Observations and Hopes for New Books
- Thread starter Kilgs
- Start date
I will not buy Mercenary and High Guard, as there is not much use for
them in my setting, but I am very much looking forward to Beltstrike and
Scouts, and I hope their titles will not be changed, as they are the best
fitting titles I can think of.
After the irritations and misunderstandings with 760 Patrons and Mercena-
ry people should have understood that the MGT books are different from
the CT books published more than 20 years ago by another publisher, I
think.
them in my setting, but I am very much looking forward to Beltstrike and
Scouts, and I hope their titles will not be changed, as they are the best
fitting titles I can think of.
After the irritations and misunderstandings with 760 Patrons and Mercena-
ry people should have understood that the MGT books are different from
the CT books published more than 20 years ago by another publisher, I
think.
collins355 said:
Well, according to TMB, a PRIS is TL12 and 3500 Cr, say US$7000.
Current stabilised (optical) Binoculars seem to have a median street price of around US$1000. Night vision gear seems to have a median price of $1800. That's at current tech.
Now, combining the two and adding image processing onboard, the way that computing power and prices are going, and Electronic Binoculars are quite reasonable.
I have no idea what "Tech Level" they will be available at, but they will be a lot more capable than merely "seeing a lot of the EM Spectrum" which is, the way they're described, all that PRIS do. At TL12.
As for pricing. Well.
When the first Ford Model T's rolled off the production line, they sold at the equivalent of two year's wages for an average worker. By the time the production run ceased, they cost around 6 months wages.
In modern day money, they cost c. $4000 in inflation adjusted dollars.
A Tata Nano, a much better car, will cost c. $2500.
That's in 100 years.
Now, relative wages? US average wage back then was around US$500 or so, today it's US$50000.
So that Tata Nano costs 5% of your average yearly wage.
Those $2000 Night Vision devices cost 4%.
We can assume, based on lots of historical evidence, that prices go down in both absolute and relative terms for ... oh ... lots of reasons.
Now, Traveller, in trying to have its ridiculously silly TL system ignores this, and tries to argue that a premium will be charged for high tech stuff, despite real world evidence that this is simply not the case (or, well, maybe it is, but the "premium" is on the order of less, mostly far less, than 100% of retail markup in most cases while in Traveller it is argued that it will be several hundred percent or several thousand percent, in a trade dominated 3I ... pull the other one, it plays "Jingle Bells").
If you insist on having multiple TLs (whatever a "TL" is) in the one game, then you need to have some inkling of the fact that relative prices go down.
Now, if your typical Traveller character is some dirt-grubbing subsistence farmer on some TL/0 world then, no, he's not going to have a whole lot of high tech stuff ... depending on what you call "high tech", of course. But if he's a starfaring trader or merc, well, he's living at something like the local TL, and he does. And he has the income to pay for it.
Either incomes are way too low in Traveller or prices are ridiculously high ... or, I am pretty certain, a mixture of both.
If you don't agree with that summation then, no, you're probably not the target audience ... so don't buy it when it comes out!
As for the equipment, well, its a mix of what we have now and extrapolations based on what I feel are reasonable assumptions of where we are likely to be in the far future ... it is a science fiction rpg after all.
If you liked Space Opera, then you'll probably like this ... if you didn't, well, like I said, you're not the target audience.
A simple example of one of the items ...
(All the text following is copyright 2008 by P. McGregor)
=====
NINK DIGIMAP
A foldable, fabric thin “screen” (using nInk ® technology) which displays whatever mapchip has been installed into it in full colour. Simple controls allow the user to zoom into and out of a particular location and to “scroll” between locations.
nInk ® (“nano Ink”) is an advanced development of TL/8 eInk technology, using nanoscale elements for the display. This makes it possible to incorporate a display into nanoscale eFabrics without significant loss of resolution.
The basic display and memory elements are “woven” into the fabric or polymer making the whole unit easily storable and transportable. The unit’s “controls” are simply touch sensitive graphical elements on the display screen.
A standard nInk DigiMap can hold an entire planetary surface map in Civilian format, perhaps half that in Commercial format and only 1500 km square sections in Military format.
There are two versions of the DigiMap available – the Disposable version, capable of accepting only one download and the Standard version, capable of accepting any number of downloads over its projected lifespan (regardless of type, DigiMaps can only hold one downloaded map at a time).
Cost: 25 Cr (disposable); 125 Cr (standard). Mass: 0.125 g (disposble), ¼ kg (standard). Accessories: Map Download, Civilian (Full), 10 Cr; Map Download, Civilian (Update), 5 Cr; Map Download, Commercial (Subscription), 50 Cr; Map Download, Military, 125 Cr (nominal). Power: Disposable – Integral, good for 12 + 1d months of use, not rechargeable; Standard – AAAA RTS PowerCell good for 1 month per PP.
Military downloads are normally available only to authorised military users, at no cost, but may be made available to civilian agencies (Police, Security or Intelligence and, possibly, registered Mercenary units) at the listed nominal cost per installed unit.
