Observations and Hopes for New Books

[Gruffty the Hiver]

...Vegans...

VEGANS? Why do we need rules on how to only eat vegetables? {{j.k}}

Hehehe yes good one PG :lol:

 

[captainjack23]

...Vegans...

VEGANS? Why do we need rules on how to only eat vegetables? {{j.k}}

....becuase a K'kree armada is in orbit ?

 

[collins355]

The ideal template, I think, already exists in the form of TNE/Fire Fusion & Steel. Whatever one thinks of the TNE setting, this book is a gold mine still. Why? Because they did not limit themselves to OTU technology and canon items but put in all sorts of plausible sci-fi technologies - but clearly labelled each chapter into OTU and 'alternate' technologies. Like the idea of cold fusion powering your vehicles - the rules are there to build them. Like the idea of a universe without 'jump' drives and with giant bussard ram scoop sublight ships - you can build them. Hate TNE's HePLaR propulsion and prefer the earlier reactionmassless drives - you can decide which to use because rules are there for either.
Or you can stick to the 'official' universe.
Using this template would keep everyone (generally :lol: ) happy.

 

[EDG]

The ideal template, I think, already exists in the form of TNE/Fire Fusion & Steel. Whatever one thinks of the TNE setting, this book is a gold mine still. Why? Because they did not limit themselves to OTU technology and canon items but put in all sorts of plausible sci-fi technologies - but clearly labelled each chapter into OTU and 'alternate' technologies.

Definitely agree there. I think FF&S is still so useful on so many levels for any SF setting because of that, and all the alternate techs really broke Traveller free from the straitjacket of tech-assumptions presented in the OTU. (in fact, the OTU stuff is arguably quite minor in FF&S, it's presented as just one of many options).

 

[aspqrz]

But, I am sure, you don't find that the least bit ... silly.

Like I said, you're obviously not the target audience. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm not trying to sell to you.

Happy?

Phil

But you're missing the point Phil.

With the greatest of respect, I am most certainly not the one "missing the point".

Lots of people could sit down and write a pdf based on their own prejudices about what TL things should appear at and what price they should be (and whether they should weigh a few grams more, or less).

And what part of the comment I made that I was largely not providing a TL listing for anything in the book I am writing and, where I am, it is only relative, not absolute, did you not either ...

a) bother to read

or

b) grasp?

Indeed, I have definite opinions of what will be available and when. And, except where blindingly obvious (except to Canonistas) that we've either

a) already got it

or

b) can reasonably expect to have it "real soon now"

I generally leave well enough alone.

Regardless, in the equipment book I am working on there are, and I repeat it with emphasis, no Tech Levels except, in some cases, relative ones.

If Canonistas want DigiMaps to be TL/21, fine. They can do that. Makes no difference to me ... except that I reserve the right to tell them that its a blindingly silly decision IMO and that no-one I know is likely to want to play in a TU where such silliness abounds. But that's as far as I'll go.

All Traveller players have their individual prejudices about this, if they thought about it for a minute, and your resulting book would be different from my book, would be different from rust's book, would be different from EDG's book, etc.

Well, possibly. You would, based on your statements, try to enforce the 1950's mindset of Traveller a la 1978 LBB in whatever you presented.

I, on the other hand, am merely offering a selection of technologies that GMs can place at whatever TL they d*** well please. And if they want heavier and more expensive versions to appear at earlier TLs, hey, there's nothing in the book to tell them they can't have just that!

So, in effect, I am not telling people what to do, which is what the canonistas, by and large, attempt to do, I am offering people options.

I then pointed out (with examples) that the two items you've detailed to date did not strike me as particularly inventive or different from existing canon items (except for the prices, weights, TLs that you prefer).

So, the fact that you, personally, can't see that we have those technologies (of the less effective "Canon" items) right now, or close enough thereto, and that we are likely to have the items I described, which are much closer to what we're likely to develop in a reasonable time frame, is something I should worry about.

I knew when I started this that Canonistas and those of a similar bent would not be interested in the slightest ... we've already seen the negative impact they had on Spinward Marches ... but, as I noted, if you fall into either category (Canonista or fellow traveller, for want of a better word, with the greatest of respect ), then you, personally are not the target market.

How many potential customers will I lose? Dunno. On the evidence so far, I never had you as one, and Rust *is* one.

