Planetoid, Buffered Planetoid Hulls and SDB Monitors

[PsiTraveller]

If this is slightly incoherent please note it is almost 3:30 a,m, as I write it. insomnia sucks.

I am looking at low cost ship design and am looking at planetoid hulls as SDB frames. I have several questions.

1) What is the difference between a planetoid and a buffered planetoid? Aside from the 80%/65% interior space and hull point differences. Can you find a likely chunk of rock and hollow it out to be either a planetoid or a buffered planeotid?

2) Is there a minimum size for a SDB planetoid? I was hoping for a 500 ton (400 ton interior space) rock as a SDB monitor.

3) Adding armour to a planetoid. Adding a lot of Crystal iron to a planetoid is pretty cheap since the price of armour is based on the cost off the hull. In the old HIgh guard the armour stacked (so the 2 points from the hull plus the armour added). Is this still the same and is the TL 13 limit still the same (allowing for armour 15 on a hull)

4) Reflec. Can you put reflec armour on your planetoid and make it a shiny rock? This would cost 50 million credits for a 500 ton rock, which only cost you 2 million to hollow out.

5) Can you reinforce the Hull as per the options chapter? (basically add in 25 tons of armour into the calculations for tonnage. This would be deducted from the 400 tons of interior space if I am on the right track.

6: Are hull points based on the 500 tons of total planetoid or the 400 tons of usable volume? There are 40 Hull points difference for a cost of 40 000 Credits. This as opposed to 500 000 Credits to get the same Hull points from a 500 ton regular hull.

7) How many Hardpoints will the ship have 5 based on total tonnage or 4 based on usable tonnage?

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Condottiere]

Since the surface area is fractal, the chances are that reflec armour would cost double, since it covers twice the surface area, even more so if buffered.

Also, there a chance the ray can ping pong into a small thermal exhaust port.

 

[AndrewW]

Ok, currently unofficial answers: (Will see about getting some clarifications into the rules)

#1 Finding rocks isn't covered by the rules.

#2 There's already been a 200 ton planetoid hull from the current edition.

#3 Stack away. You can add up to 13 points of Crystaliron.

#4 I would say go for it as long as the restriction isn't there.

#5 Yes, reinforce is the same and would be based on the full 500 tons and take away from available space.

#6 Full 500 tons.

#7 Full hull, so 5 in this case.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Thanks for the answers:
In regards to 1). I am looking for a description of what a planetoid is and what a buffered planetoid is. It may be as simple as. "Any rock body can be made into a simple planetoid body by hollowing out the interior of the planetoid. A buffered planetoid is hollowed out leaving a thicker protective shell, giving increased protection (Armour 4 instead of 2), but leaving less usable volume inside the planetoid for working areas."

That's all I am looking for, an explanation between regular and buffered. I just want to be sure there is nothing I am missing between the two configurations.

thanks again for the answers. I am off to make a SDB rock. The David Class of stony ships. They are able to take on and destroy regular ships several times larger than themselves.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

I recall seeing some interesting conclusions about the viability of planetoid craft on this page: http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/hulls1.html

I'm not entirely sure whether or not it is relevant to your purposes, but you will no doubt consider it worth a look.

Personally, I think the most appropriate role for a planetoid is as either a stealthy system defense boat or a pleasure craft.

 

[cavebear]

Thanks for the answers:
In regards to 1). I am looking for a description of what a planetoid is and what a buffered planetoid is. It may be as simple as. "Any rock body can be made into a simple planetoid body by hollowing out the interior of the planetoid. A buffered planetoid is hollowed out leaving a thicker protective shell, giving increased protection (Armour 4 instead of 2), but leaving less usable volume inside the planetoid for working areas."

That's all I am looking for, an explanation between regular and buffered. I just want to be sure there is nothing I am missing between the two configurations.

thanks again for the answers. I am off to make a SDB rock. The David Class of stony ships. They are able to take on and destroy regular ships several times larger than themselves.

Without an explanation from MGT, I was thinking that non-buffered and buffered were about two different types of usable asteroids. Where non-buffered would be made from a rocky asteroid and a buffered would be made from a nickel/iron asteroid. Kind of a very well armoured planetoid hull. I was always thinking that a 10 meter thick nickel/iron hull would stand up to a level of punishment that most small ships could not be able to take.

