Photon Torpedos

[Rambler]

You only get a 16.67% chance to punch through shields and the fact that you can only fire it every other turn is a big deal.

All the while hammering away with those Phaser1s and alrenating Shield Regeneration every other turn. You have to take the whole picture in not just the Photons. Photons are a crunch weapon you use to exploit what ever weakness your phasers make then follow up with a lucky drone strike you hope.

 

[Da Boss]

I find that Photons are best used as weapons of opportunity - as has been said - you are really looking for 6's to hit so range is not that important - a photon hitting a shield is annoying - a photo bypassing shields can be devestating - I have experienced them from both sides

 

[MarkDawg]

So if I bypass the shields I still need to roll an additional 6 to get a critical hit so I need a 6 to hit and 6 to do any real damage and then I can't fire next turn and have to deal with power drain. Pretty lame compared to disrupters.

 

[Rambler]

Lameness is in the eye of the beholder. Play with them a while and see what happens.

 

[archon96]

even better wait until some gets 3 photons past youre shields with a battle frigate and youre c7 becomes a full shields up flying brick with half its systems in the 4 crit range.

Good dice rolls are everything, bad dice rolls make ya cry.

 

[The Big D]

So if I bypass the shields I still need to roll an additional 6 to get a critical hit so I need a 6 to hit and 6 to do any real damage and then I can't fire next turn and have to deal with power drain. Pretty lame compared to disrupters.

Yep. But don't forget one roll of 6 to hit with a torpedo results in 4 hits on the hull (8 if overloaded) so thats 4 dice to see if it causes criticals and any 6s rolled on those 4 will each result in 2 steps of critcal damage for the location you then roll. A critical level of 2 on anything but crew can have a fairly serious effect on that ships combat capability.

Fire multiple ships at a single target and the damage can be excessive indeed. But its an odds game. Roll no 6s and nothing happens. Roll 2 and your target is in real trouble! If your whacking it with 12 photons thats not bad odds.

Disruptors have half the multi hit but twice the fire rate.
Disruptors lack the devastating but are more accurate.
disruptors need the target in the front every turn (most ships). Feds only need to keep you in the front on the turns they are loaded.
Klingons are more agile but squishy in the side arc.

And don't forget if you choose phasers only as the power drain when reloading then the empty photons can't fire anyway. If you have PH3s and tractors then depending on the enemy fleet you can do without the (anti)drones too.

That tends to even out and result in differing fleet tactics.

Just my thoughts but I've only played 2 full games so far!

Geoff

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I also seem to remember one of my standard frigates doing heavy damage vs a dreadnought's shields with overloaded torpedos during this last tourney. Granted, I never did get a chance to capitalise on the dreadnought being naked, but it pretty much kept out of the fight after that whilst trying to bring the shields back up.

 

[JohnDW]

Mark is obviously just being negative about photons just to be negative about them, nothing we say can convince him otherwise because he doesn't want to know why they are good, he just wants to see why they are bad.

 

[archon96]

just taking the dread out of the fight is almost better then killing it. especially when its done by a frigate.

 

[McKinstry]

So if I bypass the shields I still need to roll an additional 6 to get a critical hit so I need a 6 to hit and 6 to do any real damage and then I can't fire next turn and have to deal with power drain. Pretty lame compared to disrupters.

You might consider changing fleets. The Klingons and Kzinti are both disruptor fleets and between the two, offer two very different styles of fighting. One of the disruptor equipped fleets may fit your preferred style better than the Federation or either of the plasma fleets.

 

[MarkDawg]

I bought a fed fleet and Klink fleet so I could get people to play me. I have always been a fan of the Klingon's and prefer to play them but when I show people the game they seem to be popular to new players and I let them play whatever they want.

I agree feds are not for me but that is not the point the point is Photons are broken and need fixing bad and make the Federation under powered.

The people that have disagreed with me in this thread have no evidence except saying one time I saw it do tons of damage...

This is not evidence for or against the validity of the weapon they are just stories. The fact is in a wargame dice rolls are too small of a sample size to get average rolls that's why you see wild anomalies. This is why people tell these stories.

