Official Traveller Universe or Original Traveller Universe

[mechascorpio]

Does Traveller do the ITU well ? Yes. Foundation series ? Yes, Poul Anderson classic empires and traders ? Yes. Transhumanist and cyberpunk ? No, not at all. I honestly don;t think it'll ever be successful as a truly generic set, nor do I think it would be worth trying.

I guess that I, too, must clarify my use of the word "generic". I did not mean to imply that Traveller should be so broad as to try to cover the whole of science fiction. I definitely have no interest in trying to apply the sub-genres of Transhumanist and cyberpunk to Traveller. I wouldn't even want to bother trying to "Star Wars"ize it.

But as it's developing right now, it is certainly suitable for my particular flavors... Asimov's Foundation and Galactic Empire, Piper's Terro-Human Future History, Dune, and especially Niven/Pournelle's CoDominium universe. Even what I call "my golden age Star Trek", that narrow barely-defined period of Trek from 2245 (Robert April) to 2266 (TOS Season One). And I totally dig MGT's potential to pull any of those off better, IMO, than any system out there. If the game and the supplements were to become narrowly focused on the OTU setting and histories already written, it would just lose interest to me. Or, rather, it would feel like Mongoose had decided that they lost interest in me and my business.

So thank to captainjack23 for raising the definition of "generic". If I felt some of the aforementioned games and systems were more suitable or playable, I'd certainly turn to them (and actually, I'm extremely fond of another new kid on the block, Thousand Suns). I guess what I was really trying to say is that I really love MGT so far, and I don't want it to become specific.

 

[rust]

And, without starting a fistfight or slagging match, it does look like T5 is trying that approach, abeit with less setting specific expansion. Have you given it a looksee ? Its still pretty barebones (not mch sinew text between the bones of the tables and mechanisms) but seems headed that way at a good clip (finally).

I will "revisit" it once it is a little further in its development, I think.
The last time I took a look at it I felt somewhat intimidated by what see-
med to be an impenetrable mountain range of tables upon tables upon
tables. :shock:

 

[EDG]

If you want to get bored to tears with a point-buy system, obsessed with the minutae of mechanical realism, whopping great lists of traits, and mega-fat genre discussions (as opposed to just providing decent scenarios and adventures), whilst poo-pooing 'un-American' concepts such as the Metric system, then GURPS or HERO may just be the generic sci-fi game systems for you....

That's exactly what makes them good for making new SF backgrounds though. I can't see how anyone can seriously attempt to make their own SF background without the detailed genre discussions offered in those games, or without a variety of advice on how to build races, ships, world (and traits to build them from) - I've found all that indispensable for making my own backgrounds. I certainly don't see any reason to avoid using them with other games either.

And I find it totally useful for 95% of sci-fi genres (excepting those I would use Paranoia or Call of Cthulhu for instead). I'd definitely use it for Transhuman or Cyberpunk games, or designing new aliens, as well as a load of other styles and sub-genres. It just takes a bit of lateral thinking at times (like, for example, converting the World Profile stats into alternatively named VR Realm stats).

How though?

Traveller has no transhuman tech, and very limited support for cyberpunk. Traveller offers no method for consistently designing aliens either. It also offers no advice for running other styles or sub-genres.

Using Traveller alone means that you have nothing to help you do the work of making an SF background. Using GURPS or HERO means you have all the help you could possibly want, and a lot of that advice is system-agnostic too.

Yes, it's a matter of personal taste, but if you struggle to find generic uses for the game, then that's a shame, but I can.

I really don't think it's anything to do with "finding generic uses" for a game - I think it's more a matter of being willing to use tools that are already available elsewhere. If people want to "go it alone" because whatever background they're coming up with is so amazingly original that no other books could possibly be helpful then I guess they're sorted, but the vast majority of folks aren't that imaginative and would surely find any help to be useful for their needs - so why refuse it?

