Obscurment and cover

[Elvis in Combat]

I did. But that still eliminates critical terrain. A solid stone statue or boulder that that is too steep to climb and too thick to drive though suddenly becomes invalid for cover. Reasonably there should be no argument if a unit is hiding beyond the edge of said cover, but sadly many gamers embrace technicalities over reason.

Heh, well that's why there won't be "impassable" terrain on my boards. :lol:

Unless we're playing Scenario 2 from "The Zapasnovan War". Then there is one big long impassable ravine down the table. If I'm playing the EFTF anyway! :wink:

 

[Major Chaos]

Finally! I think this explains why in the battle reports I have read they talk about squads on rooftops. Move at half rate and you are on the "roof" or "second floor" or whatever you want to call it. Getting cover or obscured LOS. Though I don't know why you would claim obscurement...

 

[Paladin]

I did. But that still eliminates critical terrain. A solid stone statue or boulder that that is too steep to climb and too thick to drive though suddenly becomes invalid for cover. Reasonably there should be no argument if a unit is hiding beyond the edge of said cover, but sadly many gamers embrace technicalities over reason.

Heh, well that's why there won't be "impassable" terrain on my boards. :lol:

Unless we're playing Scenario 2 from "The Zapasnovan War". Then there is one big long impassable ravine down the table. If I'm playing the EFTF anyway! :wink:

:lol:

 

[Paladin]

OK, that's not a great solution, for a square base it's OK, noone will move across that at half speed when it's easier to move round it at full speed. but it's a decent ruling to make.

I can see myself jokingly parking my tank a top the head of some nameless dictator's statue and spinning to lob fire from above, just for spite. :lol:

 

[BuShips]

I did. But that still eliminates critical terrain. A solid stone statue or boulder that that is too steep to climb and too thick to drive though suddenly becomes invalid for cover. Reasonably there should be no argument if a unit is hiding beyond the edge of said cover, but sadly many gamers embrace technicalities over reason.

Heh, well that's why there won't be "impassable" terrain on my boards. :lol:

Unless we're playing Scenario 2 from "The Zapasnovan War". Then there is one big long impassable ravine down the table. If I'm playing the EFTF anyway! :wink:

:lol:

I'll up your bid, and claim the entire table is impassible terrain, lol :lol:.

 

[lastbesthope]

The thing is there are 2 kinds of cover, cover from being behind something, and cover from being within something. Unfortunately the rules about what terrain can constitute cover do not seem to differentiate between the two in a sufficient manner to cover all cases.

LBH

Is that a pun, LBH? :wink:

Not an intentional one

LBH

 

[BuShips]

The thing is there are 2 kinds of cover, cover from being behind something, and cover from being within something. Unfortunately the rules about what terrain can constitute cover do not seem to differentiate between the two in a sufficient manner to cover all cases.

LBH

Is that a pun, LBH? :wink:

Not an intentional one

LBH

I figured as much, but you can still take full credit, lol!

 

[Mr Evil]

so it looks like this tank is in full 100% cover at +2 target and +2 kill

still say frigin stupid personaly

 

[Hiromoon]

Yeah...honestly....

 

[lastbesthope]

Yes it is Evil, and I can see why you don't like it that way, but at least the rules are clear, and so there is no confusion in your dislike :lol:

LBH

 

[BuShips]

One easy fix would have been to tie in the LOS line so that you would have to trace a line from vehicle center to vehicle center AND have it intersect the wall, debris or other terrain in order to claim cover. I suppose that it couldn't be done due to the option that was desired in the game to target an alternate location near the target model. I might even guess (without trying this yet) that you could still make the straight line to a targeted open area fall under the same qualification, and give a blank area of the table either obscurement or cover :roll:. While seeming on the surface to be "silly", it might be a way around the issue at hand. In other words, whatever is targeted whether it be a model or a piece of open ground has to trace an unbroken LOS to be considered as a "clear shot". If the line to the target area in not clear, it at least gets obscurement. In the case of Mr Evil's last photo, the target tank has to be behind the terrain enough in order to break the line between the centers of the two models in order to qualify for Cover. I also remember Matt's comment that MGP would have had to paint dots on the models, but since there are already pre-game agreements as to what will constitute impassible versus passible terrain why couldn't there be an agreement on where the "dots" are to be? Heck, there are various ways to do this, from painting them to tacking removable "stickum" paper dots on the vehicle centers. At least the line-of-sight rule works to separate conditions of Cover/no Cover. The infantry are absurdly easy, as it's the center of the top of their heads that becomes the "dots" (hey, it's where the snipers aim, isn't it? LOL). Using a straight-edge ruler and measuring the diagonal crossing point of a tank would work well as a center of the model and the same for most other vehicles, right? I'm just thinking (typing) out loud here... :wink:

 

[seanwalsh]

... [Picture removed] ...
so it looks like this tank is in full 100% cover at +2 target and +2 kill

still say frigin stupid personaly

The Tank only has cover if the terrain it is touching is "passable", right?
"passable" terrain is terrain you can move through. If you can move through the terrain, you can stop inside the terrain, and conversely, if you cannot stop inside the terrain, you cannot move through the terrain.
Since you cannot stop inside that dragon, it cannot be "passable", therefore, the tank is not in cover.