But your comments, regardless of what the actual definition of buffered and non-buffered are, got me interested about what types of asteroids we have in our own neighbourhood so I took a look at http://nineplanets.org/asteroids.html and they had some interesting info:

• C-type, includes more than 75% of known asteroids: extremely dark (albedo 0.03); similar to carbonaceous chondrite meteorites; approximately the same chemical composition as the Sun minus hydrogen, helium and other volatiles;
• S-type, 17%: relatively bright (albedo .10-.22); metallic nickel-iron mixed with iron- and magnesium-silicates;
• M-type, most of the rest: bright (albedo .10-.18); pure nickel-iron.
• There are also a dozen or so other rare types.

Pretty sure I wouldn't use the carbonaceous type!

But here is another question: Would you actually dig out the center to make a usable space or would you do what the author John Ringo did in his "Troy Rising" series, which was to super heat a nickel/iron body while spinning it and then using compressed gas (if I remember correctly), to expand it into a giant sphere with a ton of usable empty space that could be built in while still retaining a thick defensive outer shell? Both ways seem like a lot of work but the Ringo way seems like it would give you a bigger bang for your buck.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Melt it with fusion heat, spin it to have the metals separate to harvest all the metals by weight. The slag at the lighter end heat to pumpable consistency and injection mold a ship one section at a time Liberty ship style. Another option is to cast slabs of rock and fit them together jigsaw style.

Making a sphere would enclose the most volume for area enclosed. You also have it costing 20 percent less.
The good thing about using rock ships is that even systems with poor asteroid belts could make SDB's. I've made three different versions so far, 200, 400, 500 Planetoid and buffered versions.

my 500 ton version can do 50 points of damage per round on average, at long range. That is enough to cause a Crit on a pretty big ship, depending on armour of course. when i do my tests i assume Crystaliron 4, because most of the common ships have that

 

[Condottiere]

There are two reasons to use them, they're cheap, and they provide camouflage, if they don't do anything that a normally asteroid wouldn't do, like making a stop for Chinese take out.

 

[Nerhesi]

One of the coolest things I've noticed about the asteroid or buffered asteroid hulls is their perfect camo - and I don't even think this is by design

If you look at the sensors chart, assuming you do detect an enemy asteroid ship, "minimal" details at the distant/very long ranges probably won give you anything more than an asteroid. So you're really not detecting a ship but just another rock...

Ofcourse when stuff is closer and you can get more details you'd see weapon bay and manoeuvre drive outlines and the such. But basic shape? Asteroid!

 

[FallingPhoenix]

One of the coolest things I've noticed about the asteroid or buffered asteroid hulls is their perfect camo - and I don't even think this is by design

If you look at the sensors chart, assuming you do detect an enemy asteroid ship, "minimal" details at the distant/very long ranges probably won give you anything more than an asteroid. So you're really not detecting a ship but just another rock...

Ofcourse when stuff is closer and you can get more details you'd see weapon bay and manoeuvre drive outlines and the such. But basic shape? Asteroid!

Indeed. Although if you were using infrared, I would think it would be like that line from Starship Troopers about skinnies...they show up in a set of snoopers like a neon sign.

 

[PsiTraveller]

A Heinlein reference, +1 for you!
The next space station I make will be named E-M3.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Came up with a TL 13 System Protector
200 Ton Buffered Planetoid System Defence Boat: TL 13
Tons: 200
Internal Tons: 130
Reflec Armour on Planetoid
Hull Points 132 (Buffered + reinforced Hull for 10 tons)
Armour: CrystalIron: 13: Buffered Planetoid 4 (AC 17 vs weapons, 20 vs Lasers) 32.5 Tons
M-Drive: Thrust 7 TL 12 14 Tons
J-Drive: None
Power Plant: TL 12 (Tech ADvance to 13: 16.5 Power per ton: 11 Tons
Fuel: 4 tons (1.1 tone per month, gives 3 months power)
Armoured Fuel Tank: 1 Ton
Bridge with Holographic Controls: 10 Tons
Computer: TL 13 Rating 25
Sensors TL 12 improved 3 Tons
Enhanced Signal Processing: 2 Tons
Counter Measures Suite: 2 Tons
Weapons: 2 Turrets: 2 Tons
Triple Turrets:
Pulse Laser X 3
Tech Upgrade: Long Range, Intense Focus
Turret 2
Pulse LaserX 3
Tech Upgrade: Long Range, Very High Yield
Systems: Ships Locker
Tow Cable: 2 Tons
Staterooms: 5 Staterooms: 20 Tons
5 Low Berths: 2.5 Tons
Common Areas: 5 Tons
Cargo: 5 Tons
Crew Pilot Engineer X 2, Gunner X 2, Medic
Software: Library (0), Manoeuvre (0), Fire Control 3 (15), Evade 1 (10), Virt Mining: 15
Power Needed: 163
Power generated 181
Cost 156 MCr



This ship can hit from Very Long range, and if I am reading the rules correctly the Firing Control software can add a +3 to one attack, or +2 ,+1 to aid both Gunners.

