Official Traveller Universe or Original Traveller Universe

[kafka]

Matt or other of the Herpestidae family care to wade into a debate occurring over at the CofI...

Will you support for the Original Traveller Universe (a generic SF universe with nods to what has happened before in Traveller) or are you going to be supporting the Official Traveller Universe...with more detailed supplements of the game that was spawned in 1977 something vaguely called the Imperial Campaign? Both, of course, constitute the OTU but I think many fans are waiting for to see more things like Spinward Marches in the works.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Original, not Official.

Official sounds too canon-fascististic.

 

[rust]

Original, please.

There is no Office which could declare a setting Official, "official" in this
context just sounds strange and slightly ridiculous to me - especially if
I have to consider my own setting an IOTU or "In-Official Traveller Uni-
verse" ... too close to Bureaucratese for my taste ... :lol:

 

[mechascorpio]

The moment that Mongoose starts to try to replicate "The Official Traveller Universe" on a regular basis is the moment I stop buying the supplements. I want the game to stay as generic as possible, and to make allowances for a GM and Players to create or re-create any sci-fi setting they wish. For every "Spinward Marches", there should be a "Babylon 5". I've seen what the concept of "canon" has done and is doing to other games, and it's pathetic. I simply don't understand why anyone would want to pay to be spoonfed with an "offical universe", especially when it's already been done.

No matter what, I'll continue to create and play the settings that I want. I hope MGT supplements continue to give me inspiration and guidelines to help me make those games better. They can do so by continuing their tookit approach to Traveller, spice it up with the occasional background supplement that may or may not interest me, and never publish anything that tells me that the way my players and I are playing is badwrongfun. If they stick to that strategy, they'll continue to have me as a customer.

 

[Allensh]

I would like to see Mongoose continue to do books supporting the Original Traveller Universe but I would also like to see books expanding the game into other settings...I am very eagerly awaiting the babylon 5 book, for example.

I like the OTU...I run a campaign set there...but it is not, or should not bem the end-all and be-all of Traveller. In fact, while I would like to see stuff set in other eras, I would prefer to see Mongoose let Avenger or BITS handle that stuff and keep doing stuff that is more useful in a variety of settings.

Allen

 

[Bygoneyrs]

Well I could care less which track they follow, I will buy them "ALL"!!! I would think they should have multiple different tracks and folks just buy what they want and need for their own campaign. You can't please all the people, and someone is always going to threaten to leave or etc if you do this or that, so I would advise Mongoose to just do what you have planned and just put out good products.

Penn

 

[Ishvar]

I don't care a lot about rules, as I am using my own set of rules.

Background sourcebooks are what I prefer, especially in the OTU*, whatever the era.

I am interested in any Science Fiction background though I won't buy any B5 book (I don't like the B5 universe). I will actually consider buying other non OTU* sourcebooks on a case by case basis.

* in OTU, the letter O can mean whatever you want, it don't care at all as far as I am concerned.

 

[kafka]

Sure the "O" doesn't ultimately matter...but it is symptomatic of the approach.

Since many of us, love Science Fiction, we will probably still buy what is offered to us and adapt it. But, the Imperial Campaign (ie the "Official") still has a certain amount of appeal to me. I like the Ancients, the Age of Sail or Steamboats (as it is IMTU), I like Chrome & Grit...Traveller brings that all together.

BITS has done a fine job but I really wish that there would be a concerted effort at creating a visual Traveller Universe that is not what I see in GT. I harken back to the issues of JTAS and Mongoose has steadily improved its look to accomodate that. But, when I do an adventure, I need to feel also a sense of awe and sadly that has been missing in all Traveller products since CT.

Tying to the Official Traveller Universe, at least, establishes some ground rules...players will not be armed with photon guns and disintegrators but face honest to goodness challenges of the environment...even if that happens to be Mithral.

After B5, I will be divided also on which Traveller products to buy in the future...I would not want see another 760 Patrons, as that simply was not the Traveller that I know but more of things like the little I have seen of High Guard.