Outdated versions (usually days, possibly weeks or even months old), or those stripped of all sensitive military (but not necessary security) level data, may be available for those characters with the right contacts (Streetwise skill – Very Difficult task).
====
Based, of course, on eInk technology extrapolated. What TL will this be available at? Not too far into the future for something similar. Certainly not TL15 which is where such things tend to be placed for Traveller.
What effect does it have in the game?
It helps people not get lost.
Hardly earth shattering.
YMMV.
Phil
TrippyHippy
Emperor Mongoose
EDG said:
Yes, but would you base a release schedule upon the rantings of these individuals?
The only rational way of assessing the policy is to look at the sales figures. If they are selling, then that is that.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Ommadawn said:
Exactly. Some people seem to just plain enjoy being cranked off.....but it averages out - for every "this nit ruins the whole game" poster there is generally one "how dare you criticise utter perfection" poster.
Yeah. Bottom line rules. From everything I've heard from mongoose, they have a winner - something which quite a few on both grognard and antigrognard camps were predicting wouldn't be the case with such minimal graphics, presentation, and focus on original CT sensibility.
Twi'lekk_Den-keeper
Mongoose
All of the things mentioned sound great- I would definately be into a pdf of "stuff" 8)
Where would you buy it though?
Where would you buy it though?
Twi'lekk_Den-keeper said:
Ideally straight from the publisher if they have an online store - they get the most of my gaming dollar that way. However, if the company has a history of ordering problems from their online store then this is absolutely not the option that should be used because chances are that you won't get your product and won't get any reliable support from the publisher. AFAIK Mongoose is good though (though do they sell PDFs on their online store?).
The obvious alternative is to download it from Drivethrurpg (especially if the publisher has a history of ordering problems) - that way you're pretty much guaranteed to get it because they're reliable, and if you don't then you can email their support and they'll be there to help you out. That said, DTRPG will take a cut off the sale price so if you're interested in supporting the publisher the most then this isn't the ideal option. However, it's often the easiest and most convenient option, and doesn't require having to remember different usernames and passwords for every publisher's webstore.
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
YES a MUCH better suggestion. I'm getting tired of hearing all the complainers go on about how they don't like the look of the books, there's more stuff in book "X", the mechanic for handling bovines passing gas isn't scientifically accurate enough, etc.Duroon said:
Overall what MGP has been doing with Traveller is great. I will agree that with all the discussion about what is OTU and what is just Game Mechanic, each book should have a section specifically for OTU material (say at the end, the last chapter).
BenGunn said:
Hardly anything needs to be done at all really. One of my players is asking that the lockpick sets give a bonus to opening a lock. I am thinking of requiring them or having a negative DM instead. Mainly little things like that. A CT->MGT translation matrix of some sort would be great.
aspqrz said:
True, but still, if you want the publisher to get all the money then it's nice to know where it's going (buying an actual book from a publisher via an FLGS certainly won't get them the maximum amount of money from the sale, once you take into account the retailer and distributor's cuts and how much the publisher actually sold it to the distributor).
collins355
Cosmic Mongoose
aspqrz said:
As opposed to the CT Map Box from LBB4...
Map Box: Available at tech level 9 and above, the map box is a compact (250 x 250 x 10 mm, expanding to 1000 x 1000 x 10 mm when opened, weighing 1 kilogram) storage system for computer generated maps of a world. Scale may be adjusted. Most inhabited planets have insert chips available for CR 150. When not available, two orbital sweeps of the world are required to obtain the necessary photographs to construct a map chip. Blank map chips are available for CR 30. Base price of the map box is CR 2500.
Considering that was written in 1978, not bad going I think. And note, the TL is 9 not 15.
Re changing prices, maybe you missed the point on LBB4 page 43...
"In general, prices will tend to drop by 5-15% at each tech level after the level of introduction of an item, with examples of the item sold at the regular base price generally incorporating improvements or representing deluxe models. Most items of a military nature can, on worlds with a population level of 9+, be purchased in quantity at a discount."
As for your rant against TLs - not sure what you're doing looking at Traveller as an RPG. They are an integral part of it.
While it is not bad for something written in 1978, it is quite outdated incollins355 said:
2008.
For the equivalent of CR 2,500 I can buy a portable computer (which
can do a lot more than display maps on its monitor) plus a GPS recei-
ver and a navigation system today, and the price of a blank map chip
is off by a factor of at least 50.
And as for Tech Levels, you can easily play Traveller without ever men-
tioning them, especially since they do not make that much sense in ma-
ny settings anyway.
So, while I do see your point and understand it, my setting and my way
of playing Traveller would profit immensely from a choice of some more
modern equipment, and I really do not need any TLs at all.
That depends on your definition of "civilian nav-systems", as there areBenGunn said:
quite a couple of marine navigation systems that can do it, although
they would doubtless need some miniaturization to fit into a device the
size of a map box.
One example:
http://www.ixsea.com/en/products/002.001.002.002/phins.html
But give the engineers one or two more decades, and this problem will
be solved, within the framework of our current "tech level", I think.
