Pirates

[treeplanter]

You mean as NPC? that is the opposite for me. Soldier NPC are likely to have heavy armor and be a pain in the ass. You also have lot of feat to make them dangerous, even for high level PC.

Let look at troop of 4th level barbarian VS 4th level soldier. both will have roughly the same number of HP, but the Soldier troop can get heavy armor and weapon spec and higher defense. Assume Strenght 16, Dex 12 and Con 12. So my 4th level barb will look at something like:
HP: 24 Attack: +7 (1d10+3) Parry: 14 Dodge: 14 DR: up to 6 (but unlikely, except Nordheimer). versus
HP: 24 Attack: +8 (1d10+5) Parry: 16 Dodge: 13 DR: up to 10 Special: formation combat

You can also build the soldier mounted combat or give them bow. In the end, their numbers are just better.

 

[Clovenhoof]

@All: sorry for derailing the Pirate thread further and reviving the old "Barb vs Soldier" bout, but treeplanter here needs to be taught a lesson :twisted:

Treeplanter, your first fallacy is that you assume an arena situation where both combatants start out in plain sight and aware of each other. That's usually a stupid thing for PCs to do.

As we know Soldiers have crappy skills and thus you can sneak up on them (something we do _all the time_ in our game). They have crappy Ini and lack Uncanny Dodge.
This in combination means that you (as non-Soldier) will most certainly get the jump on them, so their Defense won't be 16 or 20 or 40 but _10_ for the first few attacks (surprise round plus first regular round). Even better, unless the Soldier has Combat Reflexes you can hit him and then move away while he is still flat-footed, and with your Light Armour you're faster then he in medium or heavy armour. He'll have to charge after you in order to hit you and that lowers is Defense.

Keep in mind that Reflexive Parry is not available before level 12 for the Soldier, and level 18 for any other class that might need it.

Also, DR10 at 4th level is rather unlikely - that's your second fallacy. That's at least 950sp just for armour! -- a 4th level NPC Soldier should not have that much. The typical DR for a soldier that level is 6 or maybe 7, which costs 140 to 240sp (scale something with hat). The same DRs are possible for Barbarians (though they'll usually go for Light Armour wherever possible). In both cases, a Str 16 character can easily pierce those armours with a 5sp Battleaxe.
A higher level "Legionary" soldier might have something like DR8, but usually not more. After all, _somebody_ has to pay for all that armour.

All in all, looking at your 4th-level duel, the Barb will get in 1 or 2 attacks versus Defense 10, then force the Soldier to charge, hit him again against Parry 14 (good chance there), and all in all get in up to _three_ hits, piercing armour every time, where the soldier gets in only one hit. With a bit of luck (and Power Attack) those three hits can suffice to turn that soldier into food for crows.

At medium levels, and before the soldier gains Ref Parry, the odds get tilted further in the Barb's favour because he gets iterative attacks while the Soldier still is flat-footed, and the chance to trigger MD increases, so the Soldier's chances to even _get_ to act diminish ever further.

I could go on like that... sure the Soldier gets a bag of tricks, and if played right he can certainly cause trouble, but that doesn't help him if he's killed before his first action.

 

[treeplanter]

Well in the idea you wanna throw NPC at PC group (of mid level of course otherwise they'll get crush by either the barbarian or soldier). I'm not talking about a 4th level PC barbarian agains a 4th level PC soldier because previous thread pointed that is useless anyway as it depend too much of the situation and the build or both character.

1. Skills worth nothing here. Neither the barbarian nor the soldier will is likely to ambush the PC as their skills will be much lower. In either case the PC are likely to act first anyway (but a bit more against the soldier I concede).

2. Black dragon are 4th level soldier with plate armour, how come? NPC soldier are likely to be part of a large military organisation. Actually it is more dependant of the region the soldier come from.

So, in the common situation were I wanna throw a large number of foes against higher level PC, soldier are a much better challenge than any other class imho.

 

[Clovenhoof]

2. Black dragon are 4th level soldier with plate armour, how come?

What? Where does it say that, some regional box I presume? Whoever wrote that didn't do their math homework or is plainly out of their mind, and if I had spent money for that book I would be seriously pissed off.
Number one, Plate Armour has to be custom made for the wearer, which takes several months, and that's simply not gonna happen for a Soldier.
Number two, one suit with helmet costs about _seven thousand silver pieces_, that's about seventy frigging POUNDS of silver in coin (heavier than the armour itself!!). Nobody in their right mind would spend that kind of money on half-ass-trained grunts.

Nobles I can see; even for them 70 pounds of silver is going to be quite a stretech, but if they expect to see fighting they will probably invest in it. But a hired soldier that could simply run off and sell the stuff on the black market, for more money than he could earn in a lifetime of soldiering, and live happily ever after? No way.
(Just for completeness sake, if those ominous "Black Dragons" are supposed to be some elite body of knights or royal bodyguards [I honestly can't remember right now], the equipment may be justified but they ought to be _much_ higher level than fourth. More like 10th, give or take.)

Soldiers being part of a large military organization is a reason _against_ them having awesome equipment, not for it. There's a saying among soldiers, "Always remember that your equipment was made by the lowest bidder".
There's no reason for a king to spend a million silver pieces on outfitting 150 soldiers with the best equipment possible if for the same amount he can outfit 4000 with decently effective but much cheaper equipment. Talk about cost efficiency.

On another note,

1. Skills worth nothing here. Neither the barbarian nor the soldier will is likely to ambush the PC as their skills will be much lower. In either case the PC are likely to act first anyway (but a bit more against the soldier I concede).

You're right, but I was talking more of the PCs ambushing the NPCs than vice versa. If it's a decent group they'll also manage to surprise NPC Barbarians, no argument there. It just won't help a lot because the Barbarians can defend themselves just fine even when surprised.

 

[treeplanter]

Aquilonia Flower of the west, p. 175.

Sorry it's a 5th level soldier actually, my mistake.

HP: 42; Initiatie: +6; dodge 13; Parry: 16 on foot, 20 mounted. DR: 12/11 (plate armour + visored helm)
heavy lance or greatsword + 9; str 16 dex 12 con 16 int 10 wis 12 cha 8
feats: Improved init, mounted combat, ride by attack, spirited charge, weapon focus (greatsword, heavy lance), weapon spec (greatsword, heavy lance). formation: Heavy infantry.

 

[treeplanter]

Also just for a side note, for me when we speak of a TROOP of 5th level soldier, 5 is a pretty high number. 10th level are more likely to be commander or capitain.

To make a link with the pirate thread, imagine a ship with a 200 strong 10th level crew. That would be just plain ridiculous. you're more likely to have a high level capitain, some important crew member (maybe level 3 to 10), and a bunch of 1-2 levels critter.

 

[Ichabod]

Not completely unrelated to pirates ...

You can't compare PCs to NPCs. There are vast swaths of this game that are fine for NPCs that PCs should just ignore, whether it be most of the races, many of the classes, most of the feats, most of the sorcery, most of the equipment, or whatever.

I don't, for instance, have any problem with the idea of NPC borderers. Borderer is strictly inferior to barbarian for PCs because PCs don't just hang out in one terrain all of the time to where many of the borderer specials don't do anything versus the frequently high quality barbarian specials, but NPCs may just do that.

NPC soldiers are great since they have virtually no skill ranks you spend way less time speccing them out. And, since you don't care whether they drown, you can put them in any armor you want.

NPC pirates (to get back to topic somewhat) should see Seamanship kick in all of the time and damage output is less of a concern than using ship terrain to drown all of your enemies.

I often lament having created an archer character because archery bites for PCs, but it's just fine for NPCs who can number in the hundreds and bring enough volume to eviscerate a party in one volley (something like this happened in one of our sessions).

And, so on.

