Observations and Hopes for New Books

[aspqrz]

Great topic, this one.

I think it may be time for a parting of the ways. The OTU is becoming a millstone round the neck of Traveller, holding it back, preventing it truly fulfilling its potential. It's time for a divorce. An amicable one, but one nonetheless.

The Third Imperium could then become it's own thing, a setting among several powered by Traveller, along with B5 and the rest. Let it develop on its own. And then Traveller itself could go about things free to do what it wanted, without everything having to be related back to the OTU.

I do not think they should stick OTU/none-OTU tags on kit and tech; that's for a 3I book to list. The main books should hardy mention the 3I except in passing. A clean break is needed.

This actually seems implicit in the Mongoose strategy already, but it's messy affair, so far. Let Traveller keep the look (after all, that's what it was wearing before it married the OTU in the first place), but they should just let it run without OTU shackles for the rest.

In fact I wouldn't mind seeing other settings take over. It is getting rather tiresome arguing over what is OTU and what is not, even if I am a sucker for it. It may be too much to expect for an OGL setting or two, given the margins, but here's hoping.

Some good tech ideas, btw. Be nice to see those tech levels filled out; there only ever seems to be a handful of bits of kit in each band even after 30 years. I think the existing MGT computer rules might be a good starting point for designing other devices. Sensors and countermeasures, decoys and ECM are all good candidates for expansion (all the extras my players added to their combat armour vastly changed it's capabilities, making it quite a different animal than just a suit of strong armour that's vac proof). Having some deeper mechanics for sensors and electronic warfare would be nice, too.

Some excellent points. I am sure there are people working on just such things ... I know its on my "to do" list, and I seriously doubt I am alone in wanting to "do something" in those areas

Phil

 

[rust]

This could well be Mongoose's biggest problem with the fans and poten-
tial customers: While some of us are interested in the Third Imperium
only, others are interested in more generic material only, and do not
care for the OTU at all - and most of us probably are somewhere in be-
tween.

However, I am quite confident that the publications by Mongoose, by the
other commercial publishers and by the fans will cover all fields, and that
there will be something interesting and useful for each of us, no matter
what kind of setting we prefer.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I disagree. Traveller has never been a rules-system and always been a setting. So let's find a new name for the Rules but keep Traveller as the setting name. Traveller B5 simply sounds wrong.

As for the rest: The OTU is for me the ONLY reason to even LOOK at the MGT rules set. I don't care to play in TV universes (B5, StarTrek, StarWars...) and won't consider anything NOT linked to the OTU worth buying

In terms of the 1977 release, Traveller was a rules-system with an implied setting. The Imperium was only catalogued in later releases, although it had been used as a setting in other (board) games previously, I think. Personally, the setting itself is of secondary consideration for me, mainly because the whole 'what is cannon' arguments are so stultifying. What I'm interested in is good, ground breaking, thought provoking sci-fi of the future - not slavish adherence to settings that signify nostalgia for the past.

 

[EDG]

I disagree. Traveller has never been a rules-system and always been a setting.

Nope. As trippyhippy said, it was initially a ruleset with an implied setting (week-long jump, random term-based characters, strong military bent).

 

[EDG]

Sorry but for at least the last 20 years TRAVELLER has always meant the 3I setting and timeline. Enter the term in Google and that's what you get, that's what every person who's new to it will get.

Yes, for the last 20 years that's true. But Traveller wasn't like that at the beginning, and since Mongoose have gone back to that then that's what they've made here - a generic ruleset for any SF background. Maybe people need to accept that rather than continue to expect them to produce something that isn't what they're after.

Their problem is that they haven't clearly marked the assumptions that are OTU from the ones that aren't so people know what's Third Imperium and what isn't.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I'm relatively new to the Traveller game - insofar that I only became interested in it about 10 years ago!

I've never been attracted to the setting particularly - but the concept of an elegant sci-fi toolbox, which you can develop your own universes from. Kindlike a sci-fi alternative to D&D - but better.

I disagree that the setting is synonymous with the 'toolbox' notion of the rules. Moreover, it weakens the overall concept to me, if there is only one cannon setting associated with it.

 

[rust]

This is what Wikipedia has about this:

"Originally Traveller was intended to be a system for playing generic
space opera themed science fiction adventures, in the same sense that
Dungeons & Dragons is a system for generic fantasy adventures.
However, a suggested setting called the Third Imperium was detailed with
the publication of following supplements and since then this setting has
become strongly identified with the game, such that to fans the name
Traveller and the Third Imperium are synonymous.
...
While any version of the game system could be used in many science
fiction settings, most published supplements have dealt in some way with
the Third Imperium, also sometimes referred to as the Official Traveller
Universe, or "OTU"."

I think it is not far off the mark.

As for me, my Traveller experience started before the Third Imperium
was defined, and I never used the canonical OTU as a setting.
Moreover, I know of a lot of long-time Traveller fans who also never
used the OTU.

So, while a majority (?) of Traveller fans may consider Traveller and
Third Imperium to be identical, they should accept that there are many
other Traveller fans for whom this connection never existed.

 

[ninthcouncil]

Using the term to deliver something else is like painting Skoda on a Volkswagen and claiming to deliver a useabel product.

You do know that Skoda are now owned by Volkswagen? So arguably this is actually happening in the real world. :lol:

 

[EDG]

If I want a "Toolbox" I can use Gurps Space, Fusion, Hero... and a dozend other generics. If something is labeles Traveller, it MUST have the OTU. If Mongoose decides to go another route with the brand, that is their decision to make. But as I said at earlier, MGT is currently at a crossroad for me and if MGT takes the brand down that route, I won't follow.

If you're that attached to the OTU then why don't you just stick with an older version of the game that gives you what you want? If MGT is going in a direction you don't like then don't use it - seems simple enough to me, and it'll keep your blood pressure down.

 

[rust]

But you are aware of the fact that the only person who really has some
right to decide what Traveller "really" is or is not is Marc W. Miller, and
that he has cleared all the Mongoose Traveller material ?

No matter what you and I (and Mongoose) think that Traveller was, is or
should be, the "official" definition is the one made by MWM, and right now
he obviously backs the Mongoose publishing policy.

So, independent of what Traveller may be for you or me, Mongoose Tra-
veller now is Traveller, like it or not.

 

[TrippyHippy]

If I want a "Toolbox" I can use Gurps Space, Fusion, Hero... and a dozend other generics. If something is labeles Traveller, it MUST have the OTU. If Mongoose decides to go another route with the brand, that is their decision to make. But as I said at earlier, MGT is currently at a crossroad for me and if MGT takes the brand down that route, I won't follow.

I don't want to use those other systems - I want to use the Traveller system, with all the things that, for me, make it unique (particularly lifepath generation). As as been pointed out, the original Traveller didn't have the OTU explicitely, just an implied setting from the rules-set. Heck, we've seen all sorts of sci-fi referenced in the original game itself, including Star Wars, no less.

If you choose to leave, that is up to you, but for every one person who might be turned off by an alternative Traveller setting, you have to ask how many others will buy into it in return? Titles like 2000AD, Babylon 5 and Starship Troopers have big fanbases of their own. If just a fraction of these fans take the bait of trying out the Traveller game, then all I can see is a positive growth for the game. In my opinion, this is true to the original intents of the game - much more so than developing a strict 'cannon' setting that is increasingly dated.

 

[rust]

@rust: WikiFakia is not the best source IMHO. That think is morphing faster than the Linux kernel.

This is why I then mentioned Marc W. Miller, too.

Frankly, he obviously has made his decision, and just remember that he
already has demolished the OTU twice in earlier versions (with the Rebel-
lion and then with Virus). He is not exactly a devoted keeper of his OTU,
I think.

So, if you do not like the changes, blame him, not Mongoose.