 

[Ishvar]

I agree with you Kafka, if there is one thing that is lacking in Traveller today, this is a "look" (to the exception of the starships' drawings in the Core Rulebook).

Though I have bought all the Mongoose books so far, I must admit that I am only using Spinward Marches. If the original rules were meant to be generic, what I really like in all this Traveller stuff is the Traveller Universe itself, whatever the era. I don't know any other setting that have such a deep and rich background running over several centuries. I have not been convinced by Gurps Traveller though.

With Traveller 1248, I have the same problem than yours. The lack of drawings and pictures means that it is somehow lacking a distinctive feeling. I must found something different from the other Traveller settings as I am planning to design a serie of small campaigns starting in 1105 and ending in 1248. Each era should have its own "look". And Mongoose does not help me on this ground.

 

[TrippyHippy]

If Mongoose keeps it's rather lousy track record at supporting the Official Traveller Universe (Timeline and all) I will stay away from their books. There is little to no need for "Yet another Generic System", there are quite a few BETTER Generics on the market (GURPS, HERO, Fuzion,...)

Except none of them can do generic sci-fi as well, and as stylishly, as Traveller can. :wink:

 

[EDG]

Except none of them can do generic sci-fi as well, and as stylishly, as Traveller can. :wink:

No, they can do it a lot better.

Want to design a balanced alien race? You can do it in GURPS or HERO (and if you have GURPS Uplift you can even do it right from the race's evolutionary beginnings), but not in Traveller. (T5 apparently has this, but it's the usual nightmare of pages and pages of tables and didn't look remotely balanced or guided from the playtest).

Want to use a wide range of technologies? You can do that in GURPS and HERO with ample support, but Traveller (with the sole and notable exception of TNE's FF&S) always just paid lip service to the idea of other technologies. MGT is a step in the right direction, but we need a leap, not a step.

Want a load of really helpful advice about how to run SF in a variety of different settings? GURPS and HERO give you it in spades, Traveller doesn't give you any at all.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and if you want realistic worldgen? GURPS Space 4e wins hands down. Traveller is now... OK, but only because of the tweaks I suggested that made it into MGT, and even then it only lets you generate the mainworld. But CT and other edition (apart from GT, with First In) totally failed at making realistic systems.

MGT is starting to go beyond that, but all it really does is throw in a few alternate technologies, and while many different setting books may be in the offing, it doesn't give any advice on how to do it yourself.

All Traveller lets you do is run games that are like Traveller. Which is great if you like Traveller, but not so great if you want to go beyond it. I would never in a thousand years recommend Traveller to anyone who wanted to come up with their own setting (I would recommend FF&S though as a standalone product, but that's about it).

 

[rust]

Unfortunately Ben Gunn and EDG are right.

If I had to use nothing but Traveller to create my settings, no GURPS and
none of the many other materials I use, I would have given up on setting
creation and world building long ago.

I really like Traveller very much, and I hope very much that it will "catch
up" and become a truly generic system with all the material required to
enable people to create detailed and plausible settings, but right now it is
still restricted to a very small bandwith of possible settings with not much
depth of detail.

In my opinion Mongoose Traveller made a good and promising start, but
it is still very far from being a good generic science fiction roleplaying ga-
me.

 

[AKAramis]

Matt or other of the Herpestidae family care to wade into a debate occurring over at the CofI...

Will you support for the Original Traveller Universe (a generic SF universe with nods to what has happened before in Traveller) or are you going to be supporting the Official Traveller Universe...with more detailed supplements of the game that was spawned in 1977 something vaguely called the Imperial Campaign? Both, of course, constitute the OTU but I think many fans are waiting for to see more things like Spinward Marches in the works.

It's always been the Official TU to me, and it's the TU I've played in the most.
If Mongoose chooses not to support that TU (and it looks as if they are not going to), then I'm less likely to buy.

The "original" TU was not a TU... tho' a TU developed early, and the 3I setting predates Traveller. (With the game Imperium, ©1974...)