 

[kintire]

As we know Soldiers have crappy skills and thus you can sneak up on them (something we do _all the time_ in our game). They have crappy Ini and lack Uncanny Dodge.
This in combination means that you (as non-Soldier) will most certainly get the jump on them

And this is your first fallacy, when considering Soldier as a viable class. First, they are not obliged to be single class, and secondly they are in a party. You seem to be demanding that soldiers be good at everything: they are combat specialists. They will not be easily ambushed, because they will be travelling with scouts. Or have some levels in high skill classes themselves.

All in all, looking at your 4th-level duel, the Barb will get in 1 or 2 attacks versus Defense 10, then force the Soldier to charge

Except he won't, because the Thief with maxed spot travelling with the soldier spotted him hours ago, and the soldier has just been holding his action waiting for the gullible oaf to dash within range...

That's why PCs travel in parties. And what about the Barbarian vs the maxed sneak and spot Soldier/Thief? Messy.

 

[Clovenhoof]

@Ichabod: thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to say. A PC group will usually encounter Borderers, Nomads and Pirates in their respective favoured terrain where all their class boons kick in. Which can make them a very fearsome opposition.

For instance, Borderers and Nomads gain movement boni which allow them to use hit and run tactics and stay out of the PCs range indefinitely. Especially if the Nomads are mounted and the PCs are not, but also works when both sides are on foot. And as well if the Borderers operate in difficult terrain whose penalties they may ignore but the PCs cannot.

Also, Pirates, Borderers and Nomads get defense bonuses in their favoured terrain, bringing their defense up to par with Soldiers, or in case of the Pirate even higher if he skills for Dex.

To make a link with the pirate thread, imagine a ship with a 200 strong 10th level crew. That would be just plain ridiculous. you're more likely to have a high level capitain, some important crew member (maybe level 3 to 10), and a bunch of 1-2 levels critter.

Of course. Well, the exact levels will depend on the campaign style and the way the world is perceives; for instance I'd make most of the Pirate crew level 3-4, but generally lower than a unit of Soldiers. That's because most of the pirates are a bunch of lowlifes with no formal training, they all have to learn it the hard way, death comes quickly and as quickly are the casualties replaced.

This can be NO comparison for a supposed elite body of knights. I'm still not sure if these troops _and their equipment_ is Conan canon, but even if it is, you always have to take Howard's descriptions with a grain of salt because he didn't know the Conan RPG system. Often when he writes "great sword" he clearly means a one-handed sword (possibly a war sword in game terms), and if he describes a bunch of troops in "plate armour" this might be represented better by Breastplate in game terms. That's already way more expensive than I would ever spend on troops when a Brigandine a sixth the price will work just as well, but whatever.

I'm willing to accept the king's personal bodyguard having Plate Armour (because it's a handful of elites), and also independent noble knights heeding their liege's call to arms, but definitely _not_ a fielded unit of pay-receiving soldiers that the PCs may run into any day. I went through all the numbers in my last post and I stand by what I said.
One reason why I'm getting so heated over this is that outfitting random NPCs with impossibly expensive equipment is just screwing over the players ("you can't hurt my random mobs, nyah nyah") and nothing more.

 

[kintire]

Of course. Well, the exact levels will depend on the campaign style and the way the world is perceives; for instance I'd make most of the Pirate crew level 3-4, but generally lower than a unit of Soldiers.

I rate the world from 1-5. 1 is competent, 5 is as good as any group will get. Anything higher than that is heroic. Its very dangerous to declare levels "unrealistic" because assumptions vary so much.

This can be NO comparison for a supposed elite body of knights. I'm still not sure if these troops _and their equipment_ is Conan canon,

ish. The Black Dragons are Conan's personal household knights. I don't think they are ever described in detail in the stories though.

you always have to take Howard's descriptions with a grain of salt because he didn't know the Conan RPG system. Often when he writes "great sword" he clearly means a one-handed sword (possibly a war sword in game terms), and if he describes a bunch of troops in "plate armour" this might be represented better by Breastplate in game terms.

