Photon Torpedos
- Thread starter MarkDawg
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Greg Smith
Mongoose
storeylf said:
Absolutely. The I-go-you-go mechanism counters that with bigger games.
MarkDawg said:
Ah well. So play the klingons then. Just if you can't figure out how to use them effectively isn't reason to boost them. That would result in overpowered federation in hands of players who know how to use the photon's.
Sure 1 photon isn't wondershot that kills klingon dreadnought in one shot. But that's why feds are packing a lot of them. Getting crits from photon's in federation isn't about luck. It's simply laws of average.
Also try a scenario such as Rescue, Recon Run or Explore A Strange New World where the Klingon has to go somewhere or do something instead of just dance around. Towering Inferno makes him come to the resuce as well.
Any scenario that anchors a player to geography and limits his ability to simply dance, offers you a better chance to get those front arcs.
Navies fight for a specific mission far more often than just bump into each other and shoot.
Any scenario that anchors a player to geography and limits his ability to simply dance, offers you a better chance to get those front arcs.
Navies fight for a specific mission far more often than just bump into each other and shoot.
MarkDawg said:
you have brought zero evidence that shows they are underpowered. EVIDENCE says otherwise.
If you boost them significantly you will result in seriously broken fleet.
But then again looks like that's what you want. Overpowered fleet where you can swipe any ship from the battle with single phootn.
Nope. It's otherway around. YOU haven't provided any evidence, just complaining without any solid proof to back it up.
Your the one concentrating on small dice amounts with your "but it takes 6 followed by 6". Well duh. there's a REASON why fed fleets are easily packing 20-30 photon torpedoes in smaller games! But when you hit you get world of hurt from them.
Fed fleet in smallish 1000 pts game can easily expect 2 devastating crits when they fire up from photon's alone.
If you aren't satisfied with that then nothing short of "destroy dreadnought from one salvo from one ship" will.
'
It needs because you can't use it effectively? So let's give players who can broken fleet with which they are unbeatable. Yeah that's smart idea.
MarkDawg said:
Then practice the game more
Simple solution.Wouldn't suprise me if he kept wasting their potential by hanging on to them until he can get point blank overloaded shot. Sure way to lose against...Well anybody who isn't total rookie. Maybe works against somebody new to game who is in TNG Klingon "in your face" mindset but against anybody who knows what to do that doesn't work. You never get that optimal turn and just waste tons of damage and criticals you would have inflicted in the 4-5 turns you kept photon's unfired waiting for "that perfect chance".
@tneva82 I have brought evidence you just don't want to look at it.
1. 15 inch range puts you in close so the next turn you are in kill zone range
2. @ 15 inch range you only have a 33% chance to damage the shields of a klingon player that he will get to reduce by 50%
3. Klingons turn so fast you will always be facing the front arch
4. You only have a 16.67% chance to penetrate the shields and then you need additional 6 to do any real damage.
5. You can't fire Photons in the next turn
7. If you do want to fire them it costs in power drain
I think they need a range buff.
See tneva82 these are facts meaning evidence
1. 15 inch range puts you in close so the next turn you are in kill zone range
2. @ 15 inch range you only have a 33% chance to damage the shields of a klingon player that he will get to reduce by 50%
3. Klingons turn so fast you will always be facing the front arch
4. You only have a 16.67% chance to penetrate the shields and then you need additional 6 to do any real damage.
5. You can't fire Photons in the next turn
7. If you do want to fire them it costs in power drain
I think they need a range buff.
See tneva82 these are facts meaning evidence
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Just a couple of points.
And so is he - of your precise phasers.
MarkDawg said:
And so is he - of your precise phasers.
You are thinking one-on-one. Move your other ships to catch his side shields.
But unlike other weapons, if you penetrate, you get 4 chances to do that 'real' damage. Heck on smaller ships - 4 through the shields is a lot of damage without a crit.
So what, kill zone only applies to phasers, and Feds have better phaser suites than klingons.
Actually it is a 16.7% chance of damaging shields, the other 16.7% ignores shields.
Again, so what. First off only klingons get the good front shields, against the majority of other empires that is irrelevant.
Secondly, as I explained before, the strength of photons is not their hit rate and shield hitting ability, it is their leak and crit delivery.
Are you only playing 1 vs 1 duels or other small games, in larger games this is not true.
You just need to roll over 1 to do real (non-repairable hull) damage. Klingons with their weaker hulls hurt when leaks come in.
You need a 6 followed by 4 chances to roll a crit, that is 52% chance of 1 or more devastating crits after you roll a leak.
Neither can plasma.
Photons do twice the all important hull and 4 times the crits levels as disrupters, that is why they fire half as often.
Go back and look at my other post. The balance is blindlingly obvious. Disrupters do the same leak hits, twice as much non-leak hits but half as much crits over a 2 turn cycle, That is pretty balanced. However, photons do their bang in one go, that is far better than spreading it over 2 turns. Shield hits are also easier to repair than crits, especially on a Fed who has the better shields and hence better boost shields action. That is compensated for by longer range on disrupters.
