Pirates

[treeplanter]

I agree here, why give all those free bonus? I want to play with you and play a pirate

 

[Ichabod]

, and the Temptress is decorative.

By decorative, you mean she gives the crew and marines a reason to live, right?

Again, given a choice between noble and temptress, temptress is the only PC choice since the noble is so mechanically lame. So, in any case where you'd think "noble would ...", you can substitute "temptress would ...", which means that she should be doing something whenever there are other people around. And, because she gets double skill ranks, she will do it far, far better than a noble ever would.

Alternatively, can think in terms of: Noble gives out medals for good service in the cause. Temptress gives out better service for good service in the cause.

 

[Spectator]

, and the Temptress is decorative.

By decorative, you mean she gives the crew and marines a reason to live, right?

Again, given a choice between noble and temptress, temptress is the only PC choice since the noble is so mechanically lame. So, in any case where you'd think "noble would ...", you can substitute "temptress would ...", which means that she should be doing something whenever there are other people around. And, because she gets double skill ranks, she will do it far, far better than a noble ever would.

Alternatively, can think in terms of: Noble gives out medals for good service in the cause. Temptress gives out better service for good service in the cause.

Yeah service based economies, baby!

 

[Spectator]

C'Hoof mentioned in response to my freebie skill points:

* Freebie Skill points: basically the idea of class-related skill freebies isn't bad. But why should only the Pirate get these? With the same justification, all Fierce classes for instance should get Survival for free at each level and other wilderness skills as a bonus.

Excellent point, maybe I can justify this, maybe I can't, but here I go: I think a nomad should get a ride point every level along with a track. I think a borderer should get wilderness survival and track freebie points/ every level.

Barbarians; well there are so many regional variations, but they should get a location based track and survival skill point, as well.

Soldiers: not sure I would do anything in particular except UP their skill alotment and replace formation combat with a feat or sneak atack damage ( yeah sneak attack damage, after all it puzzled me why the no-combat oriented thief could kill some one more effectively w/ a snaek attack than better than one trained to dispense death).

BTW, I am still using 1st Ed. and I don't use (although I admire) the synergized/ combine skills others use (eg: stealth in lieu of hide and move silent, etc...)

 

[Ichabod]

I've mentioned in the past that I'd be more inclined to play a thief/barbarian than a pirate. I see t/b as the closest comp. So, I decided to spec out the comparison. The assumption is Hyborians for maximum feats, but of course, messing around with other races skews the results some depending upon favored classes.

I only went to 6th and 8th levels as I figure the heart of playing characters is going to be through those levels. Certainly, I couldn't care less what people's 20th level builds are.

While the actual attributes aren't any different in this comparison and should net out and are going to depend highly upon party composition and campaign needs, I did roll up attributes to help more detailed analysis in case there was some point to it.

Rolled 8, 7, 3, 4, 3, 10, rolled randomly to increase the 4 to a 5 to get +36 to add to the base of 48 for 84 total attribute points (what my first Conan character has and a reasonable slightly above the 81 point average total using heroic method).

Assign – chop: This is always tricky since it’s so campaign dependent, but let’s try just for noncrazy. Cha 11 (dump stat). Con 11 (not really a good idea but something has to suffer). Wis 12. Int 16 (I’d always do 18). Str 18. Dex 15.

Str 18, Dex 15, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 11

At 6th level: Str 19, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 12

Pirate: 36 (63 total) skill ranks, 39 HP, BAB +4, Dodge +4, Parry +3, +5/+5/+2, SA +2d6, Ferocious Attack, Seamanship +2, Uncanny Dodge, Mobility

Thief/Barbarian 2/4: 56 (83 total) skill ranks, 43 HP, BAB +5, Dodge +4, Parry +2, +4/+8/+1, SA +1d8, Eyes of the Cat, Fearless, Track, Versatility -2, Crimson Mist, Endurance, Uncanny Dodge

Thief/Barbarian 4/2: 64 (91 total) skill ranks, 41 HP, BAB +5, Dodge +4 (Light-Footed), Parry +2, +4/+6/+1, SA +3d8, Eyes of the Cat, Fearless, Track, Versatility -2, Crimson Mist

At this stage, the question is whether it's more important to have hefty SA or to have Uncanny Dodge with the t/b builds. Mobility is good and all but not 20 skill ranks good. The RAW is insipid when it comes to first level skill ranks, but no comparison makes sense when you start throwing in house rules.


At 8th level: Str 19, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 12 - or bump Con instead, bumping Str is not in any way actually bad, it’s just kind of silly when you aren’t intending to be a fighter.

