Photon Torpedos

[McKinstry]

Its taken a few games to figure them out and they are still a strange mistress. Unless your opponent has a complete lapse in judgment you might as well abandon looking for that overcharged Torpedo Shot. It is as rare as a bucket of prop wash!

Agreed. Playing for an overload shot is a sucker bet. IF the other ship has moved first and IF with your movement limited to 6" because of choosing the overload shot you are still within 6", it can be sweet but it relies on the other guy parking something within 'kill me now' range and still requires you to be sure he isn't setting you up for a killing counterstroke as you butcher the sacrificial lamb.

 

[storeylf]

You are wrong you have 33% chance to hit period. There is no 50 % chance its one roll dude. I have 2 attack dice I have 33% chance to hit and a 16.67% chance to bypass the shields that 50% number is hogwash and dirty math.

It's not hogwash. A 5 hits a shield and a 6 leaks, so half your expected hits bypass shields. You need to get your head around that fact to understand why photons are good.

A disrupter hits more often but it does half the damage, and most of that damage is to shields. Shields exist precisely to prevent hull damage and crits, shields can be readily repaired/boosted (except by half the klingon fleet!). The fact that most of the lower disrupter damage hits shields is one weakness. The fact that disrupters are the worst crit inflicting weapon in the game is their other weakness. Every other weapon (phasers, photons, drones and plasma) in the game either has precise or devastating, so they deliver twice the crit level as disrupters.

at the end of the day you are still telling me I need to be super lucky for them to do well that just doesn't cut it when you can have a consistently good weapon like the disruptor.

I certainly do wish other would stop saying that its all good when you get that lucky strike against X, Y o Z, it really doesn't help explain why photons are good.

You are not looking to be lucky or super lucky.

Unless you are playing a really small game or a 1 vs 1 you are just after averages and basic probabilities, not lucky strikes. If you are playing a 1000pt game then you are probably looking a about 24 photons give or take. On average your fed force will take out a klingon cruiser at range 15, that is a lot more than the klingons will do unless they get super lucky. You may well take out a cruiser with photons alone, add in the phasers and it will be unlikely that you fail to do so.

 

[MarkDawg]

I am playing small games 1v1 with a fed squadron box and Klink Squadron box.

 

[archon96]

having started out the same way with 1v1 or 500point games with just a squadron box, this game doesnt start clicking right until about 1000points or above. what we did when we only had a squadron was play with dreads i know they kinda blow for low point games but with lumbering gone they do play better.

 

[McKinstry]

I am playing small games 1v1 with a fed squadron box and Klink Squadron box.

Your playing area should be 4x4 and you should average 2-3 of the sixteen 12x12" areas that constitute the playing area filled with asteroid fields, dust clouds etc. Try playing the 'Explore a Strange New World' scenario under those conditions and see if the Feds don't get a better shake.

 

[JohnDW]

@markdawg

Just the fact that you didnt know what the guys were talking about when they said that 50% of 'on target' photons are penetrating shields tells me that you haven't played enough
done.

You are wrong you have 33% chance to hit period. There is no 50 % chance its one roll dude. I have 2 attack dice I have 33% chance to hit and a 16.67% chance to bypass the shields that 50% number is hogwash and dirty math.

You seem thick. What they are saying, is when you roll to hit and need a 5+ to hit, you will hit on a 5 which will hit shields, and hit on a 6 which will go through the shields, so you miss 66% of the time all together, hit 33% of the time all together, but 50% of the time when you do hit, you bypass the shields

They're not saying you hit 50% of the time, they're saying that 50% of your hits will go through the shields, actually read what they're typing and think about it.

 

[MarkDawg]

@JohnDW I get what they are saying John but they are looking at that situation way far on the sunny side with dirty math that makes no difference when you roll those attack dice in game. You sir are a fool and you should read my posts before rage posting.

My issues with the 50% number is it miss characterizes the real situation while I understand the point I disagree with how they represent in this thread.


Good Day

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I would hardly call the 50% figure "dirty math", although I do consider it a bit of a red herring.
Look at it this way:
Your target is the hull and associated crits, not the shield.
Photon torpedos put 1/6 of their hits direct to target, then multiply them by 4. Any crits caused are then also doubled.
Disruptors put the same 1/6 of hits direct to the target, but then only double them, and don't have any bonus to crit causing at all.