If you close the range to 7.5 then disrupters are relatively worse than photons, as the leaks and crit rate are exactly the same, but the photons double the shield hits where as the disrupters only gain a 50% increase.
No it doesn't. Where do you get that from?
also how are you positioning youre ships. I like to run my frigates out front as a picket, then if he jumps past them to get out of front arc, hes now in the front arc of my kirov. This makes them think a lot about how they move. you shouldnt just line all of youre ships up and go. formats play alot in this game as well. When i played my son last i used two formations of klinks each one had a d6,d5,d5w and spaced them i was able to force him to break his format and come at both groups, i would have done better but he was having a good day at firing photns at 15 inchs and getting them past shields almost every time he hit.
Let's keep this simple.
1- Given that all of the Mongoose playtesters to weigh in so far plus the majority, if not all other posters on the forum so far, feel that photons are OK as is, Mongoose isn't going to change them.
2- Given that ADB has to sign off on any changes and ADB is requiring (rightly) that characteristics in FC and SFB be as similar as possible to the ACTASF version and photons in ACTASF do generally match FC and SFB , ADB wouldn't sign off even if Mongoose wanted a change, which they don't.
This space might be better used talking about how to better tactically employ photons as they are currently constituted.
1- Given that all of the Mongoose playtesters to weigh in so far plus the majority, if not all other posters on the forum so far, feel that photons are OK as is, Mongoose isn't going to change them.
2- Given that ADB has to sign off on any changes and ADB is requiring (rightly) that characteristics in FC and SFB be as similar as possible to the ACTASF version and photons in ACTASF do generally match FC and SFB , ADB wouldn't sign off even if Mongoose wanted a change, which they don't.
This space might be better used talking about how to better tactically employ photons as they are currently constituted.
Use more ships in your games, that way you can take advantage of the initiative system no matter if you win or lose initiative, so you can line up at least a few ships to hit your opponent hard, might even get to overload some torpedoes.
Multihit 8 is really really really really really nasty.
Multihit 8 is really really really really really nasty.
During ealry playtesting, our group felt the same way about Photons.
But we were playing on a 4x6 map with no terrain and three or 4 ships per side to speed up understanding of the rules.
This invariably gave the Klingons the advantage as they could zip around and around the Federation. Our Fed players rarely got shots that weren't in against the forward shields adn seemed to do little damage when they did fire.
Later, we started using smaller maps with fewer ships and the 4x6 map for the larger batles. We also added in the Mongoose rules for terrain.
We found that even with the agility of the Klingon ships, they often couldn't get a sweet spot shot on a Federation ship because terrain would blosk the LOS. We also found that more ships eant we almost always had a ship that did not have it's forward shield facing us. It's sometimes better to take a slightly longer ranged shot against a weaker flank shield than to pummel the doubled shield neeedlessly.
While I can't (and will not attempt to) speak for everyone, now that we've had almost a year to play with the rules, we've discovered many ways to use the various units to there full effectiveness.
While it's true that the klingons have the shallowest learnign curve and the Romulans the steepest; the Federation are by no means under-power, just over technical. :wink:
But we were playing on a 4x6 map with no terrain and three or 4 ships per side to speed up understanding of the rules.
This invariably gave the Klingons the advantage as they could zip around and around the Federation. Our Fed players rarely got shots that weren't in against the forward shields adn seemed to do little damage when they did fire.
Later, we started using smaller maps with fewer ships and the 4x6 map for the larger batles. We also added in the Mongoose rules for terrain.
We found that even with the agility of the Klingon ships, they often couldn't get a sweet spot shot on a Federation ship because terrain would blosk the LOS. We also found that more ships eant we almost always had a ship that did not have it's forward shield facing us. It's sometimes better to take a slightly longer ranged shot against a weaker flank shield than to pummel the doubled shield neeedlessly.
While I can't (and will not attempt to) speak for everyone, now that we've had almost a year to play with the rules, we've discovered many ways to use the various units to there full effectiveness.
While it's true that the klingons have the shallowest learnign curve and the Romulans the steepest; the Federation are by no means under-power, just over technical. :wink:
scoutdad said:
Page 24 of the rules has suggested table sizes and under 1,000 points, the recommended table size is 4 x 4. Assuming average terrain rolling, two or three areas of asteroids and dust clouds will further compress the battle space which directly limits the Klingons ability to run around. Toss in scenarios that tie them to a fixed geographical objective such as Rescue or Explore A New World and suddenly, they're in your front arc a lot more than before.
@markdawg
Just the fact that you didnt know what the guys were talking about when they said that 50% of 'on target' photons are penetrating shields tells me that you haven't played enough against feds (or competent feds) to really have a good opinion on Photons. You don't even recognise the common mantra of the torpedo.
Photons are fabulous weapons. I realised it from the start. Federation fleets that hit 15" and are able to Alpha Strike your fleet can win the game in a single volley if they get lucky....otherwise they have to weather the storm and try again in a couple of turns. (stout ships and lots of phasers in good arcs help with that)
For the record...I've lost a single game against Klingons with my Feds. Not necessarily b/c feds are a better fleet, but I know how to play the torpedo.