Pirate: 44 (77 total) skill ranks, 49 HP, BAB +6/1, Dodge +6, Parry +4, +6/+6/+2, SA +2d6, additional Ferocious Attack, Seamanship +2, Uncanny Dodge, Mobility, Improved Uncanny Dodge

Thief Barbarian 4/4: 72 (105 total) skill ranks, 53 HP, BAB +7/2, Dodge +6 (Light-Footed), Parry +3, +5/+8/+2, SA +3d8, Eyes of the cat, Fearless, Track, Versatility -2, Crimson Mist, Endurance, Uncanny Dodge

Here, we see greater divergence in how you'd actually play the characters. The pirate is moving up the uncanny and mobility chains far faster and Ferocious starts being ... um ... ferocious ... at the cost of massive skill ranks and beaucoup SA. Also, the pirate is likely to wear more armor, at least on land.

Now, with STR being the highest stat, SA isn't as much of an issue. The t/b build could have gone a more DEX route, dumped on STR (well, keeping it at least at 13 for PA), and pushed something like CON for improved survivability while having the SA to mitigate the need for high STR to generate sufficient damage output. With these stats, it's hard to say whether there's a real difference since there's a big gap between the good scores and the bad.

From a noncombat perspective, even if you equalize skill ranks, the t/b destroys the pirate, which actually to me seems ironic. From a combat perspective, I'd be okay with either one.

As the pirate continues to gain levels, it gets more of the same which is not a bad thing since it could use some help shining at something. The t/b gets things like Diehard and Skill Mastery while chasing on the uncanny and mobility trees. My preference is easy for what it's worth.

So, over time, the oddity is that it seems like the pirate becomes more and more the combat character in this comparison while the t/b has the versatility (oh no, I did not just say that). In a combat heavy campaign, there could be something to which sort of build one prefers (moving attributes around as necessary to facilitate), I suppose.

 

[Clovenhoof]

A few notes on that:
As you said, Pirate (normally) goes through Uncanny Dodge and Mobility a lot faster. However, there's a workaround for the T/B: let him take the Dodge and Mobility feats before gaining Barb 5. Then his class Mobility will stack up to Improved Mobility.
That way, T/B can even get Greater Mobility, albeit later than a singleclass character.

I also think it's definitely worth looking at the situation at levels 12 through 15, even if you don't want to go through to 20. Of course the Skill gap widens further, but what about combat?

Pir 13: BAB +9/+4; Sneak Attack +4d6 (+5d6 for Zingaran), DD +9, Imp. Uncanny Dodge, Imp. Mobility
T/B 7/6: BAB +11/+6/+1, Sneak Attack +4d8, DD +8 (Dodge; Uncanny Dodge, Improved Mobility (see above)

I'm ignoring Light-Footed here because it only works without armour. Besides, the Pirate can buy it with the Feat slot the T/B uses for Mobility.

So... the Pirate can't be flanked, but that's about it. In all other respects, T/B is either decidedly better (e.g. third attack) or marginally worse (e.g. Defense).

BTW I originally started this post in the attempt to show that the Pirate gains the edge over T/B at later levels, but as I wrote this up, I have to concede that this is simply not the case. T/B is just better, unless you actually do play seagoing adventures very often. But who does that.

 

[Spectator]

I totally agree the T/B build is probably the strongest out there. MAssive combat, massive skills, massive feats, who wants anything less, right?

Just don't depend on him to survive on anything other than a blow-up float in a swimming pool. LOL.

Yeah I initially started this thread because I was going through Ruins Of Hyboria and came across Valeria's Priate 7/Soldier 2 character and I thought that it was mor challenging (maybe more fun) to explore the non-metagaming characters.
The more I investigated the pirate, the more my conclusion was, that at the minimum necessary, they do need a +4 point/ level skill boost (Extra feats cool, but I know you disagree with my +6 extra feats, maybe with the exception of Carouser and Pirate Code Expert, but that's cool).

I definitely think that playing something beside a Cimmerian barbarian makes the game more fun.

 

[Spade]

The game is what you make of it. What you don't want to make of it is a pile of house rules so every class can compete with the Barbarian. You need to tone down the Barbarian class. Me and my mates have tried, it's not an easy task. Any thread you try to pull either takes out something really cool, something really integrated into the rest of the rules, or something necessary for a 20th level character to call himself Conan Junior.

Don't discount getting Greater Mobility a few levels later. That single ability is one of the most unbalancing tricks in d20 before adding the magic back in.

- Spade

 

[treeplanter]

I aggree that thief/barb a pretty power full archetype, no problem here.