 

[rje]

WELL.

I am interested in seeing other settings grafted onto the Traveller core. I liked watching those fast-and-deadly space battles on Babylon 5; I'd like to use Traveller to re-enact them.

While I'm not so sure I liked Starship Troopers, I did like Aliens, and both now look emulatable using the Traveller core. Seems good to me.

 

[EDG]

Oh, my blood-pressure IS down. But I am a customer and I get to voice my opinion. It's called "telling the producer what you want". Some companies consider that useful.

(Odd, I'm sure I posted a reply to this earlier).

There's a difference between "telling the producer what you want" and demanding what they should do. If they want Traveller to be a generic SF system then that's what it's going to be, and if you have a difference of opinion about that then you'd be better off saying "can you reconsider this?" instead of saying "no, you should do it this way".

 

[Klaus Kipling]

What is the OTU anyway? There's very little of it, at least in prose, not endless number strings. It's just a sketch, and a basic one at that. It only becomes rich when a ref puts the detail into it, at which point it no longer is the 'OTU'. The painfully narrow definitions it has to suffer too: OTU, MTU, YTU, ATU... In the end is just pointless hot air. It's the narcissism of small differences, making Traveller fandom reminiscent of Marxist, Maoist, Stalinist, and Trotskyist groups of the 70's. Lots of bile and fury that, in the end, achieves bugger all.

I do not understand why the, I'll use the word OTUistas, want to restrict other peoples fun. The 3I is still there, it can still be played in, and Mongoose are still supporting it. Why should they get to veto other folk using the Traveller rules to play in whatever millieu they want? The first thing I thought when I first looked at CT was: "This would make a great Star Trek game". It would be good for B5, too, and things like Mass Effect, Dredd, etc, or anything else that can be imagined. It's a good concept; restricting it just to OTU stuff is a criminal waste.

Sure, I can see the OTU's merits. It would even be fun to play in if folk would just allow the developers to develop it. But no, it must be kept fossilised and imprisoned in outdated concepts, saddled with ossified values and inflexible and, ultimately, brittle.

All the pointless arguments I've had recently, mostly on another board I might add (and of course, my own fault for getting engaged), have sucked all the joy out of the the OTU for me. I love Traveller, but if the OTU cannot be allowed to develop, then meh. There's lots of cries: " But it's NOT Traveller", but no one, and I do mean no one, is able to actually tell me what is Traveller. Mostly, they don't even bother trying.

Sorry to come across as exceedingly grumpy. I have just finished 2 days of 11 hour shifts and am not in the best of moods. And I'm not aiming any barbs at any folk here - there's honest debate going on. Elsewhere, it's been childish, deceitful tosh, and I've had my limit.

Apologies again. Think I've vented now.

Resume.....

 

[hdan]

I'm an "LBB" Trav player who hadn't touched the game in decades until MGT came out, so though I have a lot of nostalgia for my old favorite RPG, I haven't really "carried the flame" all these years, if you know what I mean.

I kinda started off in the "Don't call it Traveller if it's not OTU Traveller" camp, but then I got thinking about it. I know that I certainly rolled up my own subsectors, invented new technologies and FTL methods and cherry-picked the OTU for my own games back in the day for "MTU", so where do you draw the line?

To me, Traveller is a way of playing more than a setting. No "leveling up", characters who start off knowing what they're doing (and can easily fit on 3x5 notecards!), patron encounters, rumor tables, "tickets", etc. The Trav gaming philosophy is very different from the D20 philosophy (part of the reason I couldn't get into T20) about what it means to role play.

I can't see any reason at all that this philosophy shouldn't be applied to other similar settings.

 

[aspqrz]

This is what Wikipedia has about this:

While any version of the game system could be used in many science
fiction settings, most published supplements have dealt in some way with
the Third Imperium, also sometimes referred to as the Official Traveller
Universe, or "OTU"."

I think it is not far off the mark.

