions when you need it instead of a Tinashi. An Agile and fast Warship.

 

[Greg Smith]

Oops. I got mixed up between Nesh and Vesh.

 

[Ripple]

I find I don't like the variants that drop a level and lose weapons but keep the damage and crew.

I like it in theory, as I believe these stats should be pretty steady, but it makes for problem ships sometimes, as they become very very hard to kill for their level, and they often don't have weapons a full pl below what you are buying, which is pretty close to what you need for balance since they have the resilience of a ship a level above.

Ripple

 

[stryve]

yes the z'trikk is long range but then it will only be recovering fighters on 6s generally

Except that it doesn't have Fleet Carrier, and so can't recover fighters at all. Not that think it should have Fleet Carrier; it fits with my impression that the Vree just aren't very good at designing carriers.

 

[katadder]

its supposed to have fleet carrier and I have asked for that to be put back in otherwise it will take 3-4 turns to launch everything.

 

[Da Boss]

Alterntively just give it a higher Carrier score if Fleet Carrier is not desired?

I am hoping that the Vree crew stealing ability is tweeked - my original idea was quite low powered and I thiught fitted the "nice rule - very minor enhanancement".

I think the present version is a more powerful Psychic Scream which can be used against anyone and can't be defended against. As has been mentioned the power of it should really depend on the size of the ship otherwise swarms of Patrol craft and quickly decrew ships?

I'd rather it still a standard weapon that only effects crew - perhaps 1AD per PL on every Vree ship, Keep it mini-beam, precise (to avoid bulkheads) and not allow crits.

Then its a nice fluffy thing but not very powerful and various races defenses still work....................stealth etc.

 

[Burger]

Stealth should definitely work against the abduction beam.

"Captain our antimatter shredder can't get a lock. But we abducted 4 crew members."
"Lieutennant you dumbass, plug the antimatter shredder's targetting systems into the abduction beam..."

 

[CZuschlag]

Stealth should definitely work against the abduction beam.

"Captain our antimatter shredder can't get a lock. But we abducted 4 crew members."
"Lieutennant you dumbass, plug the antimatter shredder's targetting systems into the abduction beam..."

Lieutennant Dumbass. Yeah, he's a character that deserves more airtime on this board!

Should be a commandment:

1). Thy rule mechanism shalt never require the services of Lieutennant Dumbass to make sense.

Stealth, Dodge, CBD, and GEG should all apply.

 

[JTL109]

A separate thought on something bothering me. The new Vree Z’Trikk Heavy Carrier has a Hull 6.
The Vree players are always trying to excuse the VM's sm, overpowered antimatter weapons, every weapon is a turret, pumped-up patrol boats and heavy fighters with the refrain that the Vree have glass jaws (weaker hulls, fewer damage points). Well, I find the Vree are very tough. I certainly feel that with all of their advantages, NO Vree ship should get Hull 6 - especially a carrier (i.e., the Drakh Mothership's hull will be reduced from 5 to 4 because it is a carrier - well such logic should be double for the Vree).
I suggest it have a Hull 5.
Let the flaming from the Vree players begin!

-----
Come see me, I'll teach you how to deal with the Vree!
(The lessons may be hard, but they will be worthwhile!)
The problem with the new Vree carrier is the lack of short/medium
range weapons, this is completely out of character for the Vree.
As a Crusade era ship I find it totally lacking, a poor design that
has little chance of success. Take the 25" guns and make 2
banks of 6 with a secondary of 15" with 10 guns, and a third
bank of 10" with 10 guns. At this point you have a war level
ship that still cannot defeat a war level ship, but it is closer.

 

[Greg Smith]

The problem with the new Vree carrier is the lack of short/medium range weapons, this is completely out of character for the Vree. As a Crusade era ship I find it totally lacking, a poor design that
has little chance of success. Take the 25" guns and make 2
banks of 6 with a secondary of 15" with 10 guns, and a third
bank of 10" with 10 guns. At this point you have a war level
ship that still cannot defeat a war level ship, but it is closer.

So you want to give it almost as many guns as the Z'Takk (more of the long range guns, but less of the shorter range) as well as 20 flights of the best fighters in the game.

Nice.

 

[CZuschlag]

Similarly, JTL109, I saw your post on the recommendations thread. Vree getting Dodge?? I thought we debunked that idea here. I didn't want to clutter up the Recommendations thread, but I object to this idea most strongly. The Vree hardly need this! I cannot concieve of any reason for this upgrade to one of the new power races of the game. The recommendation verges on the irresponsible.