 

[TrippyHippy]

I guess that I, too, must clarify my use of the word "generic". I did not mean to imply that Traveller should be so broad as to try to cover the whole of science fiction. I definitely have no interest in trying to apply the sub-genres of Transhumanist and cyberpunk to Traveller. I wouldn't even want to bother trying to "Star Wars"ize it.

I do, and I would. All it takes is an adaptation of the core rules, using supplemental material to suit different settings. If you have a supplement for 'Transhumanism' or 'Cyberpunk', then you can include all the relevent details and rules to adapt the game to that end within that supplement. It needn't affect the OTU at all though, in the same way that Babylon 5 won't.

As for Star Wars, I think you can run a pretty close facsimile to the original take on Star Wars (1977), using just the Traveller core rules themselves. Simply adapt the Psionics rules for 'The Force' (everybody rolls for Force Strength, and points can also be spent for re-rolls, rather than specific powers, if not trained), and alter the approach to space travel a bit. Heck, people used to use original Traveller to run Star Wars (surely a major inspiration to Traveller gamers at the time?) when it first came out. So why they can't do now is beyond me.

 

[TrippyHippy]

That's exactly what makes them good for making new SF backgrounds though. I can't see how anyone can seriously attempt to make their own SF background without the detailed genre discussions offered in those games, or without a variety of advice on how to build races, ships, world (and traits to build them from) - I've found all that indispensable for making my own backgrounds. I certainly don't see any reason to avoid using them with other games either.

So you need to have an 'authoritive' genre discussion before you run a sci-fi game? You can't just read a book, or watch a movie, and get inspired? Well, I guess we are coming from different angles here, on what is needed for a good generic game.

How though?

Traveller has no transhuman tech, and very limited support for cyberpunk. Traveller offers no method for consistently designing aliens either. It also offers no advice for running other styles or sub-genres.

So make some up!

The game has an open licence, for chrissake, so you could even potentially make some money from developing such ideas. You don't need to have an all encompassing core system to allow you to adapt rules to a particular need, or simply being creative in developing ideas further.

Using Traveller alone means that you have nothing to help you do the work of making an SF background. Using GURPS or HERO means you have all the help you could possibly want, and a lot of that advice is system-agnostic too.

You don't need to be spoonfed, and moreover it's prescriptive. I don't actually agree with a lot of the views about what sci-fi is or isn't that is discussed in GURPS Space. And I got a lot more ideas from reading Hawking's Brief History of Time.

I really don't think it's anything to do with "finding generic uses" for a game - I think it's more a matter of being willing to use tools that are already available elsewhere.

And if you think those tools are heavy handed, or frankly boring, as I do with GURPS and HERO, where does that leave you?

If people want to "go it alone" because whatever background they're coming up with is so amazingly original that no other books could possibly be helpful then I guess they're sorted, but the vast majority of folks aren't that imaginative and would surely find any help to be useful for their needs - so why refuse it?

The vast majority of gamers aren't that imaginative? So why do they play RPGs?

 

[rust]

The vast majority of gamers aren't that imaginative? So why do they play RPGs?

I think you are stressing this point quite a bit too far.

According to that logic, why should any imaginative person buy any
roleplaying game or supplement at all - they could just as well read
a couple of books on the subject and then make up their own game.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Well, what I am saying is that just collecting more and more authoritive essays about genre, and 'crunchy bits', isn't going to necessarily make you more creative or 'tooled up' to running sci-fi games. Moreover, the point is that there is no reason why supplements can't be created for Traveller that do indeed provide all the necessary means for running different genres as necessary. Seriously, why not have Traveller supplements for Transhuman or Cyberpunk genres?

For me, though, I'm just going to run what the hell I want with Traveller, and if other people feel the need to restrict their own games when using it, then that's up to them.

 

[rust]

Well, what I am saying is that just collecting more and more authoritive essays about genre, and 'crunchy bits', isn't going to necessarily make you more creative or 'tooled up' to running sci-fi games.