That's a bit of a canard: Howard knew his stuff. He uses quite technical descriptions of people's equipment:

the squires stripped Valannus of mail shirt, burganet and leg-pieces, and clad him in Conan's armor of black plate-mail, with the vizored salade, and the dark plumes nodding over the wyvern crest.

Note that a King wears full plaate armour. A Captain of spearment, mail shirt with plaate helm and legs.

 

[Clovenhoof]

The Black Dragons are Conan's personal household knights

@kintire: thanks for the heads-up.
That fits in with what I've been saying all the time: I'm fine with the King's personal bodyguard or suchlike having the best possible equipment. (But likely they are nobles themselves and can pay for their own shit.) But NOT any random troops on hinterland patrol duty, like treeplanter wants to make us believe.

A Captain of spearmen, mail shirt with plaate helm and legs.

That's much more like it for regular troops. Presuming they used the RPG equipment list, this would mean they placed high value on their spearmen's mobility, outfitting them with light mail shirts rather than cheap scale corselets or more protective brigandines.
(I'm also assuming that the captain does not get special equipment, but surely that argument could be made either way.)

I rate the world from 1-5. 1 is competent, 5 is as good as any group will get. Anything higher than that is heroic.

By "group" you mean NPC groups, I presume? Well that's certainly a way to look at it, and we agree that this topic is highly subjective. I consider 1st levels as "raw recruits" and 3rd level as "trained". (We also start our games on level 3 as a rule.) In my games the PCs rarely encounter combatants below 3rd level from the very beginning. In the game I currently play in, the 4th-level soldier platoon seems to be par of the course so far (we're level 9 now). The average will probably go up because we like challenging fights a lot more than wading through scores of 1st-level mobs. All in all, it's simply a matter of group tastes.

 

[treeplanter]

I took an extreme exemple with the black dragon, but there is other soldier group that are likely to have heavy armor (not necesserly full plate tough).

Ashurri, Nemedian adventurer or elite troop. Don't forget their equipement is not necesserly THEIR property, but might be provided by the landed-noble or their recruiter.

It like you think every random NPC encountered follow the same rule that a PC does. they don't. PC are heroes taking high risk to attain fame or wealth. NPC are just common folk doing their job.

So if i create a squad of heavy cavalry (2nd-3rd level soldier), i'll just give them a damn heavy armor. I'll not count how much cash a 2-3 rd level pc shall have. Anyway the party equipement varies more according to the situation than their cash (we don't keep track off cash in the game.)

 

[Clovenhoof]

I took an extreme exemple with the black dragon, but there is other soldier group that are likely to have heavy armor (not necesserly full plate tough).

Sure. No objections there.

Ashurri, Nemedian adventurer or elite troop. Don't forget their equipement is not necesserly THEIR property, but might be provided by the landed-noble or their recruiter.

Yup. Which is exactly why it's going to be cheaper. Even elite troops have to fear the power of the red pen.

It like you think every random NPC encountered follow the same rule that a PC does. they don't.

Depends on what you mean by "follow the same rule". NPCs of any given level are usually weaker than PCs of the same level, otherwise _they_'d be the heroes roaming the continent in pursuit of fame and fortune, instead of serving some sovereign for three silver a day.

So if i create a squad of heavy cavalry (2nd-3rd level soldier), i'll just give them a damn heavy armor. I'll not count how much cash a 2-3 rd level pc shall have.

Considering that there are no wealth-by-level rules or guidelines for Conan as there are for D&D, that goes without saying. You just need to use a bit of common sense when statting out NPCs. If that squad of heavy cavalry belongs to an army of 20.000, these all need to have their equipment paid for by someone. Not even the king gets stuff for free. Of course heavy cavalry needs thick armour, but it's much more likely to be a Scale Hauberk with Steel Cap instead of a Mail Hauberk and Breastplate with Great Helm.