They work...quite well in fact. Even evasive maneuvering doesnt save you against a photon barrage....since they're counting on 6's.
Photon Tactics:
http://www.thetantalusproject.blogspot.com/2012/02/federation-ships-photon-torpedos-and.html
You'll change your tune the first time some fed get's lucky with his CA firing at your dreadnouoght.
If he gets lucky, getting some phaser pens and rolls something like 3,6,6,6 for his photons. (it's happened to me several times...not often, but when it happens it's BEAUTIFUL!)...that ship is done.
Just the fact that you didnt know what the guys were talking about when they said that 50% of 'on target' photons are penetrating shields tells me that you haven't played enough against feds (or competent feds) to really have a good opinion on Photons. You don't even recognise the common mantra of the torpedo.
Photons are fabulous weapons. I realised it from the start. Federation fleets that hit 15" and are able to Alpha Strike your fleet can win the game in a single volley if they get lucky....otherwise they have to weather the storm and try again in a couple of turns. (stout ships and lots of phasers in good arcs help with that)
For the record...I've lost a single game against Klingons with my Feds. Not necessarily b/c feds are a better fleet, but I know how to play the torpedo.
They work...quite well in fact. Even evasive maneuvering doesnt save you against a photon barrage....since they're counting on 6's.
Photon Tactics:
http://www.thetantalusproject.blogspot.com/2012/02/federation-ships-photon-torpedos-and.html
You'll change your tune the first time some fed get's lucky with his CA firing at your dreadnouoght.
If he gets lucky, getting some phaser pens and rolls something like 3,6,6,6 for his photons. (it's happened to me several times...not often, but when it happens it's BEAUTIFUL!)...that ship is done.
One thing I do have to say about klingons is, if you're going to hit their front shields, hit them with an odd number of hits, it will round up in your favor. Or hit them with 1 AD and taunt them as it doesnt get halved 
This can be best accomplished with the smaller ships splitting up their phaser-1's against multiple klingon ships.
This can be best accomplished with the smaller ships splitting up their phaser-1's against multiple klingon ships.
Its taken a few games to figure them out and they are still a strange mistress. Unless your opponent has a complete lapse in judgment you might as well abandon looking for that overcharged Torpedo Shot. It is as rare as a bucket of prop wash!
Initially I bitched about the fact that I had to reload my torpedoes while suffering a power drain to do it. However given the array and the way Federation Arcs are designed for their Phasers, firing nothing but Phasers is not as big a disadvantage as they would be for another fleet I feel.
The point is, dont be afraid to use them. Reload them...use them often. It is what they are there for. The Klingons chip away at you with their disruptors and they can sting. However a good torpedo strike and a lucky penetrating crit and you have ruined their day completely!
*Especially if you get a Dreadnought that gets the long range weapon scanners for their campaign. No range penalty on torpedoes is very nice.
(Just my opinion anyway, based on how my games have gone.)
Initially I bitched about the fact that I had to reload my torpedoes while suffering a power drain to do it. However given the array and the way Federation Arcs are designed for their Phasers, firing nothing but Phasers is not as big a disadvantage as they would be for another fleet I feel.
The point is, dont be afraid to use them. Reload them...use them often. It is what they are there for. The Klingons chip away at you with their disruptors and they can sting. However a good torpedo strike and a lucky penetrating crit and you have ruined their day completely!
*Especially if you get a Dreadnought that gets the long range weapon scanners for their campaign. No range penalty on torpedoes is very nice.
(Just my opinion anyway, based on how my games have gone.)
deadshane said:
You are wrong you have 33% chance to hit period. There is no 50 % chance its one roll dude. I have 2 attack dice I have 33% chance to hit and a 16.67% chance to bypass the shields that 50% number is hogwash and dirty math.
Thanks for the link dude but at the end of the day you are still telling me I need to be super lucky for them to do well that just doesn't cut it when you can have a consistently good weapon like the disruptor.
The thing I can take most from this thread is the majority of the community disagrees with me so I will play test them more.
What everyone is saying is that you have a 1/6 chance of hitting and bypassing the shields - which is all that you really looking for - then each of these that does get through mutiplies into 4 more chances to roll a 6 - which again is what you want.
Most of the time, short or long range is irrelevant as you are looking for the 6's - shield hits are not that important.
It's not that you have to be lucky - you need to maximise your chances of getting through the shields by firing whenever you have the opportunity - saving photons for that perfect short range overload will not help.
Fire 'em and then look to reload - either by moving 6"/pivoting or "just" firing your phasers.
At least one game in the tournament I reloaded several ships several times
Most of the time, short or long range is irrelevant as you are looking for the 6's - shield hits are not that important.
It's not that you have to be lucky - you need to maximise your chances of getting through the shields by firing whenever you have the opportunity - saving photons for that perfect short range overload will not help.
Fire 'em and then look to reload - either by moving 6"/pivoting or "just" firing your phasers.
At least one game in the tournament I reloaded several ships several times
