Other Periods

[emperorpenguin]

A Contubernium (8 men) throwing pilum into a group of 12 charging celtic Swordsmen however is a different thing all together in gaming terms I feel that the suppression rule could / would work for this very nicely. If we had to change the rule name from suppression to intimidation then I wouldn't quibble overly about it, as long as it worked the same way.

Let's assume that 3 pila miss. 3 hit shields and 2 kill or incapacitate the Celts. That means 3 of 10 are shieldless but it won't stop the Celts from charging which "suppression" does

 

[The Old Soldier]

Using the Evo set of rules for Ancient warfare seems fairly farfetched. This was the age of massed ranks. Disruption, Morale loss, Generalship, were key elements. Better to have a new set of rules built from the ground up. Better yet just play some of the Ancient games already made.

 

[Hiromoon]

Well of course you wouldn't, EP. But there are those that would love to play a skirmish scale game which fits fairly perfectly with the Early Medieval period where you had warbands ranging anywhere from ten people to upwards of one hundred.

Most of these battles didn't last long... either they just beat each other up and called it a day, or after enough casualties one side quits the field.

 

[emperorpenguin]

and I promise you Hiro that if suppression is a feature historical wargames mags will laugh you off the face of the earth...

 

[Poko]

Poko: Funny, the Persians, Babylonians, and Egyptians seemed quite capabale of killing people with arrows, and they weren't using the Mongolian Recurve bow or the Welsh Longbow...

they also had,usually, not much for armour. sure, the elites did posess them,but the common soldiers were armored with shirts and leather shields, with an odd helmet here and there. plus, while they did use bows, it wans't the mainstay of the army, but auxillia or specialized units like charioteers in egypt.
plus-you can kill a man with a bow, sure, if you are a good shot even one in a armour. but not in any reasonable amounts,not unless some very favourable conditions come into play.

A Contubernium (8 men) throwing pilum into a group of 12 charging celtic Swordsmen however is a different thing all together in gaming terms I feel that the suppression rule could / would work for this very nicely.

they would fail to hit every model in the unit,thus no supression. and if they did, they'd either kill the poor guy,or just render his shield useless, not really "pin him down".

 

[Old Bear]

I'm pretty sure that allowing for the fact the pilum is a short ranged weapon that your mob of celts would put the breaks on before the pila were even thrown, unless they were something like gaesati who didn't give a damn.

Once the first pila volley hit, especially those longer-ranged lighter ones carried during the mid-Republic, I'm damned sure that the act of hauling them out of shileds or even simply discarding them would slow up the charge.

I don't know the experience you guys have but I was in every riot worth taking part in during the 80s in the UK, and speed of movement was affected by so many different imponderables. The only consistent thing is that somebody was always waiting for somebody else's serial to catch up.

As for the bad guys. At one big riot of note they broke up an attack by hammering riot sticks on shields, so let's not forget the human element in all this. :wink:

 

[emperorpenguin]

Once the first pila volley hit, especially those longer-ranged lighter ones carried during the mid-Republic, I'm damned sure that the act of hauling them out of shileds or even simply discarding them would slow up the charge.

but the rules would prevent a charge, which is historically inaccurate. Dropping a shield takes seconds

 

[cordas]

A Contubernium (8 men) throwing pilum into a group of 12 charging celtic Swordsmen however is a different thing all together in gaming terms I feel that the suppression rule could / would work for this very nicely. If we had to change the rule name from suppression to intimidation then I wouldn't quibble overly about it, as long as it worked the same way.

Let's assume that 3 pila miss. 3 hit shields and 2 kill or incapacitate the Celts. That means 3 of 10 are shieldless but it won't stop the Celts from charging which "suppression" does

Legionaries where trained to throw 3 pilum (at least)

Now 24 pilum fly towards 12 men

6 miss entirely and bury into the ground harmlessly (roll 1s)

12 hit but cause no "injuries" but trip some swordsmen (those that roll below target but not 1s), others stick into sheilds making them unweildy and force the warriors to discard them as they stop them fighting (cause target armour saves that are successfull).

4 hit targets and fail their armour saves, these have injured the men enough to take them out of the fight.

2 Kill..

I would say that is now a successfully supressed unit, the attackers have lost half their number, the rest have been tripped up, have to discard shields, fight their way over the corpses of their mates.... Its reasonable to say its going to cost them an action to pull themselves back into fighting form.

Yes its a bit different justification needed to modern warfare, but suppression fits very nicely (or intimidation if you want to change the name).

 

[emperorpenguin]

Legionaries where trained to throw 3 pilum (at least) into a charging mass...

.

Really, how when they only carried TWO? :?

