Physical Runes in the Third Age

[Rurik]

Many people on this board seem to think that Rune Magic as described in MRQ is confined to the Second Age (and there is a blurb in G:tSA that could be taken to support this).

I am not so sure I believe that. The idea that Mongooses take on battle/common/spirit magic was a Second Age GL thing made sense to a RQ'er new to the system.

Up until RQ3 spirits were the source of 'spirit magic' but it was a form of magic used by all types of practitioners. That model doesn't make sense with the expanded view of the otherworlds as evolved in the HeroWars/Quest games, now that RQ is back in print a new explanation for how common/spirit/battle magic works. The universal physical runes that any kind of practitioner is as good a solution as any to solve that problem*. As such, I would think if you accept the changes to Glorantha from HW/HQ as presented in the MRQ source books then rune magic as presented probably survives into the third age.

* OK, whether it is a 'good' solution is debatable as many seem to dislike it - but the point that the RQ2/3 take on common magic no longer makes sense is still valid.

 

[Voriof]

Of course, it begs the question as to how good a model the MRQ system is for reflecting Gloranthan magical realties, particularly in the Third Age.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

But for all of us RQ'ers who want to play in Glorantha is is worth trying to get that peg to fit through that hole. :wink:

 

[simonh]

Rurik,

I'm not really sure I understand your argument. If we do accept that Runes are presented in MRQ existed in the 2nd Age I'd say yes, kepp it all consistent for the 3rd age as well. I don't think Mongoose intended the MRQ magic systems to be purely a 2nd age thing, I think they're intended as a comprehensive and consistent rethink of Gloranthan magic for RQ.

Having said that, I don't find it particularly satisfactory. I agree with you that the RQ3 system, while IMHO a significant improvement on RQ2, was still a bit ungainly and uneven. The best approach would be three completely seperate systems for Malkioni, Theist and Animist magic (with Mysticism as a bonus extra!). RQ3 came part of the way with a completely independednt ssytem for Sorcery, but theists and animists still used a hodgepodge of divine magic and spirit magic.

IMHO the way to go would have been a reworking of Divine Magic, perhaps along the lines of the Rune Points system proposed in 'Tales of the Reaching Moon', or perhaps combining some elements of the old Divine and Spirit magic systems into a hybrid. In fact, MRQ goes some way towards this.

Animism would be handled using a new system of summoning and integrating spirits to gain magical powers, or sending spirits against enemies instead of casting spells. You wouldn't cast Befuddle at an opponent, you'd send a Befuddle spirit after them. With an improved spirit combat system a la RQ4 (but more streamlined with a quick resolution mechanic) this could really work.

 

[Voriof]

Good points. If I was going to run a RQ style game in the 3rd Age, I'd want to have a good long sit-down-and-think-about-it.

Jeff

 

[Trifletraxor]

Rurik,

I'm not really sure I understand your argument. If we do accept that Runes are presented in MRQ existed in the 2nd Age I'd say yes, kepp it all consistent for the 3rd age as well. I don't think Mongoose intended the MRQ magic systems to be purely a 2nd age thing, I think they're intended as a comprehensive and consistent rethink of Gloranthan magic for RQ.

I have BIG problems seeing "Rune Magic" as a comprehensive and consistent rethink of Gloranthan magic. It feel very little thought through at all.

Having said that, I don't find it particularly satisfactory. I agree with you that the RQ3 system, while IMHO a significant improvement on RQ2, was still a bit ungainly and uneven. The best approach would be three completely seperate systems for Malkioni, Theist and Animist magic (with Mysticism as a bonus extra!). RQ3 came part of the way with a completely independednt sytem for Sorcery, but theists and animists still used a hodgepodge of divine magic and spirit magic.

Mhm... you mean to drop spirit magic for those worshipping gods all together? Worth a thought, but would need some balancing work.

IMHO the way to go would have been a reworking of Divine Magic, perhaps along the lines of the Rune Points system proposed in 'Tales of the Reaching Moon', or perhaps combining some elements of the old Divine and Spirit magic systems into a hybrid. In fact, MRQ goes some way towards this.

TotRM #?

SGL.

 

[Rurik]

Rurik,

I'm not really sure I understand your argument. If we do accept that Runes are presented in MRQ existed in the 2nd Age I'd say yes, kepp it all consistent for the 3rd age as well. I don't think Mongoose intended the MRQ magic systems to be purely a 2nd age thing, I think they're intended as a comprehensive and consistent rethink of Gloranthan magic for RQ.