However some thing are overlooked when looking at the pirate:

Seamanship: Ok pretty much blank, but with a pirate in a group the GM SHOULD include some seafearing adventure, so the pirate can shine.

Greater mobility: A straith level pirate can get it by 10th level. That is not to be overlooked.

Ferocious attack: Ok, I understand this is non-synergic with sneak attack, but wathever, this is a quite strong power. let take the 13th level exemple, with greater mobility, you can get 5 (2 each hand + 1 from ferocious attack) at +6 attack/+6 damages AND +6 initiative so it's almost sure you'll strike first. 5 attack at +6 will kill roughly any character EVEN with uncanny dodge, OR 5 weak opponent. Why not add power attack for some more overkill??? AND you get a chance (and a pretty good one) to STUN for a round every opponent that see you?

Just imagine the pirate boarding the Barb/thief ship and stuning the crew for a round? pretty much over.

Or he encounter a mixed party of 13th level, win initiative (thanks ferocious attack) kill 2-3 of them (the most dangerous for him) with MD (+4 strenght, +6 ferocious, +9 power attack for a +19, stun the 2-3 other and sneak attack them to dead in his next round? Yes it his unlikely. but it is possible. wich other class can do that alone? Maybe a scholar with some kind of spell.

I think you guy just dismiss Ferocious attack like it's an useless power, but it is not. There is ton of situation where sneak attack is useless, but ferocious attack is godly.

 

[Clovenhoof]

with a pirate in a group the GM SHOULD include some seafearing adventure, so the pirate can shine.

Agreed.

Greater mobility: A straith level pirate can get it by 10th level.

Not quite, if for a rather peculiar reason. In order for that to work, you need to get the Mobility feat _before_ 5th level. But you can't take the Dodge feat at 1st level because it of its prereq. So you can't take Dodge before level 3, but you don't get another feat slot between levels 3 and 5.

A possible solution would be to make a small detour and take one level of Soldier before taking Pirate 5. That would give you the extra feat slot, effectively making Greater Mobility available at character level 11.

Ferocious attack: Ok, I understand this is non-synergic with sneak attack, but wathever, this is a quite strong power. let take the 13th level exemple, with greater mobility, you can get 5 (2 each hand + 1 from ferocious attack) at +6 attack/+6 damages AND +6 initiative so it's almost sure you'll strike first. 5 attack at +6 will kill roughly any character EVEN with uncanny dodge, OR 5 weak opponent. Why not add power attack for some more overkill??? AND you get a chance (and a pretty good one) to STUN for a round every opponent that see you?

First off, in our game we have agreed to "forget" that FA is not compatible with SA, so the Pirate gets to add his Sneak damage to his FA. After all, it's only in the first round of combat.
Of course that means that once he has Greater Mobility, he will most certainly kill up to 7 enemies in the first round unless they have Uncanny Dodge. But, so will the Barbarian. I don't see a problem there.

As for Power Attack, keep in mind that it's usually a bad idea for TWFers because you don't get the damage bonus for the off hand.

The Stun is a pretty cool feature though; I hadn't really looked into it because we never had such a high level Pirate. The DC will probably be around 18-20 and rising, which should be enough for most lower-level fighters any day.

Apart from that, yes, once Greater Mobility comes into play that turns the tide. A balanced T/B will get it only at level 19 or so, so that's definitely an edge for the Pirate on levels 15-18.

 

[treeplanter]

hum, good catch on mobility, I overlooked that dodge need a +1 base dodge. couldn't he take dodge at 3rd and mobility at 5? Otherwise yeah, I agree you need 1 soldier level somewhere before level 5, but I think that worth it

as for power attack, i don't think it is necesserly a bad feat for pirate, it will still work with your primary hand. it is not a must but i don't think it is bad. We allow half PA bonus for light weapon (versus 1.5 for 2-hand) so this match pretty good for both figthing style.

 

[Clovenhoof]

couldn't he take dodge at 3rd and mobility at 5?

Short answer: no.

Long answer:
It's a rule of the SRD that the first thing you have to do when gaining a level is picking a class in which you want to take that level.
So you _first_ choose the class, which means you instantly gain the various boni and special abilities of that class level, _then_ you choose skills (because that's also a feature of the class), and the _last_ thing you do is selecting a character feat.
Bonus feats granted by class choice are taken at the same time, and here it's possible to use one feat to qualify for another at the same level.
(I'm a bit hazy on Ability increases, might be that you pick them before Class, but actually it doesn't make a difference. You increase the Abilities before choosing a Feat, that's important.)