 

[Hiromoon]

but the rules would prevent a charge, which is historically inaccurate. Dropping a shield takes seconds

I can assure you otherwise, especially if you got the darn thing strapped to your arm.

Really, how when they only carried TWO?

Extras supplied by the supply Sgt.

 

[cordas]

but the rules would prevent a charge, which is historically inaccurate. Dropping a shield takes seconds

I can assure you otherwise, especially if you got the darn thing strapped to your arm.

Even more so if you have a heavy lump of iron stuck through the shield into your arm.

 

[Old Bear]

Once the first pila volley hit, especially those longer-ranged lighter ones carried during the mid-Republic, I'm damned sure that the act of hauling them out of shileds or even simply discarding them would slow up the charge.

but the rules would prevent a charge, which is historically inaccurate. Dropping a shield takes seconds

The rules would simulate a delay, perhaps of one action if we are intent on using terms familiar to BF Evo.

 

[cordas]

Using the Evo set of rules for Ancient warfare seems fairly farfetched. This was the age of massed ranks. Disruption, Morale loss, Generalship, were key elements. Better to have a new set of rules built from the ground up. Better yet just play some of the Ancient games already made.

It depends on what scale you are playing..... Evo is a ruleset for a skirimish game not for massed battles.

 

[emperorpenguin]

but the rules would prevent a charge, which is historically inaccurate. Dropping a shield takes seconds

I can assure you otherwise, especially if you got the darn thing strapped to your arm.

Really, how when they only carried TWO?

Extras supplied by the supply Sgt.

I've done re-enactment too and it doesn't take long for an unarmoured soldier to let go of a shield

There were no extras Hiro, please don't try to argue from an incorrect position. Two pila would be thrown at onrushing enemies under 30m away and then Gladii drawn. They weren't passed extra pila from the back to thrown indefinitely.......

 

[Hiromoon]

And you can still have Skirmish battles here too. It wasn't always huge warfare.

I mean, Picts vs. Romans near that wall up in Scotland would be a good example.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Once the first pila volley hit, especially those longer-ranged lighter ones carried during the mid-Republic, I'm damned sure that the act of hauling them out of shileds or even simply discarding them would slow up the charge.

but the rules would prevent a charge, which is historically inaccurate. Dropping a shield takes seconds

The rules would simulate a delay, perhaps of one action if we are intent on using terms familiar to BF Evo.

and with enough dice rolls of 2+ your troops are stuck metres away doing nothing for 2 actions....

Look BF:Evo is perfectly fine as a modern combat game but there is NO ruleset I know of that even attempts to cover all periods because they know that it cannot be done! Warfare changed too much.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I mean, Picts vs. Romans near that wall up in Scotland would be a good example.

Which one? :wink:

 

[Old Bear]

but the rules would prevent a charge, which is historically inaccurate. Dropping a shield takes seconds

I can assure you otherwise, especially if you got the darn thing strapped to your arm.

Really, how when they only carried TWO?

Extras supplied by the supply Sgt.

I've done re-enactment too and it doesn't take long for an unarmoured soldier to let go of a shield

There were no extras Hiro, please don't try to argue from an incorrect position. Two pila would be thrown at onrushing enemies under 30m away and then Gladii drawn. They weren't passed extra pila from the back to thrown indefinitely.......

With respect you've not done re-enactment against *real* pila. Throwing a shield away because you want to isn't the same as because you may have to. And with the knowledge that another volley is coming I'm not sure I'd want to throw my shield away. I rather fancy I'd be trying to see if it was serviceable because I know those nasty Italian blokes have those wicked stabbing swords handy. :wink:

 

[Old Bear]

but the rules would prevent a charge, which is historically inaccurate. Dropping a shield takes seconds

The rules would simulate a delay, perhaps of one action if we are intent on using terms familiar to BF Evo.

and with enough dice rolls of 2+ your troops are stuck metres away doing nothing for 2 actions....

Look BF:Evo is perfectly fine as a modern combat game but there is NO ruleset I know of that even attempts to cover all periods because they know that it cannot be done! Warfare changed too much.

Warhammer...

 

[Hiromoon]

I've done re-enactment too and it doesn't take long for an unarmoured soldier to let go of a shield

And again, it's not mere seconds.

There were no extras Hiro, please don't try to argue from an incorrect position. Two pila would be thrown at onrushing enemies under 30m away and then Gladii drawn. They weren't passed extra pila from the back to thrown indefinitely.......

Actually I wasn't I was making a comment which you so gladly put your foot into, and assumed I was arguing from that point. Never Assume, because it makes an Ass out of u and me, though not really me in this case.