True, but I can see no problem in using those systems or rules of other
roleplaying games - for example GURPS world building - that Traveller
does not provide (yet).
It does not restrict me, it frees me of the mathematical, mechanical part
of setting creation and enables me to concentrate on the imaginative si-
de of my setting.

Moreover, the point is that there is no reason why supplements can't be created for Traveller that do indeed provide all the necessary means for running different genres as necessary. Seriously, why not have Traveller supplements for Transhuman or Cyberpunk genres?

I agree, although I am not sure whether it would work very well, at least
for me.
On the other hand, there is already excellent material for low-tech and
even fantasy Traveller, so I may well be wrong.

 

[EDG]

So you need to have an 'authoritive' genre discussion before you run a sci-fi game? You can't just read a book, or watch a movie, and get inspired? Well, I guess we are coming from different angles here, on what is needed for a good generic game.

For starters, we're not discussion what's needed to run a game either, we're discussing what's needed to create an original SF setting - those are two entirely different sets of needs.

And yes, a genre discussion helps immensely when creating a background, particularly if you only have the seed of an idea in your head that you want to expand. For example, I remember finding the discussions about interstellar government in GURPS Space to be really useful when I first saw them in 3e. They gave me several ideas too.

So make some up!

Why should I? If they're already there in another RPG book, why shouldn't I just adapt those?

You don't need to be spoonfed

Ah, that old chestnut. The implication being that anyone who finds that sort of thing useful isn't "imaginative" or "smart" or whatever (with the added implication that it's somehow better to have to make everything up from scratch like in "the good old days"). I was wondering when you were going to bring that up.

It's not about being "spoonfed", it's about being willing to use the tools that are there. If you want to ignore them then feel free, but ultimately you're missing out on a goldmine of potentially useful information.

But how anyone could claim that it's a bad thing to be offered advice and help and ready-made systems to build your own SF setting is just beyond me.

I don't actually agree with a lot of the views about what sci-fi is or isn't that is discussed in GURPS Space.

I find that rather baffling, given that the discussion in GURPS Space pretty covers a lot of SF. How is your view so different?

And if you think those tools are heavy handed, or frankly boring, as I do with GURPS and HERO, where does that leave you?

Do you honestly think that there is nothing of any use in GURPS Space or Star HERO? Have you even read them?

The vast majority of gamers aren't that imaginative? So why do they play RPGs?

Please don't misquote me. I said that very few people - even gamers - are imaginative enough to come up with a background so original that no other source of material could possibly be useful to them. Things like GURPS and HERO provide a lot of useful information to people who are at least open-minded enough to mine it from any available source. If they're not that open-minded, well, it's their loss.

 

[EDG]

Well, what I am saying is that just collecting more and more authoritive essays about genre, and 'crunchy bits', isn't going to necessarily make you more creative or 'tooled up' to running sci-fi games.

Why would you think it shouldn't though? And I'm not just talking about genre discussions, I'm also talking about all the other toolkit parts that are in things like GURPS Space, like the implication of tech on the setting, and the systems for designing ships and worlds and aliens.

Moreover, the point is that there is no reason why supplements can't be created for Traveller that do indeed provide all the necessary means for running different genres as necessary. Seriously, why not have Traveller supplements for Transhuman or Cyberpunk genres?

No reason why not, but they're arguably already there for Traveller - just take GURPS Traveller and you have all the other genre supplements you need within the GURPS system.

After all, a GM may not necessarily want to wait til someone writes their own supplements or to come up with their own rules - what if they want to play something now? There's plenty of material already available that can be adapted to Traveller without too much effort after all.

For me, though, I'm just going to run what the hell I want with Traveller, and if other people feel the need to restrict their own games when using it, then that's up to them.

Nothing's stopping you. I just think you're making more work for yourself by ignoring other material out there that can potentially help you.