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
Tech levels are not as monolithic as gameplay dictates (for simplicity sake). In the real world, those intervening 30 years have pushed our TL into a weird mixture that varies from TL7 to TL11 (as Traveller sees TLs).
Remember folks, Traveller is a *game*. The more like real life it gets, the less of a game it becomes.
Remember folks, Traveller is a *game*. The more like real life it gets, the less of a game it becomes.
collins355 said:
Since you cannot see the difference, you are obviously, as I intimated, not part of the target audience.
Mass: DigiMap = 125-250g. Map Box = 1000g
Cost: DigiMap = 25-125 Cr. Map Box = 2500 Cr
Map Data Cost: DigiMap, 5 Cr to 50 Cr (civilian). Map Box = 150 Cr
collins355 said:
And what was described in 1978 as TL9 is not advanced, now, either.
Like I said, people who think Traveller Tech, unchanged, is advanced aren't the target audience.
Note: According to Mercenary it now costs 3000 Cr (US$6000) and does not have the ability to resize, rescale, or rotate maps till TL 11.
As I said, if that sounds advanced to you, fine. Whatever floats your boat.
You're not the target audience.
collins355 said:
Indeed. And the book itself gives the lie to that statement. Everything costs more as you go up TLs, even if it is merely a refinement of what has been introduced many TLs before.
Like the Model T vs the Nano. No one would buy a Model T today, but they're certainly not going to buy an ATV (50000 Cr/US$100,000), they'll buy a Nano Jeep for, like, 2500 Cr (US$5000). Or, at least, people trying to make a living as Free Traders will.
collins355 said:
Something vaguely resembling reality?
Like, well, for example, what is the mechanical difference, production wise, between a bolt action rifle (TL5) an Autorifle (TL6) and an Assault Rifle (TL7). Technologically speaking, the Assault Rifle is easier and simpler to manufacture than the BA Rifle, and all can be manufactured with TL5 tech.
But, I am sure, you don't find that the least bit ... silly.
Like I said, you're obviously not the target audience. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm not trying to sell to you.
Happy?
Phil
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
Great topic, this one.
I think it may be time for a parting of the ways. The OTU is becoming a millstone round the neck of Traveller, holding it back, preventing it truly fulfilling its potential. It's time for a divorce. An amicable one, but one nonetheless.
The Third Imperium could then become it's own thing, a setting among several powered by Traveller, along with B5 and the rest. Let it develop on its own. And then Traveller itself could go about things free to do what it wanted, without everything having to be related back to the OTU.
I do not think they should stick OTU/none-OTU tags on kit and tech; that's for a 3I book to list. The main books should hardy mention the 3I except in passing. A clean break is needed.
This actually seems implicit in the Mongoose strategy already, but it's messy affair, so far. Let Traveller keep the look (after all, that's what it was wearing before it married the OTU in the first place), but they should just let it run without OTU shackles for the rest.
In fact I wouldn't mind seeing other settings take over. It is getting rather tiresome arguing over what is OTU and what is not, even if I am a sucker for it. It may be too much to expect for an OGL setting or two, given the margins, but here's hoping.
Some good tech ideas, btw. Be nice to see those tech levels filled out; there only ever seems to be a handful of bits of kit in each band even after 30 years. I think the existing MGT computer rules might be a good starting point for designing other devices. Sensors and countermeasures, decoys and ECM are all good candidates for expansion (all the extras my players added to their combat armour vastly changed it's capabilities, making it quite a different animal than just a suit of strong armour that's vac proof). Having some deeper mechanics for sensors and electronic warfare would be nice, too.
I think it may be time for a parting of the ways. The OTU is becoming a millstone round the neck of Traveller, holding it back, preventing it truly fulfilling its potential. It's time for a divorce. An amicable one, but one nonetheless.
The Third Imperium could then become it's own thing, a setting among several powered by Traveller, along with B5 and the rest. Let it develop on its own. And then Traveller itself could go about things free to do what it wanted, without everything having to be related back to the OTU.
I do not think they should stick OTU/none-OTU tags on kit and tech; that's for a 3I book to list. The main books should hardy mention the 3I except in passing. A clean break is needed.
This actually seems implicit in the Mongoose strategy already, but it's messy affair, so far. Let Traveller keep the look (after all, that's what it was wearing before it married the OTU in the first place), but they should just let it run without OTU shackles for the rest.
In fact I wouldn't mind seeing other settings take over. It is getting rather tiresome arguing over what is OTU and what is not, even if I am a sucker for it.
It may be too much to expect for an OGL setting or two, given the margins, but here's hoping.Some good tech ideas, btw. Be nice to see those tech levels filled out; there only ever seems to be a handful of bits of kit in each band even after 30 years. I think the existing MGT computer rules might be a good starting point for designing other devices. Sensors and countermeasures, decoys and ECM are all good candidates for expansion (all the extras my players added to their combat armour vastly changed it's capabilities, making it quite a different animal than just a suit of strong armour that's vac proof). Having some deeper mechanics for sensors and electronic warfare would be nice, too.