I have one Laser with Very High yield, making the average Damage 8 + 4 + Effect - Armour for the first attack. The Second Laser has AP 2 which will increase damage by 2 if the opponent is armoured. An argument could be made for either advance.

At 17 armour and 20 for Lasers this SDB can ignore a lot of attacks coming its way, the damage will not harm it. This would protect against the TL 15 Harrier I posted a while back.

The Counter measures will help in E-warfare spoofing of enemy missiles, and the Pulse Lasers can be used as point defence once the missiles get close enough.

The SDB can stay at Very Long Range and whittle the enemy down, matching speeds with its 7 Thrust and using excess Thrust to aid in attacks and dodges. The Evade 1 software gives a -1 to all attacks for free, giving a -5 for Very Long Range before anything else the player does.

At 132 Hull Points it has a Crit rating of 13 points before a Critical Hit is Sustained, a 62% increase over other 200 Ton Ships. The 132 Hull Points is equal to a ship of 330 Tons. The SDB could charge in at Thrust 7 to get to Long or Medium range and increase the attack bonuses from the Pulse Lasers to increaes the chance of getting a Critical hit Effect.

Scaling up the Goliath class series of System Defence Monitor Planetoids offers a cost effective means of controlling System space and sovereignty.

For blueprints and designs contact Edmund Sykes: Scholars Tower: Drinax.

 

[Chas]

I've been following this with interest as hadn't really gotten round to looking at these builds, though had definitely wanted to see how a buffered planetoid battle rider might work.

It's a good example of why the tachyon bays should have their AP pushed upwards, 15 for medium and 20 for large I would suggest.

Probably in terms of tactical build performance/credit there'd be little reason not to go a hundred tons more or so to include a bit more firepower, it would be good to fit a barbette on this and do real damage to heavy armored fighters and the like, and get goodies like an upgrade to the Military Counter Measure suite.

:thumbup:

 

[PsiTraveller]

600 Ton Buffered Planetoid System Defence Boat
Tons 600 Internal Volume 390 Tons
Tech Advance: Hull Durability + 10%
Reinforced Hull: 97 Tons
Reflec Armour: 60 Million Credits
Crystal Iron Armour: 13 Points 97.5 Tons
Armour Total 17 (20 vs Lasers)
m Drive: Thrust 9 Tech Advance 54 Tons
Tech Advance: 25 percent less energy
Power Plant: TEch ADvance 10% more power: 16.5 points /ton: 39 Tons
Power Generated: 643
Fuel: 10 tons, 8 weeks supply, 1 ton of armoured tankage
Bridge 20 tons: Holographic Controls
Computer: TL 13 Rating 25
Sensors TL 12 improved 3 Tons
Enhanced Signal Processing: 2 Tons
Counter Measures Suite: 2 Tons
Hardpoint 1 Particle Beam Barbette: 5 tons
Hardpoints 2,3,4: Triple Turrets 3 Tons
Pulse Lasers X 3 in each
Tech Advance Long Range, Very High Yield or Intense Focus
Hardpoint 4: Fusion Barbette: 5 tons
Tech Advance: Long Range
Hardpoint 6: Triple Turret
Beam Laser X 3
Tech Advance, Long Range, Intense Focus

18 Staterooms 72 tons
10 Low berths 5 Tons
18 tons common area
Ships Locker, Medic Bay (4 Tons)
Tow Cable (6 tons)

Total tonnage 389.5 Cost393 MCr

 

[PsiTraveller]

This SDB is 600 tons exteranal space, 390 internal (that 65 percent)
it costs 6000 credits a ton because it has the tech advance of increased hull durability.
This gives +10% hull points. Buffered already gives +50%.
I added Reinforced hull for 97 tons to give another 20% Hull points. The final total is 475 hull points, almost 1200 tons worth (1187 )

This cost 6.6 million Credits as opposed to 60 million for a basic 1200 ton hull
Covering it in 13 points of Crystal iron only cost 1.56 million credits.
+4 for Buffered and 3 for Reflec is 17 vs regular and 20 vs Laser damage.