 

[captainjack23]

I like GURPS for its material, and don't run it because it takes way too long to generate NPC's given my now limited hobby time. That's all. Traveller shouldn't be GURPS not because GURPS sucks, but because GURPS is GURPS, and that niche is pretty full. I think the discussion is simpler and more focused than that:I think it was about if MGT should (or will) support a general vision of traveller, or one tied closely to the OTU. From there we have "what should the relationship between traveller and the OTU be" and thence to "what is generic and is it a good idea".


As to the current tangent (not a criticism) People can and will use varying amounts of input from all sources at different times to create different universes; so what's the discussion here ?
That they should or shouldn't ? Or that traveller should provide all the components to do it all ? Or that traveller needn't bother because either the material exists elsewhere, or that they don't need any material ?

I'm not sure any of those can be answered in any kind of objective way.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I've read GURPS Space (3rd and 4th Edition), but not Star HERO (although I have read other HERO genre books, so I have a reasonable idea of what it would be like, at least).

Genre books such as these have a need to present themselves as being comprehensive and authoritive. That means they make statements in a matter-of-fact way, when actually a lot of these things can be pretty subjective. I mean, the opening line or so of the book is something like 'space travel has always been the most important trope in science fiction'.

Now that's an opinion, not a fact. I could just as easily argue that, actually, life science and 'playing God with nature' is a more important trope in science fiction, and cite things like Brave New World, Jurrassic park and Frankenstein to back that up should I want too. But the GURPS book is littered with statements such as these, including telling the reader about what technologies or alien concepts are 'reasonable' or not for a sci-fi game. To me, that's heavily proscriptive rather than inspirational. I know that some people think that GURPS' stance on the Metric system is a minor thing, but it's illustrative of a broader point: that the game system and the way you are supposed to use it is actually quite inflexible.

Personally, I'd rather read a book or watch a movie and consider it in my own way , to draw inspiration as I want. You could argue that the GURPS book has a bibliography and filmography in the back to help you do just that, but even then I find myself questioning the list. How they can include Bladerunner in a supposed list of space movies, but forget to include 2001: A Space Oddyssey is beyond me.....

 

[EDG]

Personally, I'd rather read a book or watch a movie and consider it in my own way , to draw inspiration as I want.

Fair enough... but what's stopping you from doing that with GURPS Space too? I don't really care what a book's tone is myself, as long as the information it contains is useful.

Either way, Traveller has never been a truly generic SF toolkit. Problem is, I don't think it's ever decided what it actually was - it's good for running games that are "like Traveller", but that's not really useful since nobody even agrees on what Traveller actually is, and indeed whatever definition may have existed has arguably shifted over time with each new edition.

Right now, Mongoose seem to be defining Traveller as an expandable ruleset that can be used in a variety of SF settings (of which the OTU is just one) - and while I think it'll work reasonably well for Babylon 5 with a little modification, I think they have a lot of work to make things like Judge Dredd work with it and in the process they will by have to 'genericise' the system by adding more rules to cover more genres. That's all well and good, but then we get back to the question of "do we really need another generic SF system?"

I think really the problem is that Traveller's missed the boat - there are other systems out there that have been built from the ground up to be generic SF rulesets, and that arguably do it a lot better than Traveller ever did in its 30+ year history.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Either way, Traveller has never been a truly generic SF toolkit. Problem is, I don't think it's ever decided what it actually was - it's good for running games that are "like Traveller", but that's not really useful since nobody even agrees on what Traveller actually is, and indeed whatever definition may have existed has arguably shifted over time with each new edition.

I disagree. I actually think that Traveller was a very good generic sci-fi game in 1977, when it was originally released. Unfortunately, both sci-fi and rpgs moved on from 1977. What I think the 2008 game should aspire to do, is to try to make Traveller relevent again to all sci-fi genres, or at least as many as would fit into it as possible, noting the new sci-fi developments of the last 30 years (and beyond, as time goes on).

As I said, I wouldn't try to run Paranoia with it, but cyberpunk? - yes, indeed. All you need to do is create a supplement for it, and the tropes of the cyberpunk genre become legitimised within the system, without needing to become obtrusive on the OTU or any other setting for that matter. Same thing goes with Transhumanism, mecha or whatever.