Having said that, I don't find it particularly satisfactory. I agree with you that the RQ3 system, while IMHO a significant improvement on RQ2, was still a bit ungainly and uneven. The best approach would be three completely seperate systems for Malkioni, Theist and Animist magic (with Mysticism as a bonus extra!). RQ3 came part of the way with a completely independednt ssytem for Sorcery, but theists and animists still used a hodgepodge of divine magic and spirit magic.

IMHO the way to go would have been a reworking of Divine Magic, perhaps along the lines of the Rune Points system proposed in 'Tales of the Reaching Moon', or perhaps combining some elements of the old Divine and Spirit magic systems into a hybrid. In fact, MRQ goes some way towards this.

Animism would be handled using a new system of summoning and integrating spirits to gain magical powers, or sending spirits against enemies instead of casting spells. You wouldn't cast Befuddle at an opponent, you'd send a Befuddle spirit after them. With an improved spirit combat system a la RQ4 (but more streamlined with a quick resolution mechanic) this could really work.

I'm really kind of muddling two seperate points together. Let me try to clarify:

Many people (and bugs) who have disliked rune magic have mentioned on this board that it is their impression that the physical rune thing is a Second Age thing and so will go away with the God Learners. There is even a passage in G:tSA that can be taken to support this as follows (see page 8 under Runes):

The current techniques for using runes, to gain powers and learn spells (also called common or battle magic) were codified by the God Learners about 200 years ago.

Some say their disruptive explorations of the Hero Plane have caused a dramatic increase in the quantity of rune objects leaking through into Glorantha. If the God Learners fail, or their techniques stop working, it is likely that adventureres of future ages will have to go back to older, more difficult methods of acquiring common magic.

That seems to support the possibility that rune magic as presented in MRQ is indeed specific to the Imperial Age. Of course, battle/spirit magic as presented in the rules of RQ2/3 is hardly "more difficult" to cast than MRQ rune magic.

I think many people see the new rune magic as change just for the sake of changing something that was not broken. Which brings me to my second point:

Spirit Magic as presented in RQ3 does not make sense in Glorantha any more. Now that we have distinct otherworlds for the different magic types it makes no sense for common magic (supposedly the same for all types of practitioners) to be based on the spirit plane.

So as I see it now 'common' magic had to change from RQ 2/3 to fit the current understanding of how Magic in Glorantha works.

All of this is just to say that I have come to the conclusion that rune magic is indeed a re-envisioning of common magic for RQ and that therefore would apply in the third age as well as the second.

Or at least that is what I think now, my opinion could change in the next 700+ years.

 

[simonh]

I have BIG problems seeing "Rune Magic" as a comprehensive and consistent rethink of Gloranthan magic. It feel very little thought through at all.

Not just Rune Magic, but the complete set of magic systems taken together. I think Mongoose intended them to be considered as a whole.

Mhm... you mean to drop spirit magic for those worshipping gods all together? Worth a thought, but would need some balancing work.

TotRM #?

I can't give a TOTRM reference, but basically the idea was that Initiate one-use rune magic would actually be regainable, but only by participating in major cult ceremonies. e.g. You might get back 1 Point worth of spells on a seasonal holy day, 2 points at a cult holy day and 3 points at the Sacred Time ceremonies. Nice because it gives a real benefit to attending the ceremonies, and means the cult will be more powerful at these times, without seriously affecting game balance.

Spirit Magic as presented in RQ3 does not make sense in Glorantha any more. Now that we have distinct otherworlds for the different magic types it makes no sense for common magic (supposedly the same for all types of practitioners) to be based on the spirit plane.

I agree that seen as 'Spirit Magic' it doesn't, but it's a simple and familiar game mechanic and it would be a shame to lose it completely.

I can see two ways to rehabilitate Spirit Magic/Battle Magic. one would be to make it a Divine Magic Lite only available to Theists. Another would be to make it the system for Common Magic, available to all.

 

[Deleriad]

I must admit that I don't think RuneMagic as presented in MRQ fits in Glorantha. I can see it as something specific to the Second Age due to the God Learners messing with the cosmos.

The reason why is that, to me, magic as presented in RuneMagic is a fundamental revisioning of how mortals interact with runes. Previously in Glorantha canon (not necessarily old RQ but more things like KoS, the unfinished works and so on) the Runes were part of the deep structure of Glorantha and mortals interacted with them only through the Gods, great spirits and so on. In MRQ, Runes feel more like power-ups.