 

[Allensh]

Are we sure that Mongoose won't be supporting the OTU or that they won't be supporting it AS MUCH as some people think they should? I have heard talk about more books for the OTU, including an equipment book, and possibly books on other eras.

Also, Avenger has a license to do OTU materials for Mongoose Traveller, so support will be coming from there.

Allen

 

[captainjack23]

It's an interesting issue - I think Mongoose has been pretty straightforward as to their plans - they certainly see Traveller as a ruleset for multiple settings, many of which are quite compatable with the traveller universe.

So, does that make it generic ? Probably not. there's a lot that the rules don't do well in that regard; and frankly, I'm not sure the hobby needs another "everything can be plugged and played SF ruleset" - on the one hand there are some very successful examples (Hero, GURPS), but tons of failures (not listed in the interest of diplomacy.. Plus, I still like some of them).

I think perhaps the best way to look at what the rules are is that they are a very good toolkit for creating campaigns that are of the "traveller genre". Which is circular, but bear with me.

I'm going to suggest that despite Aramis' correct observation that the universe predates the rules, that the universe certainly began driving the rules almost from day one, and has essentially defined the traveller genre of stories and universes, much as D&D has defined its own genre of Fantasy. Both can link to a large but far from inclusive body of fiction (swords and sorcery, middle earth, comic book conan for D&D) but really define their own set of genre conventions whithin which they work very well. So, Traveller as a rules kit is driven by the imperium in much the same way (and for the same reasons) that D&D is driven by the original campaigns of its founders -Greyhawk & Blackmoor).

Does Traveller do the ITU well ? Yes. Foundation series ? Yes, Poul Anderson classic empires and traders ? Yes. Transhumanist and cyberpunk ? No, not at all. I honestly don;t think it'll ever be successful as a truly generic set, nor do I think it would be worth trying.

D&D is much the same, and love it or hate it, it really has found its own niche and market, and defined its own genre. In many ways, given how early in its field traveller was developed, it isn't surprising that it developed similarly - if not as all-encompassingly.

So, to the point of the thread. I think MG has realized this, and is supporting the traveller genre, and doing it quite well. b5 and Strontium dog are excellent choices that fall well within the Traveller Genre of stories. Are they going to support the ITU ? Yes, as one of the genre; probably more than the others, due to market potential, but certainly less than a pure Traveller house, simply to dispersing the effort across several universes, as it were. Besides, a pure traveller approach would put them in the unplesant position of constantly competing with all the other traveller material ever produced, and editing issues aside, MG does not seem interested in either retreading or trashing the older stuff, and more power to them.

 

[Charakan]

Gotta sya I go for Original, if you write your own stuff it always diverts from "Official", in terms of timeline and how you present events (scuse any bad typing its a half a bottle of vodka post).

I once had an idea from GT that I'd tie the timeline and the alternate timeline together by having charcters from the emperors of the flag era transported into the virus era and attempting to return to the 1100s to prevent the rebellion from happening it sounded epic but I never got it together (there were to many nuclear explosions in the first scenario for one thing after they arrived in the new era).

So I guess original because we all must've diverged the original vision to some degree.

 

[rust]

So, does that make it generic ? Probably not. there's a lot that the rules don't do well in that regard; and frankly, I'm not sure the hobby needs another "everything can be plugged and played SF ruleset" ...
(...)
I honestly don;t think it'll ever be successful as a truly generic set, nor do I think it would be worth trying.

You have got a point there, Captain.

It seems I have to find another word than "generic", because I think you
are quite right that Traveller should not try to become yet another egg-
laying, milk-giving wonder-sheep of the roleplaying world. And this is al-
so not really what I am looking for when I use the word "generic", but I
do not find a better English word for what I mean.

What I am thinking of are both more depth and more options within the
framework of what you called the "Traveller Genre":
More diverse and more updated technology, better world building (I am
looking forward to Scout), a toolbox for the creation of interesting and
plausible aliens and creatures, a guidance for setting creation, and so on -
but tailored to that basic "Traveller Genre" and Traveller feeling, not at-
tempting to cover all of science fiction.