The weapon needs tweaking bottom line. Look Lumbering was a dumb rule and they took it out its not the only mistake in this game to be sure.

 

[archon96]

you want evidence, i play klinks against my son and his torps tear me up. yes disruptors hit every turn but with very little punch, a torp passing through your and completely taking out a crit catagory in one shot. the kirov varient with 6 torps is nasty 4 on first turn of engagment and 2 on the second, reload and boom four again. 10 torps in three turns. and hes staying out at 11-14 inchs. i saber dance but his roll are insane. when that happens ouch. personnally i think disruptors suck they have no oh shit factor like a torpedo.

 

[billclo]

I ran a demo game today, and played in it due to lack of enough players. I played the Feds, and got beat again (2 times in a row now).

I kept losing initiative (won 1 time in 5 turns), and my opponent was canny enough to stay at 16" or so. He was plinking me to death with disruptors, and so I had the choice of try to close or back up boosting shields, which probably wouldn't have helped that much.

I went for it, trying to wade into the midst of the Klingons hoping to blast even one ship. I left 2 FF about 8" behind the front 2 ships, hoping to rush them into the flank of an unwary Klingon cruiser. the 2 FF got jumped by a D7 and F5 and were not able to get into photon arcs. EVERY Klingon ship was able to maneuver out of my Fore arc.

The Fed CA when attacked from the flank isn't that impressive. 4 P-1 (2 P-3 held back for drone defense) vs a D7 that easily gets to range 4 and unleashes a 7 phaser RX attack (3 P-1, 2 Waist P-2, and 2 turret P-2) PLUS 4 disruptors. And the CA is firing back into the Klingon's front shield to boot. Recipe for disaster, which is what it turned out to be.

There's got to be a better way; the playtesters seem to mostly agree that the Feds and Klingons are balanced, but so far I've not figured out the magic tactic that'll enable me to actually get target in Fore Arc more than once in a blue moon. Heck, my CA never got a photon shot at all, and the BCH only got a lousy shot (had taken a -1 to hit weapons critical), and needed 6's to hit at all...of course he whiffed all of them.

The only ship that got to reload photons was a single FF, which did a decent job of trashing a F5.

With the BCH, I kept boosting shields, such that the ship drew a ton of fire. What was crazy was that the Klingons kept rolling tons of "6"s such that the BCH was down to 2 internals above being crippled, but had only lost 5 (!) shield boxes.

I have no major problems with the mechanics of Photons per se. What I have a problem with is that the Klingon cruisers get turn 4 AND Agile. I think they ought to be Turn 4, no agile. That might help a little with the Klingons having such an easy time staying out of the Fed's front arcs.

A D7 in SFB is turn mode B, and a Fed CA is C as I recall. While the D7 is more maneuverable, I've found that the CA rarely has a big problem getting the D7 in front arc at even 4-6 hexes. Except for a very close range knife-fight when it can be difficult to achieve a forward arc shot. It just seems wrong that the D7 not only has a shorter distance before being able turn, but it can make 90 degree turns instead of 45 degree turns.

 

[MarkDawg]

I am not a game designer but I don't think it takes one to see that Feds are underpowered ATM. I don't even want to play Feds I want to play Klingon an Romulan. Photons need to 36 range and that would solve a lot of issues. There are other tweaks you could give it range is not the only solution. Something needs to change because vs Klinks I can't see how to players of = skill how a klink player could loose.

 

[McKinstry]

I ran a demo game today, and played in it due to lack of enough players. I played the Feds, and got beat again (2 times in a row now).

I kept losing initiative (won 1 time in 5 turns), and my opponent was canny enough to stay at 16" or so. He was plinking me to death with disruptors, and so I had the choice of try to close or back up boosting shields, which probably wouldn't have helped that much.

I went for it, trying to wade into the midst of the Klingons hoping to blast even one ship. I left 2 FF about 8" behind the front 2 ships, hoping to rush them into the flank of an unwary Klingon cruiser. the 2 FF got jumped by a D7 and F5 and were not able to get into photon arcs. EVERY Klingon ship was able to maneuver out of my Fore arc.