I wouldn't say that RQ3 is a great model either: spirit magic fits ok for Shamanistic traditions but was awkwardly shoehorned into cult magic. If I ever get around to running MRQ I plan to drop integrated runes and runecasting.
"Rune Magic" will be learnable through cults where it is cast using Lore (Specific Theology). and
via Shamanic practices and the array of charms and fetishes and cast using Summoning.
Integrated runes will be done away with entirely, same with the concept of charms being the same as integrated runes.
Finally, I could see Rune Magic spells being labelled with multiple runes (think gmail and labels rather than email folders or, perhaps, spells can be tagged with various runes). It wouldn't have any great relevance on game play but would help justify certain Rune Spells being spread widely while some are very specific.

 

[simonh]

I wouldn't say that RQ3 is a great model either: spirit magic fits ok for Shamanistic traditions but was awkwardly shoehorned into cult magic.

I see it the other way around. Spirit Magic was just renamed battle Magic, which never had anything to do with spirits in RQ2, and little or nothing to do with them in RQ3, other than notionally learning them by defeating a spirit, which was usually not actual played out in the game anyway. Mechanically, RQ 3 Spirit Magic is just Divine Magic Lite anyway.

IMHO animist magic should involve actually using summoned and bound spirits to directly cause and power magical effects.

 

[Darran]

I would say that you get physical runes in the 2nd age, plenty of experimentation with spells and intergration.
In the 3rd age no physical runes but you get spells from spirits that were the rune spell casters in the 2nd age.

 

[Arlaten]

Hi…I feel like a bad penny popping up whenever this subject is mentioned. But I am trying to put together a RuneQuest game using MRQ or a modified version of the MRQ and in this thread and another one, I see a lot of talk about how the concept of magic has changed. Where are you guys getting that idea?

I have read and re-read the material on Runes in GtSA. For those who may not have the Glorantha setting guide here is the quote I am referring to (p.8):

“The objects of magical essence called runes, from which adventurers wring their Rune Magic, are physical manifestations of the True Runes, symbols of cosmic power. All beings capable of dispensing magic are tied to one or more of these cosmic forces, whether they be gods, demigods, or great spirits.

The current techniques for using runes, to gain powers and learn spells (also called common or battle magic) were codified by the God Learners about 200 years ago. Some say that their disruptive explorations of the Hero Plane have caused a dramatic increase in the quantity of rune objects leaking through into Glorantha. If the God Learners fail, or the techniques stop working, it is likely that adventurers of future ages will have to go back to older and more difficult methods of acquiring common magic.”
Glorantha, the Second Age
Robin Laws

In RuneQuest 2:

To be cast effectively, many spells require a focus. This focus is a carved rune of some sort which acts to tie the conscious and the unconscious minds together so that the spell works…the normal focus used is a wand…has enough area on it for about 20 foci to be carved…a staff could easily contain all spells listed in the spell table…Certain spells …could have their focus carved or cast into a ring so as to be readily available during combat…The focus for a weapon-affecting spell is usually a weapon it is intended to affect.
RuneQuest 2
Steve Perrin and Ray Turney

In addition, if the God Learners fail, and the system described in RuneQuest 2 is used in the Third Age, won’t that be more powerful magic? Because the RuneQuest 2 rules provide rules for casting spells without the focus, and in addition not all spells require a focus to cast. Isn’t that more powerful than having to rely on a rune object?

And in addition isn’t the same method of using a focus described in Spirit Magic in Runequest 3?

"All spirit-magic spells require a focus to be cast. A focus can take many forms, most commonly those of trinkets or medallions bearing an appropriate rune of power, or it might be a rock, a bone, a claw, etc. The focus serves as a reminder and token of the spell. Contact with the focus, whether visual, tactile, or through another sense triggers the release and formation of the individual magical energies and makes the spell work."
RuneQuest 3
Steve Perrin, Greg Stafford, Lynn Willis, Sandy Peterson, Steve Henderson, Warren James

The rules do not state that spirits are the spells, but the magic is triggered by runes that apparently emanate the power of the True Rune. I thought it was called spirit magic because an initiate or shaman could summon spirits that actually had spell-like abilities that could be released at a designated time. It seems just like the MRQ to me. The MRQ Monster Manual gives descriptions for Magic Spirits, Disease Spirits, Healing Spirits, Passion Spirits, Pain Spirits, etc. and Shamans have the ability to trap spirits, possess others, etc.