 

[captainjack23]

So, does that make it generic ? Probably not. there's a lot that the rules don't do well in that regard; and frankly, I'm not sure the hobby needs another "everything can be plugged and played SF ruleset" ...
(...)
I honestly don;t think it'll ever be successful as a truly generic set, nor do I think it would be worth trying.

You have got a point there, Captain.

Thanks, luckily when I wear a hat, it doesn;t show ..

It seems I have to find another word than "generic", because I think you
are quite right that Traveller should not try to become yet another egg-
laying, milk-giving wonder-sheep of the roleplaying world. And this is al-
so not really what I am looking for when I use the word "generic", but I
do not find a better English word for what I mean.

I'm always surprised when I run into an english concept that doesn't have fourteen different words to describe it...that seems to be one of them. Modular ? Configurable ? Not really those either.
"internally flexible" perhaps ? YUCK.

Is there a german word that captures it better ? We can start the the notorious english tactic of stealing an reusing a useful word here.



What I am thinking of are both more depth and more options within the
framework of what you called the "Traveller Genre":
More diverse and more updated technology, better world building (I am
looking forward to Scout), a toolbox for the creation of interesting and
plausible aliens and creatures, a guidance for setting creation, and so on -
but tailored to that basic "Traveller Genre" and Traveller feeling, not at-
tempting to cover all of science fiction.[/quote]

Yes, that's what I'd hope is the direction MGT is going, also. I think we'll see its beginnings in the B5 and SD materials.

And, without starting a fistfight or slagging match, it does look like T5 is trying that approach, abeit with less setting specific expansion. Have you given it a looksee ? Its still pretty barebones (not mch sinew text between the bones of the tables and mechanisms) but seems headed that way at a good clip (finally).

 

[Charakan]

Its a good thing that OTU TM is an idea that we all have.

I don't mind that Traveller is a toolkit because that the original traveller universe was a baseline that as a young man was a point of view from 2000AD comics, novels, and all other influences we alll came from.

Marc had a decent vidson for what he percieved his a generic universe to be that had a flavour of what he wanted depending on what the universe could be from a 1977 timeline.

I love the OTU but I like the idea of what you can do with it what you want to.

Its a basis for Traveller if mongoose wan't to to do B5, JD or anything else with the universe their welcome too in terms of their ruleset, their welcome too as long as it fits with my vison of the way I percieve the future I'll incorporate what elements I need and dispose of which ones I don't.
Sorry this is a drunken post but you get what I mean.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Sorry but I have to disagree here. GURPS (with Space) and HERO (with SpaceHero) do it at least as good as the Mongoose-Version of Traveller MIGHT do it some year or two in the future (with all books out). Actually Traveller never got the "universal" part all that great.

Etc...from others too.

If you want to get bored to tears with a point-buy system, obsessed with the minutae of mechanical realism, whopping great lists of traits, and mega-fat genre discussions (as opposed to just providing decent scenarios and adventures), whilst poo-pooing 'un-American' concepts such as the Metric system, then GURPS or HERO may just be the generic sci-fi game systems for you....

Me, I prefer the elegance and simple playablity of Traveller. And I find it totally useful for 95% of sci-fi genres (excepting those I would use Paranoia or Call of Cthulhu for instead). I'd definitely use it for Transhuman or Cyberpunk games, or designing new aliens, as well as a load of other styles and sub-genres. It just takes a bit of lateral thinking at times (like, for example, converting the World Profile stats into alternatively named VR Realm stats). Yes, it's a matter of personal taste, but if you struggle to find generic uses for the game, then that's a shame, but I can.

And the Third Imperium may well predate Traveller, but it was still the original game universe that Traveller used in it's supplements but not in the original core llbs (which were generic). The moniker fits, and has no impact whatsoever upon whatever future developments that Mongoose/Miller chooses for the Imperium setting over the next 10 years. Saying it's 'official', however, implies that any other alternative settings, including your own homebrews, are 'unofficial' and somehow less important.