 

[Omnipotent]

well you can board him with the special action launch breaching pods and shuttles if he is using the SM ability as he is moving half or less.
also you have similar weapons but can have hull 6 ships at skirmish instead of hull 4 and rorhics are extremely manouvrable due to low speed and 2 turns.

Taking a slow moving ship against a mobile force??? U sure...besides u loose firepower by doing that!!!

Can u imagine a Vree ship at range 10 to just sit and wait for my speed 6 breaching pods to move in??? Common...

And as said Vree ship do have good hull and good hit point/crew scores...and there weapons usually kill what they target as they rearly fail with Super-AP and TD/DD...It sucks, for sure someone has got to know a way to defeat Vree in a basic ACTA game, let´s even make it a clean table with nothing on about a 4x4 table. I´ve tryied to deploy everything in a corner, it worked as long as the Vree stayed at a distant, but when they APTE to your side and start SUPER-AP TD/DD your ships to pieces it suddenly did not work...as there Hull 6/5 ships are way harder for me to destoryed then my hull 5 ships (well got a Mankhat just to try to get something dead before they closed in)...

I mean it can not be just me who finds that playing with Centauri and specially Dilgar u have no trouble blasting humans out of the sky(well early years is good), but only manage to destroy a few ships when it comes to Vree.

I´ve even played a fighter heavy list with 2 garasoch, 3 targraths and a tikrit+some other things. But then only killed those patrol ships, before my targrats and tikrit was out...Hull 5 is no fun when u get super-ap TD/DD against u...

It does not matter who playes who(we switched sides etc.) the result is still the same.

 

[CZuschlag]

The Rohrics fail, but for a different reason than you suggest, katadder --- the Vree Xixx and Xirr can run a fighting retreat (usually, all over the board) as they have long-range turretted bombardment platforms, and you have no Anti-Ship missiles.

Vree have similar loadouts to Dilgar, and almost the same damage output in the case of a couple of ships. The problems ships to face are:

1). Again, the Xonn. It's a turretted Tikrit without Anti-Ship Missiles but with Hull 6 and Super Manoeuverability. I've been complaining about this ship for weeks without success. I think it is in desparate need of a downtune.

2). The Xaar. Acknowledged problem, and hopefully getting a fix.

3). The Xeel. The same.

4). The Xirr/Xixx. OK, this one we have to use tactics against --- it's the problem of how to deal with the long-range plinkers. The good news is that they're either Battle-level at best (Xaak) or Hull 4. Hull 4 we can deal with. At this priority level, CAF really isn't necessary for your Anti-Ship missiles. As long as you can manage the range (and you should be able to .... you'll often win initiative), you'll have the ability to exchange ASM's for Antimatter Torpedoes. Assuming both CBD (in the case of the Xirr, it'll be CAF, which is ... alright, I guess), they only damage equation of interest is:

Your output vs. his output:

1 ASM vs. Hull 4 ---> 2.367 damage/hit x 0.666 chance of hit = 1.578 dmg/torp
1 Antimatter Torpedo vs. Hull 6 ---> 4.6 x0.5 = 2.3 dmg/torp

Ratio: 1.45.

You need half again the missile component or damage soak to be able to threaten the Vree. Enter the Khatrik So. This ship is a bloody nightmare to kill. At speed 6, not the slowest to even come down the pike, and it does have some Anti-Ship Missiles.

Interceptors also work great against Antimatter Torpedoes; here, I suggest the excellent Garasoch. Thoruns for interceptors = good things against Vree (just about the best possible use defensively for a Thorun is shooting down Antimatter Torpedoes).

You WILL NOT get to use your Bolters. I know, it stinks. But for the brick fleet, Khatrik backed up by Jashakar Vi and a Garasoch is about as much as I can come up with.

5). All of the rest of 'em.

Here the threat isn't damage, or cleverness ... it's the arc and the Super Manouverability. This is the category of the Xorr (you should be able to handle this ship with ease), the Xill (legitimate competitor), the Z'Takk (a fair ship at War priority), and the scouts.

These ships hurt you by getting behind you. This is the rough conceptual matchup for the Dilgar .... and it should be! The Dilgar fleet concept is "AP, Mountains of Damage, Front arc only, no defense ..... if you can get behind them, you're golden; stay in front of them, you're dead." Nobody gets behind ships better than the Vree. How does it stand up?

Pretty decently. The brick fleet here does have the excellent option of the Rohric, which makes the Dilgar fleet a Rock-Paper-Scissors match against the Vree. The Vree don't have to play along, though, and they can choose to fight you in whichever way you've missed guessing his balance. Pretty rough.

Here the fast Dilgar fleet has some advantages. In particular, the Omelos is the way to go.

