playing both sides of the fence

sorry if this is a dumb question guys but i was considering doing either a french or italian fleet simply because i "think" i could use them as either axis or allies.

would anyone mind confirming this and maybe throwing some history at us as to how this works out?

i know both fleets were kind of ineffective in the war but both fleets have some very nice ships and could be fun in a game.
 
The French routinely fired on american and British forces after the "armistice". One of the Richilue (spelling please) attacked the USS Massachucettes (spelling again?). The British sent acouple of battleships to try and nuetralize the French fleet at Dakar in preparation for the free french invasion of that colony (though it failed) and the Richelue and several cruisers fought them off. The French fleet was a very controversal issue through out the WWII after May 1940 (even the Free French).

The Italian fleet never fought Axis forces once they surrendered at Malta. They are an execellent choice though if you have a buddy that plays brits.
 
did the french fight the axis?

the italians never fought the axis even after they became part of the us navy? maybe i read that wrong... i know some ships became part of the US navy.
 
Before Petain take control of the governement the french fleet operate with the RN ( hunting Graff spee, fighting in Norway, fritening the russian in finland)
After the surrendering and before opertion catapult most of the ship move to africa, mostly north africa. Some little units join the free french as the minelayer submarine Rubis. Some are interned in great britain.

Note that they didn't fight their intended target : the Italian as Italy go in war after the event.

During catapult the british seize the interned units and try to force the french fleet to dismantle. It turn to open fight at Mers el Kebir, but at some place like Alexandrie they go to an agrement.
Some of the seized ship was given to Muselier ( the free french admiral ) like the submarine cruiser Surcouf.

Thing become complicated for the french crew then. They are normaly allies, but the allied are f** brit who kill them and their wives haves german's tank near their houses.
The French don't attack allies position but fire on them when they are in position of threatening their territories. They try to act to prevent attack of their african territories.

The Battleship Jean Bart escape from Saint Nazaire ( near Nantes ) only 80% finished, without it's main engine operational to Casablanca. with his only turret she return fire to the USS Massachusetts who try to land free french forces.

Defending Dakar the Richelieu and was hit by a torpedo and stopped but can still repel the british WWI battleship, and the fre french fail to made senegal switch side.

After the invasion of the "free zone" and the French Africa thing became simpler for the french and numbers of ship join the free french.

But the main fleet, including survivors of Mers el Kebir was trapped at toulon with not enought time to launch engine when german sailor come in tanks. All ship but a few submarine was scuttled. The Italian navy manage to save some of these but all main unit was destroyed in a week long firework.

The battleship Richelieu go to New York to have a refit and was send to help the home fleet in norway, and then she go to the pacific in an RN task force.
 
Some of the seized ship was given to Muselier ( the free french admiral ) like the submarine cruiser Surcouf.

You sure? I could have sworn the story was that at the time of the surrender, or shortly after the surrender, the Surcouf sailed north to Britain to finish its refit, get repaired, etc. and then tried to leave off on its own to do who knows what, and then the British had to seize it by force(I believe 2 people were killed in the process), and afterwards it operated as part of the Free French Navy, but only under the close watch of some Enlgish 'advisors'.

Anyway, what I got out of your post, was that after the surrender, the French Navy either A-scuttled their own ships, B-surrendered to the Allies, C- Surrendered to the Axis, D- Attacked the Axis, E- Attacked the Allies, or F- Attacked both sides.
 
chaos0xomega your mainly right but Surcouf men try to leave to avoid English jail, as rumored true, and actively resist to british seizing. Latter her crew was acuused of firing on a british ship, and so she got some "advisor" to make sure that such mistake can't happen again. But these advisor didn't prevent her to "free" St Pierre et Miquelon against US will.
 
This new book is topical wrt the way this thread is developing:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1844155226/ref=pe_pe_3421_5150161_pe_snp_226
 
I AM SO GETTING THAT BOOK!

And Hugbiel, what do you mean by 'freeing' St. Pierre et Miquelon? I've never heard of that event/ place before.
 
St. Pierre et Miquelon is a french territorie, south of newfoundland. Historiquely mainly a fishing base on the bank.

As other foreign french territories it follow the "official" goverment of vichy.

when visiting Canada Muselier under the cover of manoeuver take the surcouf and 3 corvettes to capture Vichy's official and call the territorie free.

US have their agrement with vichy and some rumor said that a usn DD was send and fired upon by the surcouf.
 
Der Kommandant said:
did the french fight the axis?

the italians never fought the axis even after they became part of the us navy? maybe i read that wrong... i know some ships became part of the US navy.

Yes french ships fought the Axis, though they tended to only participate in operations to "free" Vichy colonies or Convoy actions.

The Italian fleet was divided (what had survived anyway) between the allied powers. The Ciao Dulio, for example, went to Russia.
 
Some information on St Pierre et Miquelon:

http://www.st-pierre-et-miquelon.com/english/index.php

I read in an inflight magazine (so it could be tosh) that there are concerns over the long term viability of the territory since so many young people leave the islands (sounds like the Scillies and the Outer Hebrides), and that there is a belief in some quarters that the Canadians are pinching oil reserves from the "Baguette" (which is, I understand the local nickname for the rather complicated arrangement of territorial waters in the area) by using lateral drilling from platforms in Canadian waters.

Sounds like an interesting place!
 
One of my modern anval wargaming chums has already scoped out a 2010 scenario involving French and Canadian naval forces clashing over the islands. :)
 
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