Basically, disruptors need a second turn attacking their target to (nearly) keep up with photons, whilst the enemy continues to return fire/repair/otherwise react to the situation. Photons on the other hand have delivered 2 turns worth of damage in the 1st turn of firing, silencing enemy ships before their time. This frees up the ship for other roles (such as init sinking) whilst their torps are reloading - they aren't tied to attacking the enemy just to keep the damage up.

 

[archon96]

Ok i dont know you look at it or how you do then math, but for it works like this. I fire 4 torpedoes from a single ship at 15 inchs, of those 4 if they hit then they have a 50%chance of passing through the shields. Because at 15 inchs the only to numbers on the dice that matter are five and six. If you get the 6 bingo through the shields. The only thing i care about is that at least one torpedo hits. With that 1 torp i roll four more dice of those four dice all i care about is that one of them rolls a 6. any ship taking two crits right of the bad is in trouble depending on the ship 4 hull hits can be problematic. The problem i have with disruptors is if my opponent is running reinforce shields up until he gets within torpedo range im never going to bust through his shields with disruptors, and even the few shots i do sneak past are not enough to bother him too much. Yes reload sucks but if i didnt have to reload i would crush you like a bug. And watch out for the Jersey variant Kirov who has 2 torps to use will hes reloading the other 4.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

First of all, i thought you'd got it wrong in regard to Photon's, MarkDawg (I have stated before that i think they might be overpowered with Devestating, but it's what they have, so i live with it). Then you made the the comment about '1 v 1' games. ActA doesn't work at that level, it's a fleet level game - and yes, in that environment photon's are bad weapons without a lucky strike (plasma's aren't much better, at least Romulan's can sneak up on you).

As has been stated, ther systems the rules use click in around the 1000pt mark (i think a 500-600pt, 4 ship per side will work), as you have the numbers to even out the 'lucky' and 'unlucky' strike rolls. As said, 24 Photon's across a fleet give someone a very bad day (the problem that arose from drones wasn't that they didn't actually work as a system - it was down to the when the system handles the long range and free targetting involved. Drones could hit (almost) any ship on the table, with any amount = dead ship). Photon's, though requiring rolls to hit and with less range, are still a force mulitpler when fired in bulk. And the leak at long range is lethal for a weapon you can't stop (why i felt them overpowered - a 1 in 6 change of a leak for 4 damage is bad, but when the actual hit rate (i know it's 16.7% or something) is you hit shield 50% or leak 50% - with devastating criticals, well - more effective than Plasma ?)

Play a few fleet level (1000pt +) games, and you may see where the 'photon's are golden' view comes from. And remember, they are Federation standard heavy weapons, but the Ph-1's on a Fed ship are probably more dangerous than the photon's - to an enemy, anyway (Gorn may have a similiar amount of Ph-1 to Fed's, but Fed's have way better arcs - they only lose out if your using the 'bank fires defensively rules', as you lose the whole bank to shot down 1 drone (we house ruled that defensive banks could split fire though the turn, though you have to 'empty' a bank if able before starting on a new one)).

 

[MarkDawg]

Oh you misunderstand me not 1v1 meaning one ship vs one ship meaning 1 squadron box vs one squadron box.


And to all about the 50% thing okay I get it move on.

 

[deadshane]

I know! How about we all keep resorting to name calling over this game of toy space-ships!

Either that or we can stop all the haite over which grown men fire their laser beams and pew pew at other ships better than the others....

Sheesh.

 

[Sgt_G]

For what the math is worth to anyone:

If you fire four Photons at a target, there is a 48.23% chance that you will not get any "6" for shield by-pass. There is a 38.58% chance of rolling one "6" for penetration, a 11.57% change of rolling two "6" for penetration, a 1.54% change of rolling three "6", and a 0.08% change of rolling all four "6" for penetration.

Taking the math further, if you fire four Photons at a target, there is a cumlutive 69.70% chance that you get NO critical hits, there is a 19.62% chance of getting one critical, a 7.96% chance of getting two crits, a 2.12% chance of three, a 0.48% chance of four, a 0.10% chance of five, a 0.017% chance of six, a 0.0026% chance of seven. The chances of getting eight or more criticals is 0.0004%, with the odds of getting sixteen criticals being only 1 in 2,821,109,907,456. But of course, you first have to roll four "6" on four dice, for which the odds are 1 in 1,296.