Fast Vree are VERY susceptible to the Dilgar Garasoch loaded with Torpedo Thoruns. A scout-supported strike group of a Garasoch should take out a non CBD'ed-Xorr in one volley. Yikes. Torpedo version allow you to volley fire from outside of Escort range, giving you even more evil tricks to use against the Varrka.

About that SM --- it's not all that easy. The Breaching Pods that katadder was referring to is the ones you don't have as Auxilliary Craft, they're the ones that mysteriously appear after you declare "Launch Shuttles and Breaching Pods." The trick here is that, in order to use SM, you have to move half of your move or less. Well, if you do that, you're an eligible target of the Special Action. Vree ships come with very few troops. Dilgar ships usually (almost always, class-for-class), come with lots. Your marines may be better weapons than your bolters.

---------------------------------------

Last try: The Thorun Cheese Fleet.

Try at your own risk:

Fleet: 4 Garasoch, 1 Rohric, 2 Jashakar Vi.

Ohboy, now we've gone for the Meunster. This is a strike group from Hell. It leverages the scout of the Jashakar Vi (remember, Fighters are now technically ships and can exploit Scout lockons!). You should memorize the dogfighting rules up and down, because the Dilgar Fighter Pentacon is just gross with massive fighter wings, allowing you, effectively, during your dogfight resolution phase, you point at any 4-5 fighters in a dogfight with the swarm to die without a die roll if you use it right (take that, Zorth!). Any Xeel support (or even exclusive Xeel support!) will likely fail or at best draw due to your Fleet Carrier trait and his lack of it.

If he buys the bombardment fleet, you've already won. If he buys the balanced fleet, you're likely ahead, but it's a fight. If he buys the close-in maneouverable fleet, it gets messy -- you have to find ways to exploit your Garasochs as Warships, and that's not easy.

I said, try at your own risk. Again -- Vree are supposed to be a relative weakness of the Dilgar. At least, I think they are.

 

[Omnipotent]

Thnx CZus...I don´t know it just feels that they have more of that firepower...that I should have =/

 

[JTL109]

Similarly, JTL109, I saw your post on the recommendations thread. Vree getting Dodge?? I thought we debunked that idea here. I didn't want to clutter up the Recommendations thread, but I object to this idea most strongly. The Vree hardly need this! I cannot concieve of any reason for this upgrade to one of the new power races of the game. The recommendation verges on the irresponsible.

-------
Do you play a fleet that has MORE than half of the available classes
at hull 4? No other fleet in the game has more hull 4 ships.
Do you play a fleet that looses ALL fire power with a
'lose one arc' critical?
The Brakiri and the Vree are the major powers
in the LONAW, while I understand that the League will never be
one of the major powers in the game, it is a second rate power
among the second rate powers.
I consider the irrational fear of the Vree and League to be just that,
irrational. Since the spread of the E-mine plague, the Vree scout
is just another targer that does not need to the targered, the low
hit points means that it goes out rather quickly.
Early EA is the only fleet the has more that 30 percent of its classes
at hull 4, 7 of its 20 classes, and nobody plays early EA.
If you have time please post the unbeatable league fleet that
everyone is in fear of, I would like to know just what will defeat
one of the major powers most of the time.

 

[Leadman]

A separate thought on something bothering me. The new Vree Z’Trikk Heavy Carrier has a Hull 6.
The Vree players are always trying to excuse the VM's sm, overpowered antimatter weapons, every weapon is a turret, pumped-up patrol boats and heavy fighters with the refrain that the Vree have glass jaws (weaker hulls, fewer damage points). Well, I find the Vree are very tough. I certainly feel that with all of their advantages, NO Vree ship should get Hull 6 - especially a carrier (i.e., the Drakh Mothership's hull will be reduced from 5 to 4 because it is a carrier - well such logic should be double for the Vree).
I suggest it have a Hull 5.
Let the flaming from the Vree players begin!

-----
Come see me, I'll teach you how to deal with the Vree!
(The lessons may be hard, but they will be worthwhile!)
The problem with the new Vree carrier is the lack of short/medium
range weapons, this is completely out of character for the Vree.
As a Crusade era ship I find it totally lacking, a poor design that
has little chance of success. Take the 25" guns and make 2
banks of 6 with a secondary of 15" with 10 guns, and a third
bank of 10" with 10 guns. At this point you have a war level
ship that still cannot defeat a war level ship, but it is closer.

I have to disagree with both of you. First, it is based on a hull 6 design and should remain hull 6. Second, it is a carrier with great long range weapons. What more can you ask of a carrier? I think it is wrong to give the weapons of the Z'Takk and 20 fighters. If there is something that should change, I would recommend changing command +1 to fleet carrier.

