TrippyHippy
Emperor Mongoose
It's already passed you by, I'm 'fraid. Didn't you notice?
Observations and Hopes for New Books
- Thread starter Kilgs
- Start date
I have to admit that I still fail to understand what exactly the problem
is. :?
From what I see, Mongoose will produce Third Imperium material, like
the Spinward Marches book, as well as material for other settings, for
example Babylon 5, and all those different settings will use a common
basic framework of rules, the Traveller system.
I do not see any reason to believe that these settings will in any way
be mutually exclusive, or get in each other's way.
Those players who prefer the Third Imperium can use the Third Impe-
rium material, the players who prefer other settings can use those set-
tings' material, and both groups can easily coexist and even support
each other, by buying and improving the core rules and supplements
used by both groups.
Frankly, to me this seems to be a simple and perfectly logical idea, and
also a true win-win-situation for all involved. And yet it causes such a
lot of anger, frustration and disappointment in so many places.
So, what am I missing here ?
is. :?
From what I see, Mongoose will produce Third Imperium material, like
the Spinward Marches book, as well as material for other settings, for
example Babylon 5, and all those different settings will use a common
basic framework of rules, the Traveller system.
I do not see any reason to believe that these settings will in any way
be mutually exclusive, or get in each other's way.
Those players who prefer the Third Imperium can use the Third Impe-
rium material, the players who prefer other settings can use those set-
tings' material, and both groups can easily coexist and even support
each other, by buying and improving the core rules and supplements
used by both groups.
Frankly, to me this seems to be a simple and perfectly logical idea, and
also a true win-win-situation for all involved. And yet it causes such a
lot of anger, frustration and disappointment in so many places.
So, what am I missing here ?
rust said:I have to admit that I still fail to understand what exactly the problem is. :?
<snippage>
So, what am I missing here ?
Hmm. Think of it as like, well, the "friendly competition" between supporters of Linux, Windoze, and MacOS ... :lol:
It's basically a Holy War :shock:
And, of course, that means that all heretics need to be ... burnt at the stake :twisted:
Phil
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
aspqrz said:rust said:I have to admit that I still fail to understand what exactly the problem is. :?
<snippage>
So, what am I missing here ?
Hmm. Think of it as like, well, the "friendly competition" between supporters of Linux, Windoze, and MacOS ... :lol:
It's basically a Holy War :shock:
And, of course, that means that all heretics need to be ... burnt at the stake :twisted:
Phil
Another approach to understanding it is to conceptualize the very act of being such a fanatic as being a hobby in and of iteself - and, as with all roleplaying, with no real world consequences....such as the stake, the rack, the noose, etc.
The above isn't as sarcastic as it may seem - just puzzling.
BenGunn said:
The non-separation issue is a problem, I agree. It'd make things so much clearer if they were separated out.
But do you have the original CT Mercenary book? If you do, then you can just figure out what is or isn't OTU from that, right? But if people don't have the original CT book, then they're surely not going to care (or even know) that the new one isn't similar to it are they? So their TUs are still going to be internally consistent at least, they just might have a few odd weapons compared to the OTU. I don't think this is a really big deal, given that they're probably changing a lot of other things relative to the OTU in their games too.
I see.BenGunn said:
While this is something that could be dealt with by the fan community, for
example by putting a list of the non-OTU weapons and equipment on the
relevant forums and websites, Mongoose should perhaps add that kind of
list to the back of the book's next edition, and offer it for free download.
But this seems to be only a minor technical problem, not a fundamental
one - just an errata thing, like all versions of Traveller had them ?
Vile
Banded Mongoose
I don't see any problem with separating OTU and ATU. In fact, I see not need for it at all.