This normally works in the players favour because it gives you a chance to qualify for a feat on the same level. For instance, Improved Critical has a BAB +8 prereq. An 8th-level Soldier can take it, because the BAB increase is applied before the feat selection. Since the rule normally works in the players favour, it shouldn't be turned around for the few instances where this is not the case.

 

[Ichabod]

What you don't want to make of it is a pile of house rules so every class can compete with the Barbarian. You need to tone down the Barbarian class. Me and my mates have tried, it's not an easy task. Any thread you try to pull either takes out something really cool, something really integrated into the rest of the rules, or something necessary for a 20th level character to call himself Conan Junior.

Toning down a class is far, far more complicated than improving a class. All you need to do to improve a class is give it more skill ranks per level if you want a quick and dirty way. Sure, I'd like to make nobility feat based, redo saves for pretty much every class, and whatnot, but quick and dirty fix is better than no fix at all.

I don't find barbarian to be a problem. It's the best class if you want to fight and does other stuff - nature, antifear, and ... uh ... fight some more.

I don't find scholar to be a problem since magic enables doing things that other characters can't.

I don't find thief to be a problem because it's the super-fill-in class that contributes offensively to combat. Though, there is pretty much zero point to taking more than 10 levels of thief and it has pretty awful saves, so it's really more the ultimate multiclass class to get Eyes of the Cat, bunch of sneak attack (if you need it), Skill Mastery, bunch of skill ranks, most comprehensive by far class skill list.

Do these three balance well? At any given time, if you play just to their strengths, probably not. Combat should be dominated by the barbarian, knowing should be dominated by the scholar, and the thief in the party is likely to be strong in an area where the others are weak since it can put skill ranks into things either the others don't get or don't have the ranks for, probably something like social skills in addition to the obvious Open Lock type skills of the game. Can easily have a party where each PC is too good in its field and too dependent outside of it where every scene is unbalanced.

Of course, with larger parties, there's likely to be more overlap. And, there's always building versatility into characters, whether it's having a single specialty that is more easily done by another class or just spreading skills and feats around to cover more bases. Oddly, we achieved a better balance (at least in skills, not remotely in combat) than one would think by accident. Best healer is a barbarian(/thief). Best diplomat is a borderer(/thief), also the backup healer and backup Religion dude. Best sailor for a long time has four levels of soldier and no more than two levels of anything else.

It's the other classes that have one problem or another. This thread has actually managed to stay relatively coherent on what to do about pirates. For me, there's just no payoff to pirate as its combat advantages are narrow and its noncombat sucks.

Rather than beat the dead horse of why the other fighter classes are vastly inferior to barbarian and because I don't see any point to weakening a class when I don't believe that there's a clearly superior class among the three playable PC classes, I would pose the question "Why shouldn't the barbarian have the fewest skill ranks of any class?"

You could argue that thematically any class could have a bunch of skill ranks. By the way, for those who want to argue that soldiers don't need to know jack, I don't buy the idea that soldier is the class of spearchuckers and grunts. Some class needs to represent the class of elite, civilized fighters. I don't see any reason an elite soldier of the ancient world shouldn't be multitalented like elite soldiers of the modern world are supposed to be. And, yes, the class skill list for the soldier is dumb in its brevity.

Mechanically, you don't take anything away from barbarians, they get their 4 ranks per level. You just give everyone else more than 4 ranks per level and make the claim that sophistication has its advantages. People aren't going to stop playing barbarians just because nobles get 10 ranks per level or pirates 6 or other fighters 8. After all, people play soldiers all of the time currently (for hard to fathom reasons) and they are skill cripples.

 

[treeplanter]

But soldier are lot stronger in combat than barbarian

I think the correct skill balance would be something like this:

Soldier: 4 at first +2 per level
Barb, bord, nomad, pirate: 4
Noble, thief: 6
Scholar (temptress?): 8

Also I think Noble should get something in those blank level (3rd, 7, 12 ect) otherwise players get too tempted to multiclass at those level. A fixed bonus feat, some skill bonus, more social ability, whatever, put something.

 

[Ichabod]

But soldier are lot stronger in combat than barbarian

Don't remotely agree that they are a lot stronger. Marginally stronger, possibly. Have more than one combat build, sure, for all that that's worth.

I could point to how the barbarian has a vastly better initiative or how the soldier has to take the much worse Reflexive Parry to even come remotely close to Uncanny Dodge, a feat with two crap feats as prereqs., can't be taken forever, and which is still worse than the best special in the game.

But, it's not likely to matter any. People have different opinions on these things. Sometimes, for good reason. Armor is nowhere near as good in our campaigns. That helps the combat abilities of nobles and soldiers in other campaigns.