Dannie

 

[JTL109]

-------
Using both the Demos and the Vorchan means that you should be able
to kill or cripple mearly every skirmish level ship that the Vree field on
turn one. (assuming average rolls)

 

[CZuschlag]

Similarly, JTL109, I saw your post on the recommendations thread. Vree getting Dodge?? I thought we debunked that idea here. I didn't want to clutter up the Recommendations thread, but I object to this idea most strongly. The Vree hardly need this! I cannot concieve of any reason for this upgrade to one of the new power races of the game. The recommendation verges on the irresponsible.

-------
Do you play a fleet that has MORE than half of the available classes
at hull 4? No other fleet in the game has more hull 4 ships.
Do you play a fleet that looses ALL fire power with a
'lose one arc' critical?
The Brakiri and the Vree are the major powers
in the LONAW, while I understand that the League will never be
one of the major powers in the game, it is a second rate power
among the second rate powers.
I consider the irrational fear of the Vree and League to be just that,
irrational. Since the spread of the E-mine plague, the Vree scout
is just another targer that does not need to the targered, the low
hit points means that it goes out rather quickly.
Early EA is the only fleet the has more that 30 percent of its classes
at hull 4, 7 of its 20 classes, and nobody plays early EA.
If you have time please post the unbeatable league fleet that
everyone is in fear of, I would like to know just what will defeat
one of the major powers most of the time.

I play a lot of Drakh. That sees as much Hull 4 as anyone! Short-ranged, and dodge-dependent to boot, so I see tons of Emine. And the raiders are hosed on "lose one arc" as thoroughly as anyone else

The Vree we see look like:
-- Xixx and Xirr at long range, widely spaced, playing dodge in-and-out of dust clouds and asteriods

-- Xill, Xonn and/or Xaak (usually Xill and Xonn) closing to 15 or 10 on the side of a fleet

-- perhaps a few Xeel, very rare, as we consider it to be a cheese ship with the current Tzymm loadout (we think Tzymm should be paid for like Rutarians; with Zorth, the Xeel was fine)

-- a Vaarka or a Vaarl or two

So, a heavy 5-raid might be one Xonn/Xaak, a Xill, a Vaarka, two Xixx/Xirr, and two Xaar. Light version is 2 Xill, two Xixx/Xirr, two Xeel, Vaarl, Xaar, and one empty slot that could have been spent otherwise that "upgrades a wing of Zorth to Tzymm".

Not unbeatable --- but nasty.

Unbeatable? Try 10 old Xeel. Holy cripes, Mary Mother of God, will this clear the board of opposition. Only if you fight the pak'ma'ra, Gaim, or a Dag'Kar wielding Narn fleet will you lose to this. The fighterstrike firepower is AWESOME. The Dilgar have no chance unless they took a huge horde of Garasoch (and even that might not work unless you truly take mostly CVs!); the Brakiri get to just die pathetically, Brokados or not. Minbari can just go home; even with Web of Death, they have zero shot. Drakh are done before they hit the table. White Stars melt in fear of the fighterstrike. Very few fleets are truly unbeatable, but this fleet should run with a win percentage in the low to mid 90's. It's truly horrid, and why that ship is getting a fix.

"Early EA is the only fleet the has more that 30 percent of its classes
at hull 4 7 of its 20 classes":
Vree: Ximm, Xorr, Xeel, Xirr, Xixx, Vaarka, Varrl :58.3% of fleet selection.
Drakh: Ria'stor, Kama're, Ma'cu, Amu, Ria'stor Gris, Sa'riastor: 60% of fleet selection -- even more than the Vree!

We're in the same boat, here. I fully understand about Hull 4, but note the fleet selections above -- the only direct combatants in the fleet design above that ever close to closer range than 15 all have Hull 5 or better, or come with substantial Tzymm support. If you're taking lots of Xorr, then, that's your mistake. In the case of the Ximm, I dont' know what to say; it's the wrong Patrol hull to take.

You repair criticals under All Hands on Deck on a 2 or better (pretty sick!). If you lose an arc, half the time, it's repairable in one turn.

Why in Kosh's name are you exposing your scout to Emines? On the standard 4x6 table, there is an average of 4 terrain pieces. With 36" scouting range and SM, why aren't you behind some terrain piece, under CBD, and untargetable, Emine ability or not? Very confused.

 

[Ripple]

For us league loving folks... please note... this is a Vree fleet, not a League one, and leans a bit on the abilities of the Xeel, a noted problem hull.

The regular fleets listed are tough but beatable...

Ripple