So, when firing four Photons at a target, you only have a 30.30% chance of getting ANY critical hits. If they're overloaded Photons, the chance goes up to 42.18% for getting one or more critical hits.

 

[The Big D]

For what the math is worth to anyone:

Taking the math further, if you fire four Photons at a target, there is a cumlutive 69.70% chance that you get NO critical hits, there is a 19.62% chance of getting one critical, a 7.96% chance of getting two crits, a 2.12% chance of three, a 0.48% chance of four, a 0.10% chance of five, a 0.017% chance of six, a 0.0026% chance of seven. The chances of getting eight or more criticals is 0.0004%, with the odds of getting sixteen criticals being only 1 in 2,821,109,907,456. But of course, you first have to roll four "6" on four dice, for which the odds are 1 in 1,296.

quote]

Just a quick one. Since the photons have the devastating +1 trait, the odds of getting 1, 3 or any odd number of criticals is 0% as they only occour in pairs :wink: !
I assume you mean the odds of 2 crits are 19.62%, 4 crits 7.96%, 6 crits 0.48% and so on.
That makes 32 crits possible but on the 1 in 2,821,109,907,456 :shock:

I heard a joke the other day. Theres a vulcan, a scottsman and a russian in a torpedo bay....

Geoff

 

[Captain Jonah]

a 0.08% change of rolling all four "6" for penetration.

OK it doesn't happen that often but its fun when it does. :lol:

Besides which 0.08% suggests it happens once every thousand times, it happens far more often than that when people are firing at me :roll:

 

[Sgt_G]

Capt J,

It should happen once every 1,296 times. Okay, so it's happened to you more than it should. But just think, if the odds start to even out for you, it shouldn't happen again for a long long time.

 

[Sgt_G]

Big D,

Yes, you are technically correct in that each Photon-induced crit is a two-level crit. But I don't like saying it the way you did, that the crits are in pairs, because someone new to the game might take that to mean you roll twice on the crit chart for each "6" rolled on the damage chart.

The numbers I posted counted how many "6" were rolled, not how many crit-levels were caused.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Capt J,

It should happen once every 1,296 times. Okay, so it's happened to you more than it should. But just think, if the odds start to even out for you, it shouldn't happen again for a long long time.

Nonsense. As a very wise man once said. Probabilities and percentages are the universes way of messing with your head. :lol:

Its like rolling 18 on 3D6 for a D&D stat, it will happen at least twice between 6 players :roll:

A million to one chance will happen at the best or worst possible time regardless of how likely it is. :wink:

Mr Prachett himself has said words of wisdom on the subject.



Then the Vulcan Says "Ensign Andrayovich clearly said fire the woton out of the number one tube"

 

[deadshane]

Played a game last night.

1000 Feds

DNF
CA
CA
FFB
FFB
FFB

VS.

1005 Klingons

D7C
D7
D7
D6
D6
D6

Opening Federation shot was an FFB at range with Torps. 6,6,2. That Cruiser, a D7, was crippled at the end of the turn thanx to the rest of the fleets' fiyahpowah. This was at extreme photon range. It spent the rest of the game trying to make it to the board edge to escape. It failed to make it due to escalating impulse criticals and a pursuing DNF late game.

All federation ships were able to fire two volley's of photons, all but two FFB's. Klingons were unable to escape FA of the ships due to a combination of impulse criticals and some lucky dice on HET's.

At the end of the game, one D6 Warped out...all other Klingon ships destroyed. Two Federation FFB's and one CA destroyed.

Feds are not underpowered. However, against a fleet as easy to use as Klingons, you better know what you're doing, and you need to get those Photon shots off!

Photons are deadly....and are game winners.

 

[Nretnimoc]

Deadshane,

nice post! How did the DNF work without the Lumbering now? I havent had a chance to field mine yet since the errate change. (I know its little off topic)

As for all the math, nothing ruins a game more for me then building fleets to optimize your percentage to do something. Just feels like it saps all the fun and enjoyment of the game out.