If I like something in the rules, I'll use it. If I don't, I won't. Whether someone At Mongoose lablels the item "OTU" or "ATU" is not going to affect my decision. I don't like Aslan or Vargr and they don't make it into my Spinward Marches games. No canon police has yet broken down my door, pinned me to the floor and yelled, "You will use the whole of the OTU, as written, or you will be sorry!" :?:
If I like something in the rules, I'll use it. If I don't, I won't. Whether someone At Mongoose lablels the item "OTU" or "ATU" is not going to affect my decision. I don't like Aslan or Vargr and they don't make it into my Spinward Marches games. No canon police has yet broken down my door, pinned me to the floor and yelled, "You will use the whole of the OTU, as written, or you will be sorry!" :?:
While I wholeheartedly agree with you, it obviously is a problem for others,Vile said:
and one that could easily be solved.
I would hardly ever take a look at any OTU / non-OTU list, as I use for
my setting whatever I like, no matter the source, but the existence of
such a list would not irritate me in any way - if people consider it neces-
sary, they should have it, I think.
No big deal, really.
TrippyHippy said:BenGunn said:I'm afraid you are going to have to reassess your assumptions now, because Traveller is now going to support multiple settings. Stick with the OTU as you like though, as it's likely to get a lot of support in the next few years (if Glorantha is anything to go by). But there are too many other people willing to buy into other settings to stop Mongoose from spreading the Traveller love
Ah, Glorantha. I love Glorantha. But I haven't bought a single new sourcebook because I love 3rd Age, and the whole idea of going *back* made me shudder.
Yeah, the LBBs (except Spinward Marches) were pretty setting-agnostic. Yes, MGT is going to be the core rule system for all sorts of settings. Fortunately the glaring howlers are easy to ignore; it's not often you're actually rolling for single rounds out of artillery pieces, after all.
I'd like to echo a call for an 1105 period interactive map of SM. You could demand a lookup from the book as a login...
collins355
Cosmic Mongoose
aspqrz said:
But you're missing the point Phil. Lots of people could sit down and write a pdf based on their own prejudices about what TL things should appear at and what price they should be (and whether they should weigh a few grams more, or less). All Traveller players have their individual prejudices about this, if they thought about it for a minute, and your resulting book would be different from my book, would be different from rust's book, would be different from EDG's book, etc. I don't doubt that we could each come up with plausible sounding justifications for our decisions. What would all these books add, though, beyond illustrating our individual prejudices (and illustrating why there is canon - otherwise there is chaos)?
That is why I originally asked what new or original items you might put in your book. That is your value-added, not telling me you think GDW got it wrong by a few grams or credits on this or that item.
I then pointed out (with examples) that the two items you've detailed to date did not strike me as particularly inventive or different from existing canon items (except for the prices, weights, TLs that you prefer).
Now it may be that your 'target market' are people who are disgruntled with the prices, weights, TLs given items by canon and who share your prejudices - in which case you're quite right in saying I'm not in that market. But its not especially helpful to imply that I am some sort of moron because my prejudices differ from your ones (as my prejudices in places do indeed also differ from GDW/DGP/Imperium Games/Mongoose's)
I had hoped to be in the target market of a book with some new and original ideas for hard sci-fi items of equipment to spice up the Traveller universe. In fact I still do.
TrippyHippy
Emperor Mongoose
This thing is, from where I am standing, Mongoose Traveller has delivered a bloody good character generation system, and pretty much the same technology/background system of previous editions and IS compatable with the OTU. I certainly haven't felt the need to house-rule the system much either, in the many games our group played this year (we used a single d6 for initiative, rather than 2d6, and that's about it).
What is the problem?
What is the problem?
Gruffty the Hiver
Banded Mongoose
...Hivers...
...Vegans...
...vehicle construction rules...
...Expanded star system generation rules...
...Scouts...
...Vegans...
...vehicle construction rules...
...Expanded star system generation rules...
...Scouts...