My question, to anyone out there who will comment on the issue, is what is the difference between a rune object and a focus? Neither are True Runes, and both focus the some of the power of a True Rune through the object or focus. Has Spirit magic changed from RuneQuest 3 to MRQ (except for the terminology)? What could the God learners possibly have to do with it if there were a change? What system would the inhabitants of Glorantha have to go back to that isn’t the same or easier than what is presented in the MRQ rules and Glorantha setting?

The only differences I can see ( Rune Integration, Rune Touched, the little bonus given to skills for runes of varying types, and the fact that the focus must always be used to cast a spell-same as RQ3) do not seem to affect the concept of magic or the magic system significantly over what was published in previous editions. All magic seems emanate from True Runes and all common magic requires a focus (with a runic inscription or a runic power), just as before.

Do you think the rune integration requirement is too, strict, or am I missing something else?

If I am missing something that I possibly haven’t read yet, or if I am misunderstanding something, I would like to know.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Do you think the rune integration requirement is too, strict, or am I missing something else?

Yes, it is too strict. Matt & Co. introduced it because they wanted to create a real reason why this game was named RuneQuest, but I am not sure it is a Good Thing. And I am not alone.

Welcome among us, o Great Meldek of Old Pavis I really liked your synopsis between RQ2/3 and MRQ. It was illuminating. I appreciated it even thoug I am an Arkati.

 

[Arlaten]

I agree with you. Common magic should not be so difficult. However, the rules regarding "runes" which were referred to as magic crystals in RuneQuest 2 had a similar rule.

"Just as the bones of dead gods provided Glorantha with bronze, the blood of dead and wounded gods provided crystals. These are marvelous items and are being found all time...The only way to tell if a crystal is powered is by attempting to attune to it...To attempt this attunement, a character must give up the attunement of any other crystals he may have already attuned, because the attunement will not work otherwise... to attune to a crystal, the character must overcome the magic resistance of the crystal. This takes 1 week. The attack is resolved as if the character had thrown a spell at the crystal. If the attack is successful, the character has attuned to the crystal. If he fails the attempt he will lose POW as in the POW loss table (1-60 lose 1 point, 61-90 lose 2 points, 91-00 lose three points)."
RuneQuest 2
Steve Perrin and Ray Turney

I would just make the 'runes' of Sprange's system fill the function of magic crystals which would allow the minor bonus to a skill plus POW points and POW storage, and the ability to bind a spirit into one, and go back to the spell focus idea of earlier editions to fill the function of the 'runes' in Sprange's system then. It's not difficult to change and it would work much better, it seems.

 

[Deleriad]

The only differences I can see ( Rune Integration, Rune Touched, the little bonus given to skills for runes of varying types, and the fact that the focus must always be used to cast a spell-same as RQ3) do not seem to affect the concept of magic or the magic system significantly over what was published in previous editions. All magic seems emanate from True Runes and all common magic requires a focus (with a runic inscription or a runic power), just as before.

Do you think the rune integration requirement is too, strict, or am I missing something else?

If I am missing something that I possibly haven’t read yet, or if I am misunderstanding something, I would like to know.

For me it is the requirement of rune integration allied with the bonus for rune integration that makes MRQ RuneMagic seem qualitatively different from RQ2/4 Battle Magic, RQ3 Spirit Magic. In RQ2-3 you learned a spell and then created a focus through which to cast it. In MRQ you must integrate a rune first (or create a charm) otherwise you cannot cast any spells based on that rune. In MRQ, Runes are external objects that you must find while as the spell focus in RQ2-3 is something you can create out of anything appropriate.

It may seem like a fairly minor point but it does have a huge implication for the world's mythology. If you must integrate a rune before you can cast rune magic then you making a strong statement about the user's relationship with magic. It is saying that although you can be taught how to cast a spell you can't cast it without the aid of an external item and that these external items cannot be made only found and then used.

The issue for me is that this does not seem to reflect the relationship between magic, mortal and rune that I thought existed in Glorantha. Generally, magic has emerged through the relationship between mortal and otherworld being. On the other hand, the benefit from rune integration seems to be more akin to a minor heroquest than finding a rune in the wilderness.

Speaking outside the frame, I think that basically Rune Magic was hacked together in order to fit the game name. Speaking inside the frame, I could see MRQ rune magic, possibly, as a feature of the God Learners' effects on Glorantha and envision that the fall out of this is what we see in terms of magic in the third age. Speaking really outside the frame, integrated runes look like a contrivance to attract MMORPG and D20ers who want power-ups and feats in their games. Speaking for me, I don't like rune integration and I don't like legendary abilities so I will simply remove them from myRQ.