I think really the problem is that Traveller's missed the boat - there are other systems out there that have been built from the ground up to be generic SF rulesets, and that arguably do it a lot better than Traveller ever did in its 30+ year history.

Well, if we are talking about GURPS and HERO, or D20 Future too, then I think these games missed the boat actually - which is why the Traveller project and licence is still marketable today, in the approach that Mongoose appear to be taking. Heck, it was only a couple of years ago that I was being lectured online by prominant Game Developers (TM) telling me that sci-fi rpgs don't sell. Well heck, Mongoose Traveller is selling!

 

[captainjack23]

I've read GURPS Space (3rd and 4th Edition), but not Star HERO (although I have read other HERO genre books, so I have a reasonable idea of what it would be like, at least).

Genre books such as these have a need to present themselves as being comprehensive and authoritive. That means they make statements in a matter-of-fact way, when actually a lot of these things can be pretty subjective. I mean, the opening line or so of the book is something like 'space travel has always been the most important trope in science fiction'.

Now that's an opinion, not a fact. I could just as easily argue that, actually, life science and 'playing God with nature' is a more important trope in science fiction, and cite things like Brave New World, Jurrassic park and Frankenstein to back that up should I want too. But the GURPS book is littered with statements such as these, including telling the reader about what technologies or alien concepts are 'reasonable' or not for a sci-fi game. To me, that's heavily proscriptive rather than inspirational. I know that some people think that GURPS' stance on the Metric system is a minor thing, but it's illustrative of a broader point: that the game system and the way you are supposed to use it is actually quite inflexible.

Personally, I'd rather read a book or watch a movie and consider it in my own way , to draw inspiration as I want. You could argue that the GURPS book has a bibliography and filmography in the back to help you do just that, but even then I find myself questioning the list. How they can include Bladerunner in a supposed list of space movies, but forget to include 2001: A Space Oddyssey is beyond me.....

Well, yes. By its very definition, a genre book has to be restrictive. I think what you are both responding to is something like quality (does it do what it sets out to do), possibly pretentiousness (does it claim more for itself than it can deliver), and certainly personal preference.

I think the key issue for traveler is this: is it possible to have a system that supports the two opposite approaches you and the Doc espouse ? And, is it a good idea ? The old chestnut about "jack of all trades master of none" certainly may apply , but one can also argue that it effectively expands the fan (and thus customer) base. I think the problem with taking this two level approach really is in doing it consistently and obviously ; otherwise, it comes across as an inconsistent mish-mash; and not confusing complexity with detail, or simplicity with playability.

 

[EDG]

I disagree. I actually think that Traveller was a very good generic sci-fi game in 1977, when it was originally released. Unfortunately, both sci-fi and rpgs moved on from 1977.

Are you kidding? It was a terrible generic SF game when it was first released - about as bad as it's ever been in fact, given all the setting-specific things that were built into the rule system (if you look at just books 1-3, you could only use it to make settings where jump took a week and where there were no aliens, where tech followed a specific progression, and where pretty much everyone was retired ex-military).

Later editions tried to make it more generic, peaking with TNE's FF&S and World Tamers Handbooks. GURPS Traveller of course was as generic as you could get, given that you could just drop in any rules from any other GURPS book. But at the start, hell no, Traveller was really NOT generic at all (I guess you'd probably argue that it was, since you could just make up stuff that wasn't in the book, but I think that's being disingenuous - you may as well argue that every game is generic if people can just make up their own rules).

What I think the 2008 game should aspire to do, is to try make Traveller relevent again to all sci-fi genres again, or at least as many as would fit into it as possible, noting the new sci-fi developments of the last 30 years (and beyond, as times goes on).

Which is great, but plenty of Traveller fans also seem to want it to ignore all those developments and stay as it was. That said, I think those people are gradually becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the Traveller community (thankfully).

All you need to do is create a supplement for it, and the tropes of the cyberpunk genre become legitimised within the system, without needing to become obtrusive on the OTU or any other setting for that matter.

"All you need to do"? Have you ever tried writing a supplement? It's a hell of a lot of work you know!

And again, there are already other systems that have these things already written for them - it's a lot less work to use those instead.

Well, if we are talking about GURPS and HERO, or D20 Future too, then I think these games missed the boat actually - which is why the Traveller project and licence is still marketable today, in the approach that Mongoose appear to be taking.

Sorry, how did those miss the boat exactly? They are "the boat" - they're generic systems, and GURPS and HERO were built from the ground up to be. Not only can they do SF but they can also do fantasy, plus post-apocalypse, martial arts, and a wide variety of other genres.

I think the only reason Traveller has sold in the past is because the same same people have been buying it. Mongoose are (wisely) planning on expanding that base by tying new settings to the Traveller system and offering the OGL... but this is what should have been done with Traveller right from the very beginning. GURPS did it by default, and TNE tried to do it given that GDW attempted to bring all of its varied settings under one ruleset, but MGT is the first time anyone's seriously tried to separate the system from the settings.

Heck, it was only a couple of years ago that I was being lectured online by prominant Game Developers (TM) telling me that sci-fi rpgs don't sell. Well heck, Mongoose Traveller is selling!

Oh they do sell... they just don't sell anywhere near as well as fantasy or horror RPGs. I don't think MGT has really changed that.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Are you kidding? It was a terrible generic SF game when it was first released - about as bad as it's ever been in fact, given all the setting-specific things that were built into the rule system (if you look at just books 1-3, you could only use it to make settings where jump took a week and where there were no aliens, where tech followed a specific progression, and where pretty much everyone was retired ex-military).

Have you read any of the other games that were around in 1977? In the context of the time it was released, Traveller was a cutting edge design game. I know you don't have much respect for it, but this is really the focus of another debate (that we've already had). The point I was making before, was that Traveller was originally designed as a generic sci-fi game. If Mongoose Traveller aspires to emulate the intent of the original game, then it should do likewise.

Which is great, but plenty of Traveller fans also seem to want it to ignore all those developments and stay as it was. That said, I think those people are gradually becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the Traveller community (thankfully).

Sure. But I want it to emulate the generic intent of the original game, which is why I am arguing for such. The question is what do you want from it.

"All you need to do"? Have you ever tried writing a supplement? It's a hell of a lot of work you know!

Well, you'd better get going now on it then....

And again, there are already other systems that have these things already written for them - it's a lot less work to use those instead.

Not for me though. For me, Traveller is a pretty much perfect system to 'hang on' almost any type of sci-fi. That's what I intend to use it for. Quite seiously and honestly, I find it a lot more difficult to use GURPS to do the same thing.

Sorry, how did those miss the boat exactly? They are "the boat" - they're generic systems, and GURPS and HERO were built from the ground up to be. Not only can they do SF but they can also do fantasy, plus post-apocalypse, martial arts, and a wide variety of other genres.

Because the approach they take, both to game design and genre is actually a turn off to a lot of gamers. That's why there are plenty of gamers like me, prepared to buy into Traveller still - because GURPS, HERO and the rest don't deliver what we want.

Oh they do sell... they just don't sell anywhere near as well as fantasy or horror RPGs. I don't think MGT has really changed that.

Traveller is outselling RuneQuest apparently. I think it's a more useful point of comparison than the usual ones given against D&D and WoD. People conflate the marketing positions these games have with the issue of genre way too much, I feel. I think there are plenty of examples of strong selling sci-fi rpgs over the years. Traveller, obviously, but also consider Dark Heresy sold out this year too, and Serenity was a best seller a couple of years back. Babylon 5 has been going for donkey's years now too.

 

[captainjack23]

Edit: Moved down the thread....