The Fed CA when attacked from the flank isn't that impressive. 4 P-1 (2 P-3 held back for drone defense) vs a D7 that easily gets to range 4 and unleashes a 7 phaser RX attack (3 P-1, 2 Waist P-2, and 2 turret P-2) PLUS 4 disruptors. And the CA is firing back into the Klingon's front shield to boot. Recipe for disaster, which is what it turned out to be.

There's got to be a better way; the playtesters seem to mostly agree that the Feds and Klingons are balanced, but so far I've not figured out the magic tactic that'll enable me to actually get target in Fore Arc more than once in a blue moon. Heck, my CA never got a photon shot at all, and the BCH only got a lousy shot (had taken a -1 to hit weapons critical), and needed 6's to hit at all...of course he whiffed all of them.

The only ship that got to reload photons was a single FF, which did a decent job of trashing a F5.

With the BCH, I kept boosting shields, such that the ship drew a ton of fire. What was crazy was that the Klingons kept rolling tons of "6"s such that the BCH was down to 2 internals above being crippled, but had only lost 5 (!) shield boxes.

I have no major problems with the mechanics of Photons per se. What I have a problem with is that the Klingon cruisers get turn 4 AND Agile. I think they ought to be Turn 4, no agile. That might help a little with the Klingons having such an easy time staying out of the Fed's front arcs.

A D7 in SFB is turn mode B, and a Fed CA is C as I recall. While the D7 is more maneuverable, I've found that the CA rarely has a big problem getting the D7 in front arc at even 4-6 hexes. Except for a very close range knife-fight when it can be difficult to achieve a forward arc shot. It just seems wrong that the D7 not only has a shorter distance before being able turn, but it can make 90 degree turns instead of 45 degree turns.

How big a playing area and how many points/ships involved? What kind of terrain was in place? For the Feds, shrinking the area either through terrain or by having more ships or playing on a smaller table if the point totals are under say 750 makes a difference. If the Klingons are allowed to run around on an uncluttered 4 x 6 table with under 750 points per side, the Feds have a really tough task as those D5 through D-7's are stupid agile but if between terrain and ship numbers those flanks aren't so wide open and they have to play front to front, they'll die like any other.

 

[Da Boss]

I am not a game designer but I don't think it takes one to see that Feds are underpowered ATM. I don't even want to play Feds I want to play Klingon an Romulan. Photons need to 36 range and that would solve a lot of issues. There are other tweaks you could give it range is not the only solution. Something needs to change because vs Klinks I can't see how to players of = skill how a klink player could loose.

Many of the Federation players did fine in the recent tournament -photons are fine. In fact in the game I have played both with and against Federation - they have been very effective and I have no problems firing salvos of them...............

Various people have put forward counter arguments bit if you have convinced yourself they are broken with limited expereince....................

 

[storeylf]

I don't even want to play Feds I want to play Klingon an Romulan.

I have always been a fan of the Klingon's and prefer to play them but when I show people the game they seem to be popular to new players and I let them play whatever they want.

There's your problem by the sound of it, you don't play the Feds so are not getting the practise and experience in actually using them, you are basing your thoughts on how new players are handling them against the empire you have experience in.

I agree feds are not for me but that is not the point the point is Photons are broken and need fixing bad and make the Federation under powered.

On what basis do you make that statement, your theorycrafting on how you think they play, or after playing plenty of times against experienced fed players?

The people that have disagreed with me in this thread have no evidence except saying one time I saw it do tons of damage...

Everyone in this thread has explained how they are good, some have provided anecdote, but a lot haven't. Everyone is saying the same thing, but you are choosing to ignore them.

The perfectly valid points made:

1) Stop fixating on hit chance, it is the ability to do multi-hit 4 devastating leaks (unaffected by hit chance) that makes photons good.

2) Feds are not just photons, they are Photons + lots Phaser1s (the best weapon in the game) + drones.

The fact is in a wargame dice rolls are too small of a sample size to get average rolls that's why you see wild anomalies. This is why people tell these stories.

You don't need anecdotes to see the averages. Work them out yourself.

If a Klink fleet with 24 disrupters faces off a Fed fleet with 24 photons what are the long term averages at photon max range in 1 volley.

Shield hits:
Klink 16
Fed 16

leaks:
Klink 8
Fed 16

Crit levels
Klink 1.3
Fed 5.3 (2.66 crits)

Remember against klinks you need to counter their front shields, that is what you are doing above, You are putting half your damage through shields and hence ingnoring the Klinks special ability. You are also doing massively more crits to the klngons. Look at the Crit chart, 1 in 3 crits by a photon will drop a shield by 10 points straight out, for many klinks that's over half the shield in 1 crit. 1 in 3 photon crits are immediatey escalating, and another has a sort of escalate ( 50% chance of some form of 'escalation'). Also remember every photon crit is guaranteed to do another hull damage, unlike the Klinks.

What happens over a 2 turn cycle. The disrupters equal the hull hits, have double the shield hits, but still only inflict half the crits. What is the easiest thing you can repair in this game? Shields, so doing extra shield damage is the least useful bonus. As with any game like this, having the ability to unload all your damage in one go is better than doing it over 2. The Feds get the chance to react to the disrupter damage each turn (repair, boost shields, move away etc), where as the klinks get clobbered in 1 fell swoop.


Look at what that actually does in killing terms. On average that photon volley has a reasonable chance of killing a D6/D5, has a not unreasonable chance killing of killing a D7/D5W (and will cripple them in any case). Add in the phasers and they are probably more or less certain kills. The Disrupter volley can just about kill a police cutter.


There is no question that Photons in them selves are fine. If you have problem with winning with Feds then you need to stop assuming it is because of photons, that is just one part of Feds. You ask for evidence, but where is your evidence that it must be photons causing the problem you are having. As you seem to imply above, your problem may be more because you are playing new players and you are using the fleet you have had practise with.

Are you playing with enough terrain? terrain is an important part of this game.
What size games are you playing? small games accentuate the klingon manouver edge a lot.

 

[billclo]

I ran a demo game today, and played in it due to lack of enough players. I played the Feds, and got beat again (2 times in a row now).

I kept losing initiative (won 1 time in 5 turns), and my opponent was canny enough to stay at 16" or so. He was plinking me to death with disruptors, and so I had the choice of try to close or back up boosting shields, which probably wouldn't have helped that much.

I went for it, trying to wade into the midst of the Klingons hoping to blast even one ship. I left 2 FF about 8" behind the front 2 ships, hoping to rush them into the flank of an unwary Klingon cruiser. the 2 FF got jumped by a D7 and F5 and were not able to get into photon arcs. EVERY Klingon ship was able to maneuver out of my Fore arc.

The Fed CA when attacked from the flank isn't that impressive. 4 P-1 (2 P-3 held back for drone defense) vs a D7 that easily gets to range 4 and unleashes a 7 phaser RX attack (3 P-1, 2 Waist P-2, and 2 turret P-2) PLUS 4 disruptors. And the CA is firing back into the Klingon's front shield to boot. Recipe for disaster, which is what it turned out to be.

There's got to be a better way; the playtesters seem to mostly agree that the Feds and Klingons are balanced, but so far I've not figured out the magic tactic that'll enable me to actually get target in Fore Arc more than once in a blue moon. Heck, my CA never got a photon shot at all, and the BCH only got a lousy shot (had taken a -1 to hit weapons critical), and needed 6's to hit at all...of course he whiffed all of them.

The only ship that got to reload photons was a single FF, which did a decent job of trashing a F5.

With the BCH, I kept boosting shields, such that the ship drew a ton of fire. What was crazy was that the Klingons kept rolling tons of "6"s such that the BCH was down to 2 internals above being crippled, but had only lost 5 (!) shield boxes.

I have no major problems with the mechanics of Photons per se. What I have a problem with is that the Klingon cruisers get turn 4 AND Agile. I think they ought to be Turn 4, no agile. That might help a little with the Klingons having such an easy time staying out of the Fed's front arcs.