Anyway, Space Opera (while in no way perfect, nor am I claiming it was perfect), with the sense of wonder that Traveller never quite had for me (Yes. That is a personal assessment) and many others (Whom I have corresponded with over the years and said this in various forms), sold reasonably well ... so, I guess, I'll go with that.

So, let's recap.

There are NO TLs in the product in question, except relative ones for some items.

The GMs will be able to place the items at whatever TL *THEY* deem reasonable. They are NOT being TOLD that they MUST have it at a specific TL.

People who think that the 1978 channelling of 1950's tech is wonderful and should never, ever, be changed ... aren't the target market.

I had hoped to be in the target market of a book with some new and original ideas for hard sci-fi items of equipment to spice up the Traveller universe. In fact I still do.

If you can see beyond your complaints, none of which are justified, then you might be. If not ... sad ... :?

Phil

 

[rust]

... and Rust *is* one.

Yep, indeed.

I just discussed this with one of my players, our "engineer", to hear his
opinion on it.
Until now, we did take most of the technology of our setting from GURPS,
especially GURPS Ultra-Tech, and some equipment from a number of va-
rious other RPGs, for example Chaosium's Ringworld RPG.
Since there is now a German version of MGT available, and we will use its
character generation system for our setting, I asked the player whether
we should also use more of the core rulebook's technology from now
on.
His answer, translated of course, was: "No, this feels too 'retro' for me,
we need something more 'state of the art'."

Perhaps he and I, and the other players of our group, are exceptions, a
tiny minority, but I suppose that there might be some more like us.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I'm glad your all happy with the technological aspects of the game, but I think, while we are on the issue of respect for the game, that the real crimes of 'dissing' the original were done in MegaTraveller and Traveller: The New Era.

Why?

Because it was in those games, where setting elements and metaplot actually became enforced upon the user, and where those elements themselves became decisively more important to the game design than the system used (literally in the case of T:TNE).

Having just re-read a Marc Miller interview from a decade ago (where he was promoting T4), he actually makes the point that the original game was designed for gamers to design their own universes, and he lamented how the game had been moved away from it's original, simpler design. With that goal in mind, I would say that Mongoose Traveller is much more faithful to the original vision.

 

[EDG]

Having just re-read a Marc Miller interview from a decade ago (where he was promoting T4), he actually makes the point that the original game was designed for gamers to design their own universes, and he lamented how the game had been moved away from it's original, simpler design. With that goal in mind, I would say that Mongoose Traveller is much more faithful to the original vision.

Er, Marc himself was the one that moved it away from a generic game in the first place. Right from Books 1-3, CT couldn't be used to design any SF universe - it could only be used to design universes that had human characters and where FTL was always a 1 week long jump. At the start it had no alternate tech design rules (that only came in at FF&S) and no non-human characters (that came in with the Alien Modules).

Hell, FF&S - during the TNE era - was arguably the only book ever released for the game in which Traveller's ever tried to be truly generic.

The irony is that Marc was lamenting how it's moved away from its simpler design, but from what I've seen and heard of it T5 is anything but "simple".

 

[TrippyHippy]

The original lbbs were generic to the extent that they were inspired by the sci-fi literature that the creators were into, in the same way that D&D was supposed to be a generic fantasy game. The fact that they expanded the game outwards from there, by customer demand as much as anything, does not change what his original intents were. Those were simply to create a foundational set of rules, which in 1977 were hugely groundbreaking in comparison to other rules systems of the time. Lets not forget that the original box set had no supplements or any other support for more than a year. People designed their own universes, from the systems within alone.

With regards to later editions, the information I've read suggests that he didn't have as much influence over game design as you seem to think. This is particularly true of T:TNE, which was released after he had left GDW. When GDW closed, the Traveller rights reverted back to Mark Miller. He chose to release T4 with Imperium Games, as being closer to his personal vision (note how they went back to Milieu 0, rather than extend the timeline further, and the very minimal data for setting in the corerules book), but even then that game was written by a team (Lester Smith, Ken Whitman, Timothy Brown, Greg Porter, Don Perrin, Tony Lee) that he oversaw, rather than being solely his creation. Most of the core T4 system was designed by Lester Smith and Greg Porter.

 

[EDG]

The original lbbs were generic to the extent that they were inspired by the sci-fi literature that the creators were into, in the same way that D&D was supposed to be a generic fantasy game. The fact that they expanded the game outwards from there, by customer demand as much as anything, does not change what his original intents were. Those were simply to create a foundational set of rules, which in 1977 were hugely groundbreaking in comparison to other rules systems of the time. Lets not forget that the original box set had no supplements or any other support for more than a year. People designed their own universes, from the systems within alone.