 

[EDG]

Have you read any of the other games that were around in 1977? In the context of the time it was released, Traveller was a cutting edge design game. I know you don't have much respect for it, but this is really the focus of another debate (that we've already had).

It's really nothing to do with whether I have respect for it or not. And what does being "cutting edge" 30+ years ago have to do with anything?
Does the original CT - as it was in 1977 - allow me to create a setting with instant jump drives or communications and discuss the implications of it? Does it give me a way to create new alien races? New technologies? New careers, even? Does it give me any advice on settings that aren't space empires? Or that use different technologies? No, it doesn't - which means it most certainly isn't "generic".

The point I was making before, was that Traveller was originally designed as a generic sci-fi game. If Mongoose Traveller aspires to emulate the intent of the original game, then it should do likewise.

And the point you seem to be missing is that it failed dismally at being a generic sci-fi game for the reasons I have already stated. If MGT were to emulate the original game then it'd be stuck in one tiny sub-genre of SF and not allowing anyone to do more with it.

Sure. But I want it to emulate the generic intent of the original game, which is why I am arguing for such.

And you're probably going to get it - I just think it's crazy that it's taken over 30 years to get to this point.

My stance is that it's too late though. What does Traveler offer that other generic systems that are around today don't have?

The question is what do you want from it.

What I want from it doesn't really have much to do with this, but since you asked... I've got about all I need from Traveller. I don't think Mongoose itself can really offer me anything more, to be honest - maybe someone can write something interesting via the OGL, but I'm really not interested in yet another rehash of the OTU, and neither am I interested in more licensed settings. If someone came up with a new setting then my interest would be piqued, but I've got enough rulesets to keep me going and I don't really think MGT offers anything over what's come before to make a difference to me in that respect.

Well, you'd better get going now on it then....

Actually, I think you should - put your money where your mouth is. If you're so keen on the OGL and its potential to expand the system, then get on with writing the supplements you want to see and release them as OGL products.

Or do you just plan to be a spectator while other people write the stuff you want to use? That would be strange given that you're all for coming up with things yourself.

As for me, I've got my fingers in several pies at the moment. You'll see the results next year probably.

Because the approach they take, both to game design and genre is actually a turn off to a lot of gamers. That's why there are plenty of gamers like me, prepared to buy into Traveller still - because GURPS, HERO and the rest don't deliver what we want.

But what DO you want? You've been claiming that you want a generic system but when existing generic systems are pointed out to you, you claim that they're not what you want?

Do you just want one that isn't detailed, is that it? You complain about endless lists and tables of traits (heck, Traveller's full enough of tables as it is) but how else do you expect generic systems to work? By necessity they have to give you lots of options, otherwise they can't be generic.

I really don't get what you're looking for here.

Traveller is outselling RuneQuest apparently. I think it's a more useful point of comparison than the usual ones given against D&D and WoD. People conflate the marketing positions these games have with the issue of genre way too much, I feel.

Ah, so Traveller sells really well so long as you ignore the best-selling fantasy and horror RPGs? Curious logic you have there.

I think there are plenty of examples of strong selling sci-fi rpgs over the years. Traveller, obviously, but also consider Dark Heresy sold out this year too, and Serenity was a best seller a couple of years back. Babylon 5 has been going for donkey's years now too.

You realise that "selling out of copies" means very little, unless you know how many copies were printed. Yes, Traveller has been selling fairly well, but I don't think DH and Serenity were high sellers in absolute copies.

 

[captainjack23]

So, in all of this, now that we've gotten to arguing personal opinion as fact, and we now know (again) who hates CT, and CT gamers, and who hates GURPS and GURPS gamers, and who has fingers in what pies, and who respects what, or who is confused by who's arguments, or what sales really mean, and weather traveller is hopelessly obsolete or blindingly elegant, and who hates who, is there any hope of discussing the topic ?

Should Mongoose traveller support focus on the Imperium setting, or expand. And if so, how far ? and if not, why not ?

...Discuss amongst yourselves......