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
I think the last thing Mongoose should do is to pay lip service to a minority of OTU die-hards with a pointless and irrelevant column marking out OTU/NTU. It's clutter, and mystifying to the newbs, who seem to make up a majority of the buyers. There is a level of arrogance from the most extreme of the 'old skoolers' that is, frankly, embarrassing. Like a spoilt kid demanding attention (and as a teacher, I can tell you "he who shouts loudest" gets ignored, and then expelled, usually )
If people are so sure what is and is not "OTU" then they're quite capable of working it out for themselves. (In fact I'm sure there must be someone out there who insists velcro isn't canon because there is no specific mention of velcro in the OTU - or knives and forks, for that matter). There are as many versions of what is truly OTU as there are players, so there's no common setting anyway; every one a solipsism.
Anyway, what some folk seem to mistake as Traveller's core values (as if the OTU is actually hard science, and as if Traveller actually stuck to its values consistently) is not just shiny bits of tech we already have, it's well conceived and well thought out bits of kit, put into a proper context, no matter what it's scientific pedigree. Granted, some bits of the new MGT stuff have fallen way short of that, but that's more to do with proofreading than anything else
)If people are so sure what is and is not "OTU" then they're quite capable of working it out for themselves. (In fact I'm sure there must be someone out there who insists velcro isn't canon because there is no specific mention of velcro in the OTU - or knives and forks, for that matter). There are as many versions of what is truly OTU as there are players, so there's no common setting anyway; every one a solipsism.
Anyway, what some folk seem to mistake as Traveller's core values (as if the OTU is actually hard science, and as if Traveller actually stuck to its values consistently) is not just shiny bits of tech we already have, it's well conceived and well thought out bits of kit, put into a proper context, no matter what it's scientific pedigree. Granted, some bits of the new MGT stuff have fallen way short of that, but that's more to do with proofreading than anything else
IMHO, as a relative new-comer to Traveller, the idea it should slavshly stick with the OTU is just silly, and irrelevant if it does not. This is like saying the only acceptable way of playing D&D is in the World of Greyhawk, since that setting is heavily implied in the rules (moreso in 1e, but still there even in the lamentable 4e). Thus every time TSR/WotC publishes a product that is NOT Greyhawk specific, somehow this adulterates the rules. Silly.
I have the Spinward Marches book. I like the setting so far. But with all the terminology being banded around (like MTU, or YTU, etc), it shouldn't matter one solitary bit what Mongoose releases for the game, since either it will conform to your version of the TU or it will not; you will buy the product or you will not. I would most definitely be opposed to incorporating (somehow) the B5 universe into the OTU, but I doubt Mongoose would ever do that. Instead, people will play that setting (or not), and maybe even port over some of the useful bits from it to define their TU. It is theirs.
I think the idea of not vetting a book, as a GM, for material suitable for YTU, is a bit OTT. That's like taking every supplement for D&D, good or bad, and complaining about it because you can't be bothered to determine what is suitable for your campaign or not. Who's in charge? The publishers or the GM?
Damon.
I have the Spinward Marches book. I like the setting so far. But with all the terminology being banded around (like MTU, or YTU, etc), it shouldn't matter one solitary bit what Mongoose releases for the game, since either it will conform to your version of the TU or it will not; you will buy the product or you will not. I would most definitely be opposed to incorporating (somehow) the B5 universe into the OTU, but I doubt Mongoose would ever do that. Instead, people will play that setting (or not), and maybe even port over some of the useful bits from it to define their TU. It is theirs.
I think the idea of not vetting a book, as a GM, for material suitable for YTU, is a bit OTT. That's like taking every supplement for D&D, good or bad, and complaining about it because you can't be bothered to determine what is suitable for your campaign or not. Who's in charge? The publishers or the GM?
Damon.
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
I agree completely, and why I have a vested interest in the "what is canon/OTU" discussion. For my 4th ed D&D campaign I've told the players "if it's legit in Living Forgotten Realms, it's legit here." It saves me the time of creating the world, and I can press on with my adventures, setting them within the framework. It also helps my players with figuring out what their character's place in the universe is, because they don't have to worry about what I've come up with that they don't know.BenGunn said:
AMEN Brother!