Well, when people say "generic" I tend to think they actually mean generic. Yes, Traveller's like D&D in that you can make setting that have similar assumptions, but that's not "generic" to me. "Generic" is GURPS or HERO, that just give you ALL the options, without any inbuilt assumptions, and let you figure out what you want.

With regards to later editions, the information I've read suggests that he didn't have as much influence over game design as you seem to think.

I'm not sure how I've ever give anyone the impression that I thought Marc Miller was involved or had influence in later editions, because I know he wasn't. And frankly I'm very glad for it, because there's nothing he's been involved in that I actually like (even the CT stuff that I like is all written by other people). My favourite editions of Traveller are the ones in which he's had pretty much no involvement at all.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Well, when people say "generic" I tend to think they actually mean generic. Yes, Traveller's like D&D in that you can make setting that have similar assumptions, but that's not "generic" to me. "Generic" is GURPS or HERO, that just give you ALL the options, without any inbuilt assumptions, and let you figure out what you want.

Wrong definition. 'Generic' doesn't mean 'universal'. 'Generic' means pertaining to a particular group. It derives from the word 'genus'. When somebody says 'generic fantasy' then it pertains to that fantasy genre grouping, in terms of inbuilt assumptions, rather than specifically sourced adaptations. Ditto 'generic sci-fi'. D&D is generic fantasy because it draws from multiple sources within the fantasy genre, rather than being a specific literary adaptation. Ditto Traveller, as per it's original intent.

I'm not sure how I've ever give anyone the impression that I thought Marc Miller was involved or had influence in later editions, because I know he wasn't. And frankly I'm very glad for it, because there's nothing he's been involved in that I actually like (even the CT stuff that I like is all written by other people). My favourite editions of Traveller are the ones in which he's had pretty much no involvement at all.

You are entitled to your view. Bad as it is.

 

[EDG]

Ditto Traveller, as per it's original intent.

Then it does a good job in allowing people to design settings that are based on its limited assumptions. But it's not good for letting people design any SF universe they want.

You are intitled to your view. Bad as it is.

Ah, the traveller community, so tolerant of diversity!

 

[TrippyHippy]

It would be nice to think that the Mongoose Traveller version of the game will diversify it's uses to being a modernised generic sci-fi game, that can be used to design any SF Universe that the players want.

I think they've made a reasonable start, evidently noting that some long term fans of the OTU need to be treated with some care too. However, this process may well accelerate when there are more alternative settings released.

I fully intend to use Traveller as a generic sci-fi game, that I can design my own universes with.

 

[EDG]

It would be nice to think that the Mongoose Traveller version of the game will diversify it's uses to being a modernised generic sci-fi game, that can be used to design any SF Universe that the players want.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Traveller itself will do just that, and that most of the expanded rules that will allow it to do so will come from (and go into) the OGL side of it - and that's what I'm most interested in too.

 

[collins355]

With the greatest of respect, I am most certainly not the one "missing the point".

Lots of people could sit down and write a pdf based on their own prejudices about what TL things should appear at and what price they should be (and whether they should weigh a few grams more, or less).

And what part of the comment I made that I was largely not providing a TL listing for anything in the book I am writing and, where I am, it is only relative, not absolute, did you not either ...

a) bother to read

or

b) grasp?


Phil

Ermm, I guess it was statements like this

"Based, of course, on eInk technology extrapolated. What TL will this be available at? Not too far into the future for something similar. Certainly not TL15 which is where such things tend to be placed for Traveller."

...that made me think you were including tech levels you felt appropriate (perhaps presented in different symbology but tech guidelines nonetheless).

Moreover, there is an obvious contradiction between the first part of your statement of 10 Sept above about no tech levels in the product and the second part ("where I am"). So which is it? (recalling that the point of this is that I have consistently said I was hoping for a book of new ideas, not just a collection of largely existing Traveller stuff with the weights, prices, and tech level (in whatever form it is presented A, B, C or 8, 9, 10 or whatever) tweaked to meet your personal preferences and the description given a 2008 gloss).

If it is the former then that sounds excellent, and combined with a good range of new, useful, and reasonably scientifically credible items would be a promising product.