I think the rule makes sense. To get cover, you have to be able to get inside the terrain.
The way i read it, large rocks, hills, statues can obscure or block LOS, but since they are not "passable" they cannot provide cover.
Bushes, forest, hedges, low walls can obscure or block LOS, and since they are "passable" they can provide cover.
Buildings are special. I would rule that if there are windows or doors, they are passable for infantry and could be cover. As for tanks, if the tank moves through the wall, there is not much of a wall left afterwards, but i guess that might provide cover.

 

[Rabidchild]

The point here is that there's a level of abstraction involved. It's not perfect, but it's perfectly clear. All you have to do is decide what is impassible, everything else is half movement and can provide cover per the terrain and cover sections.

I'd like to see impassable terrain provide cover personally, but I like how clear the rules are.

 

[Paladin]

One easy fix would have been to tie in the LOS line so that you would have to trace a line from vehicle center to vehicle center AND have it intersect the wall, debris or other terrain in order to claim cover.

thats my recommendation too.

 

[Major Chaos]

All terrain is passable unless you declare it impassable at the start of the game. So yes, that means Paladin may park his tank on top of the statue as he jokingly suggested. Think of it as knocking the statue over if you need to but it is passable terrain.

Now the question is, if terrain is impassable does it only ever provide concealment? Never cover. By the letter of the rules this seems the case. If it is, then in Evil's example the tank could only get +1 if they had declared the statue impassable before the game (next time!)

 

[BuShips]

... [Picture removed] ...
so it looks like this tank is in full 100% cover at +2 target and +2 kill

still say frigin stupid personaly

The Tank only has cover if the terrain it is touching is "passable", right?
"passable" terrain is terrain you can move through. If you can move through the terrain, you can stop inside the terrain, and conversely, if you cannot stop inside the terrain, you cannot move through the terrain.
Since you cannot stop inside that dragon, it cannot be "passable", therefore, the tank is not in cover.

I think the rule makes sense. To get cover, you have to be able to get inside the terrain.
The way i read it, large rocks, hills, statues can obscure or block LOS, but since they are not "passable" they cannot provide cover.
Bushes, forest, hedges, low walls can obscure or block LOS, and since they are "passable" they can provide cover.
Buildings are special. I would rule that if there are windows or doors, they are passable for infantry and could be cover. As for tanks, if the tank moves through the wall, there is not much of a wall left afterwards, but i guess that might provide cover.

If you read the entire thread out (because as most of these discussions are a running discussion of previous considerations of the stated topic), that dragon would have had to have been declared pre-game as an impassible terrain piece in order to not be used as cover. I'm having to admit that I'm going through fits of first understanding and then getting myself confused, as I now see that my above attempt at clarity needs to be suddenly amended! Maybe I need to re-read the thread from the top, lol. My "solution" is just the same that was offered by Galactic Fatt Patt earlier (I see that now). According to the official interpretation my LOS intersecting that dragon piece would become no fire at all (if it had blocked the "line" of the LOS, and thus fire. Because the dragon had not been declared as impassible by the players, it can be crossed and thus can provide cover. Because of Mr Evil's photo example, because LOS can be drawn to the tank, the tank can be shot at. OK, I get it. Good example, Mr Evil . Because it's behind and touching it, the tank can claim the dragon as Obscured LOS (or "OLOS"?). Alright, so now I'm a little foggy (but only a little) by the question asked earlier in the thread:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25532&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=barrel

about the tank barrel or any antenna (I was going to add them to my models, but now... :twisted. If the LOS to the model's center is blocked, then even if the antenna is showing it can still be attacked (although it is in OLOS status)? Matt told lastbesthope that it was. So I'd guess that this is due to the feature of the firing rule that says that you can target any fire zone, and not just the center of a model. So if any part of the model is visible, then the firing player can figure out from what he observes of what is visible just about where the target model's location is I suppose. So a model would have to be completely blocked from view to be clear of the threat from attack, right?

 

[Major Chaos]

So a model would have to be completely blocked from view to be clear of the threat from attack, right?

Correct. It is the same in Warmachine and Hordes with larger models. It is also considered unfriendly gaming in those games to leave parts off your model that make it more visible. The thing to remember is this is an abstraction. Everything cant be perfect.

 

[BuShips]

So a model would have to be completely blocked from view to be clear of the threat from attack, right?

Correct. It is the same in Warmachine and Hordes with larger models. It is also considered unfriendly gaming in those games to leave parts off your model that make it more visible. The thing to remember is this is an abstraction. Everything cant be perfect.

Don't you mean "less visible"? :lol: In my case, I was going to add whip antennas to my tankies, but now... :roll:. Geeze, I suppose I could "discuss pre-game" that any model additions are to be considered "invisible" as far as game mechanics and to just use the "official" pre-modded model design... :wink:


Oh, something just occurred to my evil and twisted mind- What if I did that and also hoisted a little pennant at the top with a graphic of a single-digit salute imprinted on it. MUAhahaha!! :lol: :twisted:

 

[Hiromoon]

It's like Space Marine Sgts. with those Banner poles....I actually stopped putting those on after a few shots of 'hey, i can see you' when I was behind a hill.

 

[Greg Smith]

There was a similar discussion to this on the Confrontation forums - someone suggested modelling their figures down holes with just heads sticking up. :roll: