Photon Torpedos

[MarkDawg]

Okay Please help me out here. How do you use Photons well. Please tell me If I am wrong about how this works because this seems crazy to me.

1. With a 15 inch range I need to be 7.5 inches away ( in kill zone range for many ships) to hit on a 4+
2. The weapon system must be reloaded causing power drain?
3. So at 15 inch range I need 5 to hit?


I think this weapon system sucks ass compared to disruptors Fed seem really underpowered BTW.

 

[archon96]

my son exceles at long range torp hits, with needing a 5-6 to hit you have a 50% chance that if you do hit it bypass's shields. if you launch 4 and only 1 hits and its a bypass it is a bitch. especially with 4 chances to crit with devasting. i got unlucky and had a single torp do 6 damage to dilitium with 3 crit rolls and hit dilitium with each one. And this wasnt on some frigate it was on my d7 which was done after that.

 

[Rambler]

No your not crazy. Photons have always been a finicky weapon. The run joke is they are called the Federations Wonder Weapon, I wonder if they will hit. One thing Photons had going for the was it was a all or nothinv weapon system in SFB. Every other weapon system would degrade in strength over distance. Just remember the when a Photon hits it is highly likley it is going to burn through you opponets shields. (50/50 chancr if you hit at max range) And when it does a Critical it is devistating. I have had a Frigate take out a C8 with overloads in one game. In another I had a CA gut a C7 at range 13. And with the introduction of scout rules if they allow rerolls of weapon system to hit rolls they will be more stories of Photons getting lucky.

The thing you maybe over looking is what really may be the primary Weapon System of their Federation. The Phaser 1 and its rather generious over lapping arcs.

There is also another Firming Mode for Photon Torpedoes in SFB that is not in FC or ACTA right now.
Photons had a more accurate long range version called a Proximity Fuse. This greatly increased the range of Photons by trading half thier damage for them. I am not sure that Feds really need this but it is always aoption to consider if they seem to start getting trashed to often.

 

[MarkDawg]

@archon96 a 5 or 6 is not 50% chance a roll of 4 is 50%

@Rambler I hate to sound rude but I am not asking about SFB or FC. I am talking about Photons in this system. I do not get a 50% chance to hit if I fire at any range north of 7.5 a 5+ is not 50%.

I think this makes the Federation really underpowered this weapon system needs a range buff to 36 and then it would work well.

 

[logical_proof]

@markdawg archon was saying that when you hit at long range with your photons, it is 50/50 on whether it will burn through or not. Which is correct, but it is just a nicer way of saying you have a 17.5% chance of bypassing shields with photons.

They are not unbalanced, they are just all or nothing, IMHO though disruptors are too powerful at range, they should have been given kill zone 12 instead of Multihit 2.

 

[tneva82]

@archon96 a 5 or 6 is not 50% chance a roll of 4 is 50%

@Rambler I hate to sound rude but I am not asking about SFB or FC. I am talking about Photons in this system. I do not get a 50% chance to hit if I fire at any range north of 7.5 a 5+ is not 50%.

I think this makes the Federation really underpowered this weapon system needs a range buff to 36 and then it would work well.

They are talking about half the hits that hit the target being shield penetrating...

It doesn't really make much of difference do you shoot at within half range or over. Okay so you get one more hit per 6 shots. But that's to shields...

Photon's live and die by tossing 4 devastating hits straight through shields. With them(plus 5+ critting phasers) you are generally taking ships out of fight BEFORE they lose their shield. Consequently those short range extra hits are generally just wasted hits as they only dent the shields which aren't that important.

Particulary against klingons btw with their double strenght forward shields. Especially if they have the 20+ shield hulls which repair shields by 2d6. Rather than waste your effort going through double shields just aim to bypass them. Much more efficient.

Photon's are great. When you realize you shouldn't concentrate on shooting only when you have 4+ to hit.

 

[Rambler]

@Rambler I hate to sound rude but I am not asking about SFB or FC. I am talking about Photons in this system. I do not get a 50% chance to hit if I fire at any range north of 7.5 a 5+ is not 50%.

What I said was if you hit at long range you have a 50/50 chance of bypassing shields. With a Devistating Weapon that is huge. As fas as pointing out SFB I was simply confirming that Photon to hit numbers sucked there as well.

 

[MarkDawg]

If I score a hit I need a roll of 6 to bypass the shields how do you get the 50-50?

 

[Stumonster]

Bypassing shields is not a separate roll. You use the to hit roll. So, if you only hit on a 5 or 6, then every hit that rolled a 6 bypasses the shields: no other roll needed. That makes it a 50% chance to bypass the shields for any HIT. Now, getting the hit is the harder part.

 

[tneva82]

If I score a hit I need a roll of 6 to bypass the shields how do you get the 50-50?

Okay let's give very simple example. 6 photons shoot at long range. Ultimate average to hit scores 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

5 and 6 hits.

6 bypasses shields.

1 hit out of 2=50%.

Again it's 50% of HITS.

Shield hits with photons are more of an afterthought. For starters there's no crits on shield hits and crits are what photons live for(the devastating trait kinda gives that away). Particularly against the klingons where it's more than possible that the shields are still healthy by the time ship is blown up.

With the great photon's and all those precise phaser 1's feds are the ultimate crit hunters. Crits need hull hits. As such shield by passing hits are your best friend

And before you say it takes 6 to hit remember you are tossing bucketload of those...Taking 40k analoque orks can be devastating shooting opponents(I have been outshot by orks quite often back when i played 40k...). Sure they have crappy BS but since they are rolling literally bucketload worth of dices when they open up they WILL score hits.

Lootas with their d3 shot S7 long range guns were plain nasty.

Or another 40k analogue. Any deathwing player worth his salt knows the mantra "lascannon kills a terminator but rapid fire kills a squad". 2+ save is all well and good but when you have to make 20 of those things sure get hairy. Deathwings actually prefer to maintain range of about 19"-24"for that reason...

Quantity has quality of it's own. And decreases variance. The more dices you roll the faster it evens out luck element. Give me 12 shots needing 6+ to hit over 4 shots needing 4+ and I'm happier.

(guess I'm an ork player by heart...)

 

[Rambler]

Just went and looked at some charts. You actually have a better chance to hit farther in ACTA. Anything greater than 12+ you only had a 1 in 6 chance to hit in that other system. Pretty much in SFB if you were shooting at anything greater than 15" you traded damage for a better range. Since FedCom and ACTA are streamlined rulesets they got rid of the fiddle rules that allowed a Photon to reach out to 30" which would be 24" in ACTA.

 

[MarkDawg]

Funny On a 5 or a 6 I have a 50% chance funny that is some really dirty math. The fact is this weapon misses all the time and you have to reload it so you don't to fire it every turn and to reload it causes power drain that makes it useless so the Lootaz comparison is way off.

The reality is if I fire from anything more that 7.5 inches away I have like a 33% chance to hit and a 16.67% chance to roll a 6 and bypass shields.

The fact that you have to reload photons and they cause power drain and the lame ass range of the weapon makes suck and IMHO the Feds are under powered. They have a heavy weapon that can't hit the broad side of a nebula and is mid range weapon at it's maximum range in the next turn puts you in Kill Zone of the rest of they enemy ships. Then you have to reload it and diminish your moment or fire power.

The Klingon's can turn better than you makes it so your damage will be halved so I see this as a loose loose for the Feds.

 

[archon96]

go ahead and get within 8 inchs of a plasma chucker and you'll get youre arse ate for lunch. When i play feds as my son showed me ill do long range attacks all day. and power drain isnt as bad a deal as you think. just pick the option that fits tactically for you.

 

[McKinstry]

The Feds have, ship for comparable ship, a much heavier Phaser 1 battery than the Klingons (or anyone else for that matter) and inside the Phaser 1 killzone, Phaser 1's with their +1 precise are better than disruptors. They also generally have more damage points and heavier shields for shield recharge (SA Boost Shields) standpoint while the Klingons are much more agile and have that very nice double front shield.

Photons are a crapshoot weapon. While they only hit 33% of the time at range compared to 50% for the disprutor, they have the same chance of shield penetration as any disruptor and do twice the hits with a Devastating +1 on their criticals. Bottom line is they hit less but are much nastier when they penetrate. The plasma races also have reload issues, their big weapons are subject to defensive fire and other than an R class torpedo, are essentially toothless over 12" so the Romulans and Gorns have their own issues as well.

Klingons seem to be the friendliest (easiest to play) fleet but as the Mongoose tournament last weekend illustrated, the Federation and Romulans can compete and win.

 

[tneva82]

Funny On a 5 or a 6 I have a 50% chance funny that is some really dirty math. The fact is this weapon misses all the time and you have to reload it so you don't to fire it every turn and to reload it causes power drain that makes it useless so the Lootaz comparison is way off.

What I told about quantity...

And yes loota comparison is kinda off. Hit from loota is far less devastating than photon's.

Say all you want but math and proof says photon's are great.

The reality is if I fire from anything more that 7.5 inches away I have like a 33% chance to hit and a 16.67% chance to roll a 6 and bypass shields.

Why would sane federation commander even WANT to get within 8" is good question. All it accomplishes is more wasted shield hits and gets you to kill range of enemy. And if they have plasma you are in world of hurts.

Shield hits aren't that important so getting within 7.5" is pretty meaningless. Only reason to get in up in your phase is overloaded photon's but you need help from opponent to get chance for that so don't count on it.

The fact that you have to reload photons and they cause power drain and the lame ass range of the weapon makes suck and IMHO the Feds are under powered.

Evidence says otherwise.

They have a heavy weapon that can't hit the broad side of a nebula and is mid range weapon at it's maximum range in the next turn puts you in Kill Zone of the rest of they enemy ships. Then you have to reload it and diminish your moment or fire power.

They could hit 4+ at 15" and effectivity wouldn't improve at all. cause it's the shield penetrating hits that count.

The Klingon's can turn better than you makes it so your damage will be halved so I see this as a loose loose for the Feds.

Halved? shield penetrating hits don't get halved. that's the beaty of it. When you fire photon's only concentrate on shield penetrators cause they are ALL that matters. Shield hits are icing on the cake in case your real attacks are unlucky.

 

[tneva82]

Photons are a crapshoot weapon. While they only hit 33% of the time at range compared to 50% for the disprutor, they have the same chance of shield penetration as any disruptor and do twice the hits with a Devastating +1 on their criticals. Bottom line is they hit less but are much nastier when they penetrate. The plasma races also have reload issues, their big weapons are subject to defensive fire and other than an R class torpedo, are essentially toothless over 12" so the Romulans and Gorns have their own issues as well.

Klingons seem to be the friendliest (easiest to play) fleet but as the Mongoose tournament last weekend illustrated, the Federation and Romulans can compete and win.

Photon's are one of the best weapons of the game...

Sure disruptors penetrate same amount but they don't hit with as many hits nor with devastating trait.

If you know how photon's are best heavy weapon from the entire game.

 

[Rambler]

MarkDawg I have played around 40 Klingon/Federation battles and the Klingons do have the edge on number of victories. What is significant is that while the Federation wins just over 40% of those games most of those are over whelming victories where as usually the Klingons have a couple of ships trying to limp home after a long drawn out fight leaving no Fed survivors.

Does the Photon have a minor issue maybe is it a complete game breaking waste of time? No. Its what keeps things interesting.

 

[tneva82]

MarkDawg I have played around 40 Klingon/Federation battles and the Klingons do have the edge on number of victories. What is significant is that while the Federation wins just over 40% of those games most of those are over whelming victories where as usually the Klingons have a couple of ships trying to limp home after a long drawn out fight leaving no Fed survivors.

Does the Photon have a minor issue maybe is it a complete game breaking waste of time? No. Its what keeps things interesting.

If there's issue between those 2 fleets I would either look at klingon hyper agility or even better just tweak the point values a bit

Why alter rules when point values were designed to even effectivity differences between rules

 

[MarkDawg]

You only get a 16.67% chance to punch through shields and the fact that you can only fire it every other turn is a big deal.

 

[McKinstry]

You only get a 16.67% chance to punch through shields and the fact that you can only fire it every other turn is a big deal.

Plasma has no chance to penetrate shields and also has to reload and neither the Romulans nor the Gorns have a Phaser 1 suite comparable to a similar point cost Fed.

The mix of phasers, drones, torpedos, shield strength, hull points and manuverability is a complex one and the none of the fleets can be evaluated solely on a single weapons system or trait. The consensus from most of the players, over time, has been that Klingons are the easier fleet to play and have a minimal learning curve whereas the Feds and Romulans tend to get beaten fairly consistently until players get a lot more experienced. Our first games between the Federation and the Klingons were all Klingon wins but now it is running about 50/50 as we've learned how to play the Federation. Another point of note, at least for us, is that the Federation does much better in bigger battles. Six or seven Klingons running around on a 4x6 table allows their superior agility to become a real asset whereas when that gets to ten or eleven ships per side (particularly if the Feds have an initiative sink advantage), the Klingons have a much harder time staying out of front arcs and maintaining their front shield facings. A Klingon fleet that is down a ship or two in comparitive numbers and loses initiative is a Klingon fleet about to get a ship or two reamed.