A D7 in SFB is turn mode B, and a Fed CA is C as I recall. While the D7 is more maneuverable, I've found that the CA rarely has a big problem getting the D7 in front arc at even 4-6 hexes. Except for a very close range knife-fight when it can be difficult to achieve a forward arc shot. It just seems wrong that the D7 not only has a shorter distance before being able turn, but it can make 90 degree turns instead of 45 degree turns.

How big a playing area and how many points/ships involved? What kind of terrain was in place? For the Feds, shrinking the area either through terrain or by having more ships or playing on a smaller table if the point totals are under say 750 makes a difference. If the Klingons are allowed to run around on an uncluttered 4 x 6 table with under 750 points per side, the Feds have a really tough task as those D5 through D-7's are stupid agile but if between terrain and ship numbers those flanks aren't so wide open and they have to play front to front, they'll die like any other.

We are using a 4' x 6' table, no terrain to keep things simpler. I think the biggest issue that the Fed cruisers get 2 turns (90 degrees total), but the Klingon cruisers get 3 turns + Agile = 270 degrees of turning. I agree that the Klingons should be more maneuverable than the Feds, but 3 x as much? That would be like comparing Turn Mode A vs Turn Mode D in SFB. No contest. Yet the actual difference in the core games is much closer, Turn Mode B vs C. Nowhere near 3 x the turn ability. Definitely the Klingon should be able to turn tight enough to stay inside the Fed's turns, but it seems excessive right now.

I'll add some terrain to future games and see if that constricts things enough to give the Feds a better chance.

 

[storeylf]

We are using a 4' x 6' table, no terrain to keep things simpler. I think the biggest issue that the Fed cruisers get 2 turns (90 degrees total), but the Klingon cruisers get 3 turns + Agile = 270 degrees of turning. I agree that the Klingons should be more maneuverable than the Feds, but 3 x as much? That would be like comparing Turn Mode A vs Turn Mode D in SFB. No contest. Yet the actual difference in the core games is much closer, Turn Mode B vs C. Nowhere near 3 x the turn ability. Definitely the Klingon should be able to turn tight enough to stay inside the Fed's turns, but it seems excessive right now.

I'll add some terrain to future games and see if that constricts things enough to give the Feds a better chance.

Adding terrain would be useful, use the terrain chart in the book. On a 4 * 6 table you should be averaging 4 areas of terrain. Terrain neuters long range weaponary, and the disrupters don't feel as bad because of their extra range.

I think it is more likely though that you struggle with Feds if the games have few ships. Smaller games really accentuate the klink manouvering, as the feds will not have the ships to make it easier to cover each other.

I came away from my first demo game (on a pretty empty table) wondering how Feds beat Klingons. But as you play larger games you realise that the manouver edge is no where near as game winning.

 

[billclo]

We are using a 4' x 6' table, no terrain to keep things simpler. I think the biggest issue that the Fed cruisers get 2 turns (90 degrees total), but the Klingon cruisers get 3 turns + Agile = 270 degrees of turning. I agree that the Klingons should be more maneuverable than the Feds, but 3 x as much? That would be like comparing Turn Mode A vs Turn Mode D in SFB. No contest. Yet the actual difference in the core games is much closer, Turn Mode B vs C. Nowhere near 3 x the turn ability. Definitely the Klingon should be able to turn tight enough to stay inside the Fed's turns, but it seems excessive right now.

I'll add some terrain to future games and see if that constricts things enough to give the Feds a better chance.

Adding terrain would be useful, use the terrain chart in the book. On a 4 * 6 table you should be averaging 4 areas of terrain. Terrain neuters long range weaponary, and the disrupters don't feel as bad because of their extra range.

I think it is more likely though that you struggle with Feds if the games have few ships. Smaller games really accentuate the klink manouvering, as the feds will not have the ships to make it easier to cover each other.

I came away from my first demo game (on a pretty empty table) wondering how Feds beat Klingons. But as you play larger games you realise that the manouver edge is no where near as game winning.

I think that some terrain will help vs longer range fire, but probably won't help vs Klingons easily flanking the Feds.

I'll try larger games with terrain and see if the results are any better. For sure, I won't be using any DN for the Feds; the CA and BCH have a hard enough time getting targets in arc. Might be better to have 2 NCL or a couple OCL and a POL for the same points.