As for me, my Traveller experience started before the Third Imperium
was defined, and I never used the canonical OTU as a setting.
Moreover, I know of a lot of long-time Traveller fans who also never
used the OTU.

So, while a majority (?) of Traveller fans may consider Traveller and
Third Imperium to be identical, they should accept that there are many
other Traveller fans for whom this connection never existed.

Indeed. Exactly. When I purchased the very first edition of the 3LBB way back there was, really, no setting ... sure, there was a vague mention of something called "the Imperium", but no details worth spit.

The first campaign I ran ignored it entirely, because it was so minimalist. :shock:

The additional material over the years that has layered on with a trowel all sorts of stuff, some sensible, some beggaring belief, has never had the cachet to me that the "true believers" in the "one true way" of the mythical Third Imperium seem to accept it as having. :wink:

While I'm happy to argue "canon", I don't see the need to accept, for whatever reason, that there can be no change as some seem to do ...

YMMV

Phil

 

[captainjack23]

Well, my main hope is that the line continues to be successful and profitable for mongoose. I can live with canon bending, genericization and etc, as the core ruleset really has reached back to the original rules that the OTU/3I was built on...so as far as I want to be a canonista in my campaign, it's quite backward compatable.

That said, it can't hurt the hobby or the game to spread out a bit...I'm suspecting that the sales have significantly execceded the population of current Traveller Grognards* - roughly estimated at 10x(the unique members of COTI,Here, Avenger, SFROG, TML,TML-NE and RPGnet.traveller )* so it seems that is exactly what is happening.

And thus, it won't be still born like d20 and t4 or dead of corporate ennui like CT/MT/TNE in the near future. If the price is a few wanky magrail guns, fine by me. I've always been willing to draw a line thru broken rules in my gaming materials, and traveller is no exception.

And, given that it has been such a success when there was lots of argument that Mongoose was doing it all wrong (and I mean here, not just other websites) my other hope is that mongoose keeps listening to itself when it comes to merchandising issues....



*of whatever edition - 'cause unless you started with MGT, or just bought it de novo on ebay, even the d20 gamers are old guard now -which is all grognard means in this case.


**if there are even a thousand such members, I'll be amazed

 

[TrippyHippy]

Actually my experience is different. The meek may inherit the earth but only the rude are heard. Your millage may vary

Reminds me of a Frank Zappa song:

Some take the Bible for what it's worth
When it says that the Meek shall inherit the Earth.
But I heard that some Sheikh
Bought New Jersey last week,
And you suckers ain't getting nothin'!

The problem for me is in the name. Call it "Generic Universal SciFi System" and print "Babylon 5 powered by GUSS" on the cover. But Traveller means (at least for me) a very well defined set of background and assumptions about technologies and what goes/what not. And that surely has no Hyperdrives or moon-sized orbital battelstations. It has a certain set of Aliens (and those include neither Minbari nor Kzinthi), governments etc.

I'm afraid you are going to have to reassess your assumptions now, because Traveller is now going to support multiple settings. Stick with the OTU as you like though, as it's likely to get a lot of support in the next few years (if Glorantha is anything to go by). But there are too many other people willing to buy into other settings to stop Mongoose from spreading the Traveller love shock into different directions.

 

[rust]

...my other hope is that mongoose keeps listening to itself when it comes to merchandising issues...

I really hope so too, because they must obviously be doing something
right.

While I have no numbers for the German edition of MGT, and only know
my "home forum" good enough to see what is going on there, the suc-
cess of MGT at least on this one forum is most surprising.

People who never did show much interest in science fiction RPGs have
begun to buy and play Traveller, and even to write and offer for free
download the first introductory adventures, and also to present them
on cons.
And some of you may have seen the thread on this forum here, where
an invitation for a German Traveller PBP was posted. This is a kind of
activity I have not seen for quite a while.

So, from my personal experience, I can only hope that Mongoose con-
tinues what looks more and more like a true success story.