October - Ammunition Comparison & Balancing

Nerhesi

Cosmic Mongoose
Things are shaping up real well with respect to weapon balance thus far, we need one last pass to inspect ammunition however, if I may say so. Particularly:

Armour Piercing (AP) VS HEAP VS APDS

First off, APDS should be without a doubt available to rifles. A few Rifles today use APDS ammunition, and Gauss rifles make perfect sense to use that Ammo too.

Now, Value comparison:

Armour Piercing, TL6, adds 1 "level" of AP to the weapon. Level being as much AP as the dice of the gun firing.

HEAP, TL7, adds 1 die of damage AND 2 levels of AP to the weapon. 1 die of damage is functionally 3.5 AP on average. The assumption here is the AP value you get is based on dice BEFORE the +1d to damage. Otherwise, APDS is simply inferior 100% of the time.

APDS, TL7, adds 3 levels of AP to the weapon.

Example A - 2D Weapon:
3D AP4 (HEAP)
2D AP6 (APDS)

Example A - 3D Weapon:
4D AP6 (HEAP)
3D AP9 (APDS)

Example B - 4D Weapon:
5D AP8 (HEAP)
4D AP12 (APDS)

Example C - 5D Weapon:
6D AP10 (HEAP)
5D AP15 (APDS)

Example D - 10D/1DD Weapon:
2DD AP20? (HEAP)
1DD AP30 (APDS)

Example E - 20D/2DD Weapon:
3DD AP40? (HEAP)
2DD AP60 (APDS)


We have two issues to address then:

a) HEAP, is clearly the better choice in almost every circumstance. HEAP has better max damage, better average damage on small arms, and barely noticeable disadvantage on 5D weapons and above. Then you hit DD weapons and HEAP just flies away with it :)

b) +1D on DD weapons, and AP with DD weapons.
I don't mind if +1D works with DD in the same way. Logical and simple. Same with DD and AP. 1DD = 10 AP.


Proposed Solution:

i) Clarify HEAP AP bonus is based on the BASE dice, before the bonus +1D.

ii) Change HEAP to SET (not add) the AP value of the weapon equal to it's base dice.
I've been playing around with many models - I've tried using just (i), but HEAP is still king. I've tried even using (i) and saying HEAP adds just 1xAP- but with inherent AP (Gauss and so on), it's still better than APDS.

There really is no way around it, unfortunately as HEAP is now, it makes APDS obsolete.

With the (i) and (ii) in place, we have the following:

Example A - 2D Weapon:
3D AP2 (HEAP)
2D AP6 (APDS)

Example A - 3D Weapon:
4D AP3 (HEAP)
3D AP9 (APDS)

Example B - 4D Weapon:
5D AP4 (HEAP)
4D AP12 (APDS)

Example C - 5D Weapon:
6D AP5 (HEAP)
5D AP15 (APDS)

Example D - 10D/1DD Weapon:
2DD AP10? (HEAP)
1DD AP30? (APDS)

Example E - 20D/2DD Weapon:
3DD AP20? (HEAP)
2DD AP60? (APDS)


As you can see - HEAP and APDS are now both viable, and meaningful choices with strengths and weaknesses, rather than just "Pick HEAP, all day every day!"
 
I keep reading this post and trying to decide if I agree or not. I will admit, I keep going back and forth in my head on this one.

I am looking forward to reading other folk's opinions. 8)
 
-Daniel- said:
I keep reading this post and trying to decide if I agree or not. I will admit, I keep going back and forth in my head on this one.

I am looking forward to reading other folk's opinions. 8)

I'm open to other ideas - I just dont think we should have a near-useless/useless ammunition option (which is where APDS stands now unfortunately :( ).

I should point out that the above comparison was done with average damage - Maximum damage comparison is clearly in favour of HEAP as well.
 
Nerhesi said:
I just dont think we should have a near-useless/useless ammunition option (which is where APDS stands now unfortunately :( ).
I think this is why I keep going back and forth. I am unsure I would call the AP value of the APDS as useless. Just because HEAP is close, does not mean APDS is useless in my point of view. However, I do not think it is bad to attempt the change you are asking for, I am just not sure it is needed either.

So what I think I am going to do is sit back and let some others comment and see where it goes. 8)

Either way, I am glad you brought it up and that you put the effort into it that you did.
 
Hum... Maybe one needs to remember or add Explosive Reactive armor and/or Slat Armor both of which should be effective against HEAP and Plasma hits....
 
Quick response to the thread, I need to reread Nerhesi's numbers to offer an opinion on damage but to me the difference between HEAP and APDS is all about range.

APDS is normally a much higher velocity round than HEAP.

APDS relies on kinetic energy to do damage, HEAP uses shaped charge tech and explosives. A HEAP round is generally lighter than APDS, it has a larger calibre and poorer ballistics.

APDS should add a bonus to a weapons range, HEAP should subtract from a weapons range. Up close and personal HEAP will rule the roost, want to reach out and touch somebody? APDS is your choice.

Now I get that this adds another layer of complexity to the game, some may not like that but if you want to have both APDS and HEAP in a game then its what differentiates them.

If you don't want the added layer then merge the rounds and call it advanced ammo.
 
@hiro made good suggestions on the concept - having a drawback of some, currently better, ammo.

Gameplay wise those distinctions will introduce more choices, rather than them being artificially influenced by the referee (like availability of the ammo).
 
Nerhesi said:
b) +1D on DD weapons, and AP with DD weapons.
I don't mind if +1D works with DD in the same way. Logical and simple. Same with DD and AP. 1DD = 10 AP.
The rest of Nerhesi's proposal seems to be implemented, but this is still a problem.

How is the penetration and damage of a destructive weapon, e.g. Anti-Materiel Rifle, calculated? From what I can see it is 2DD, AP5 for HEAP, and 1DD, AP8 for APDS. That does not really make sense.

I would propose that 1DD is considered the same as 10D for ammo calculations.

E.g.
Medium Autocannon: Base 8D, HEAP 9D AP16, APDS 8D AP24
Heavy Autocannon: Base 1DD, HEAP 1DD+1D AP20, APDS 1DD AP30

From what I gather APDS should be superior against heavily armoured targets, so I think this would make sense.
 
I am going to put a cap on this.

Basically, if a weapon gets increased to 10D or more, it becomes 1DD and cannot be increased any further (so we don't end up with 1DD + 1D).
 
A gauss weapon wouldn't get any advantage from using APDS. While i agree it should get the same AP bonus it won't be using DS rounds to get it.
 
Ash247 said:
A gauss weapon wouldn't get any advantage from using APDS. While i agree it should get the same AP bonus it won't be using DS rounds to get it.

Yeah - this is where we would say it isn't APDS... maybe NLPD (make it up). Obviously the main reason for this, is as you point out, Gauss should be getting the bonus. A TL10 rifle with TL7 APDS ammo shouldn't be superior in every way to a Gauss Weapon (TL12)
 
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