The ship can run away to stay at range with its 3 Very Long range weapons and whittle an opponent down with an average of 41 points a round of damage

If the ship goes to Long range and uses the second Barbette and extended range Beam lasers the damage goes up to 71 points a round on average. You have to swap the DM bonus of the firing software around.

That's my heavier SDB buffered planetoid example.

 

[Chas]

I like this, and shows a lot of potential on how different builds could come together. There's real performance / credit in these.

 

[Chas]

I like this, and shows a lot of potential on how different builds could come together. There's real performance / credit in these.

 

[PsiTraveller]

I am of the opinion that the ability to stand off in a range band that the enemy cannot reach you is a huge win. Most of my designs are built on that, so I tend to go Very Long range and try to maximize the damage and Crit chance at that range band.

To counter this an SDB has to either have the same reach as the attacking ship, or the ability to close the range band gap (25 Thrust differential) in order to get to Long range.
Very Long range, with a Radiation weapon may allow attrition to weaken the enemy ship as well.

In order to close the range band a high Thrust is needed, and a high hull point tally to prevent Crits from Sustained Damage. A high armour prevents Effect +6 Crits if the armour negates all damage there is no Crit. If there is a crit the high armour reduces the Hull Point loss per hit, allowing the SDB to outlast an opponent.

Equal tonnage fights will mean equal number of Hardpoints and weapons. Going against a heavier ship gives up weapons and damage/round aggregate, but only if the enemy ship has a weapon that can reach the range band.

The temptation is to go for all Very long range weapons, but they generally do less damage, although a couple of the barbettes do decent damage.

Planetoids make cheap SDB's 4000 a ton vs 50 000 for regulaar ships, plus the 2 or 4 free armour. It makes up for the loss in volume. Space can get tight for manning Guns and having enough beds for the troops. The lack of jump fuel saves a lot, so a J4 attacking ship has the same issue, and it loses 40% of the ship volume as opposed to 35% of a buffered planetoid. So the SDB is cheaper and slightly more space efficient.

The cost of armour is a win since it is based on hull cost so high tech armour plate on a planetoid is cheaper than high tech plate attached to a spaceship by 5% to 8% of hull cost per point of armour.

So a 1000 ton ship costs 50 million Credits, or 4 Million for a planetoid. Superdense armour costs 8 percent of hull cost per point, or 4 million per point for the ship and 320 000 for the planetoid. 10 points of armour, 40 million for the ship, 3.2 million for the planetoid.

I am going to be spending a trillion credits on planetoids, and swamp my opponents in sheer weight of numbers. imagine saving 30 million a ship across an entire fleet. The guys on defense against ships will be able to field a lot more SDB's for the same budget.

The cost of torpedoes and missiles (combat accounting) shows the money drain on having ships shoot missiles (which miss) is far more expensive than energy beams. Even hitting with a triple missile turret cost more for the attacker than the defender. 3 missiles, almost 90 000 credits.
4D + 8 damage is 32 points max. that is 32000 credits worth of damage in hull points. Critical hits may increase that, but they might be fixed for 10 000 in spare parts.

just my insomniatic thoughts for 4 a.m.

 

[Chas]

Yeah, most of the designs I've done have looked at trying to do as much damage as possible from a distance. But for a system defense boat there might be issues with that tactic... what happens when the opponent ducks behind an asteroid for instance.

Regardless of any of that, definitely need to get a spreadsheet working to see what happens when the planetoids get a jump drive with multiple decreased fuel advantages... they might be a bit of an elephant in the room.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Nerhesi and Chas pointed out in another thread that the armour value of a planetoid plus armour still maxes out at the TL limit mentioned in the chart. So all the designs listed above are off by 4 or 2 if they are buffered or not.


"The Hull Armour table shows how much of the hull’s tonnage is consumed per point of armour
Protection added, along with its costs. A minimum TL is required for each type of armour, and there is a maximum amount that can be attached to a hull – this includes any armour the ship had prior to modification."

This will allow more hits and Critical hits to get through the build. A lot will still be stopped, but some Crits will get through on above average damage.