My worry is that, instead of responding to the original questions by saying something like "Don't worry, I have tons of new ideas and this book will be full of new stuff the likes of which isn't in Traveller at present", you went off about the blunders of earlier designers, and the failings of existing designs. Now this has turned into a rant against "canonistas" and their fellow Travellers (TM). This suggests to me you are someone with an agenda, and have set out to "prove" how your ideas are better than those chumps who wrote Traveller.

And, as should be blindingly obvious, there is no doubt that my mileage does vary from canon on some equipment ratings, and I, like most other Traveller players I know, regularly house rule those aspects that disagree with my sensibilities. Which gets back to my original point, why would I buy a book of someone else's house rules..

I hope you prove me wrong and that despite your agenda you have a bunch of great new equipment waiting to spring on an unsuspecting world.

 

[aspqrz]

With the greatest of respect, I am most certainly not the one "missing the point".

Lots of people could sit down and write a pdf based on their own prejudices about what TL things should appear at and what price they should be (and whether they should weigh a few grams more, or less).

And what part of the comment I made that I was largely not providing a TL listing for anything in the book I am writing and, where I am, it is only relative, not absolute, did you not either ...

a) bother to read

or

b) grasp?

Ermm, I guess it was statements like this

"Based, of course, on eInk technology extrapolated. What TL will this be available at? Not too far into the future for something similar. Certainly not TL15 which is where such things tend to be placed for Traveller."

...that made me think you were including tech levels you felt appropriate (perhaps presented in different symbology but tech guidelines nonetheless).

As I said, what part of ...

"I have largely either not given a TL, so the GM can decide whether the item is available in their campaign or not, and at what TL, or have adopted a relative value ... A/B/C/D/E/F (which is NOT 10/11/12/13/14/15 as such) ... to allow a GM to get an idea of where I see the items falling on a developmental progression. (FWIW)."

From my second post (IIRC) on this thread, dated 7 SEP, did you ...

a) not read?

or

b) not grasp?

If it is the former then that sounds excellent, and combined with a good range of new, useful, and reasonably scientifically credible items would be a promising product.

Ah. You didn't read it.

This suggests to me you are someone with an agenda, and have set out to "prove" how your ideas are better than those chumps who wrote Traveller.

And your failure to actually read what I plainly and clearly said, right at the beginning makes me worry ... about your willingness to start arguing about something that was clearly never the case. :shock:

Just like the problem that canonistas caused with Spinward Marches.

Perhaps it would be best if you read all the posts made, carefully, before jumping to conclusions? :wink:

Which gets back to my original point, why would I buy a book of someone else's house rules.

Which gets back to my point about canonistas and their fellow travellers not being the target audience.

Phil

 

[aspqrz]

If all you need is a lot of equipment the book is already out from Avenger as "Supplement 6 - Guns, Gear and Gadgets". 60+ Pages with CT stats, weight etc. to use/abuse

Problem is, as anyone who has it can tell you, a lot of it is not really all that *advanced*. Not much of a "sense of wonder" in any of it (1)

Workmanlike, yes. But that's all.

Phil

(1) Who bought it, and so has paid for the privilege to give his entirely personal opinion. Which is, of course, worth exactly what all free advice is worth :lol:

 

[collins355]

Ignoring attempt to pretend that A/B/C/D is somehow materially different from 9/10/11 etc...

Just to be quite clear...I'm not worried a bit if the book has tech levels, guidelines or not. Either is fine. What I do want to see is new stuff, new ideas and new things to populate the gaming terrain, not 'one gamers rehash' of existing equipment. (in fact, what I'd really like, not being an engineer or physicist, is some credible but straightforward rules for designing equipment, but absent those, I'll settle for new equipment). How that makes me a canonista or Fellow Traveller (TM) is beyond me...

 

[aspqrz]

Ignoring attempt to pretend that A/B/C/D is somehow materially different from 9/10/11 etc...

Reality obviously doesn't interest you, since the statement, which I repeat in case you merely missed reading it ... again :roll: ... rather than being incapable of grasping it ...

"a relative value ... A/B/C/D/E/F (which is NOT 10/11/12/13/14/15 as such)"

Ah.

Canonista.

Confirmed.

Assessment: Not Target Audience

Logoff.

Phil

 

[rust]

Besides, exchanges of that temperature carry a certain risk that the
entire thread is deleted, as has happened several times before ...