People have tried to do crazy one on one fight scenarios between the barbarian and soldier to show something, don't remember what since it doesn't matter since the soldier's problem is that it can't do anything outside of combat. Rather, if you think the soldier is much stronger, I'd offer the question, "When you play a barbarian and combat occurs, do you feel underpowered?"

 

[Spectator]

Wow,thanks for the number crunching on that.
I din't realize the PIRATE that MUCH of a BAD-ASS.
Now I almost want to tone down his attack abilities !?!?!

That was pretty impressive rading the potential asswhooping below.
As someone mentioned earlier we have kept pretty well on topic and I want to thank you guys for that, we have kept it pretty good without some being called a "nazi" so far!

I aggree that thief/barb a pretty power full archetype, no problem here.

However some thing are overlooked when looking at the pirate:

Seamanship: Ok pretty much blank, but with a pirate in a group the GM SHOULD include some seafearing adventure, so the pirate can shine.

Greater mobility: A straith level pirate can get it by 10th level. That is not to be overlooked.

Ferocious attack: Ok, I understand this is non-synergic with sneak attack, but wathever, this is a quite strong power. let take the 13th level exemple, with greater mobility, you can get 5 (2 each hand + 1 from ferocious attack) at +6 attack/+6 damages AND +6 initiative so it's almost sure you'll strike first. 5 attack at +6 will kill roughly any character EVEN with uncanny dodge, OR 5 weak opponent. Why not add power attack for some more overkill??? AND you get a chance (and a pretty good one) to STUN for a round every opponent that see you?

Just imagine the pirate boarding the Barb/thief ship and stuning the crew for a round? pretty much over.

Or he encounter a mixed party of 13th level, win initiative (thanks ferocious attack) kill 2-3 of them (the most dangerous for him) with MD (+4 strenght, +6 ferocious, +9 power attack for a +19, stun the 2-3 other and sneak attack them to dead in his next round? Yes it his unlikely. but it is possible. wich other class can do that alone? Maybe a scholar with some kind of spell.

I think you guy just dismiss Ferocious attack like it's an useless power, but it is not. There is ton of situation where sneak attack is useless, but ferocious attack is godly.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Concerning Power Attack for the Pirate, I'd like to hear your opinion:

Can Power Attack be used with Finesse?

As I said previously, Pirates should usually skill for Dex to become a Dodge tank and fight with Finesse weapons, relying on Sneak for damage.
Of course a Pirate is gonna have Str 13+ to qualify for PA, no problem there.
I also think it wouldn't throw the balance as Finesse attacks are always more difficult (adding DR to Defence) so the amount that could be safely pumped into PA is limited.

Evidence we have:
The description for Power Attack in the core book (1E) reads "melee attacks". However, we don't know if that's deliberate or if they simply forgot to clarify the feat after adding in the Finesse mechanism.

Potential implication:
If you read PA to specifically _only_ apply to Str-based Melee attacks, TWF with PA becomes worthwhile. You simply use Melee PAs with your main hand and use Finesse with your off hand. The off-hand attack is not a melee attack in that sense and thus the PA penalty wouldn't apply to it.

Personally, I think it should be possible to combine Finesse and PA. You still aim for the chink in the armour, but put much more thrust into it, decreasing your accuracy. But I'd like to hear your opinion about it.

 

[Ichabod]

While inherently nonsynergistic, sure, they work together.

I'm quite used to declaring "finesse attack, PA for 5, fighting defensively" for incredibly nonsynergistic badness.

 

[treeplanter]

@Ichabod:

The answer is no, Barbarian (and Borderer and Nomad, and even Noble and Pirate and Thief) are nowhere close to underpowered in combat. But I think if you take all in account, Soldier perform better than the barbarian in combat. But as as you said, it's the only thing he can do.

@Clovenhoff

I dunno, in my exemple I was talking I was think no finesse. I don't think it specified in the rule that you can't PA with finesse, so I guess that is fine, you "finesse a bit less but strike harder".

 

[Clovenhoof]

@treeplanter: Of course, especially when he catches the baddies flat-footed he doesn't need to use Finesse even if he's Dex-heavy. But the question just arose. Was not intended to disprove your scenariol.

Combat Power:
Let me put it that way: I'd much rather fight against a soldier than a Barbarian. Depending on the Terrain, Borderers and Nomads are either fodder or really bad news. I mean, Borderer in Forests or mounted Nomads on open ground are _much_ more fearsome than Soldiers in my book.
As a rule of thumb, Barbarians are the worst-case scenario wherever you are.