Obscurment and cover
- Thread starter Mr Evil
- Start date
lastbesthope
Mongoose
The technicality being the rules, yes.
Don't get me wrong, I'd houserule if it were agreed on beforehand, but it never has been wehn I've played.
If Mongoose change the rules, I'll change with them as will we all I'm sure.
As I said, it's a lot easier to see if any of the model is obscured than it is to judge 50% obscurement. Evil's 2" suggestion could get tricky depending on the size and shape of future models.
Remember, a lot of the game is abstracted for simplicity.
Especially terrain and cover.
"Whaddya mean I can only move half speed through that abandoned aircraft hangar, there's nothing in it but a smooth concrete floor!"
Having 'digital' defined states keeps it simple.
LBH
Don't get me wrong, I'd houserule if it were agreed on beforehand, but it never has been wehn I've played.
If Mongoose change the rules, I'll change with them as will we all I'm sure.
As I said, it's a lot easier to see if any of the model is obscured than it is to judge 50% obscurement. Evil's 2" suggestion could get tricky depending on the size and shape of future models.
Remember, a lot of the game is abstracted for simplicity.
Especially terrain and cover.
"Whaddya mean I can only move half speed through that abandoned aircraft hangar, there's nothing in it but a smooth concrete floor!"
Having 'digital' defined states keeps it simple.
LBH
Elvis in Combat
Mongoose
Better define what is and is not "cover" with your opponent before a game.* Mr. Evil's example doesn't qualify as "cover" defined in the quick start rules anyway. Yet a park bench does.
Oh, good times. :lol:
I'm OK with the abstract as long as everyone understands it.
*Good idea to do for any game anywhere, IME.
Oh, good times. :lol:
I'm OK with the abstract as long as everyone understands it.
*Good idea to do for any game anywhere, IME.
docrailgun
Mongoose
While I can agree that the BFE rules sometimes give "interesting" results at times, every game will have players who reparse rules to give themselves an advantage. There's no getting around that.
There simply is no way to make a perfect set of rules. There has to be a balance between simplicity and a simulation of reality. Sure, we could use the "Advanced Squad Leader" rules, but then a game would last forever. These basic rules are simple enough for younger children to use, but complex enough for we grognards to use (but still complain about). As Matt has suggested, it looks to me that these rules were intended to stop the constant rules-bickering I see at Warhammer tournaments. These rules will make BFE tournaments capable of being run in a few hours simply because there won't be fifteen minutes of arguing, judging, and multiple book-searching between turns.
Of course there's always the possibility of house ruling things at friendly games or tournaments, but the rules as they stand now give a good base to work from.
There simply is no way to make a perfect set of rules. There has to be a balance between simplicity and a simulation of reality. Sure, we could use the "Advanced Squad Leader" rules, but then a game would last forever. These basic rules are simple enough for younger children to use, but complex enough for we grognards to use (but still complain about). As Matt has suggested, it looks to me that these rules were intended to stop the constant rules-bickering I see at Warhammer tournaments. These rules will make BFE tournaments capable of being run in a few hours simply because there won't be fifteen minutes of arguing, judging, and multiple book-searching between turns.
Of course there's always the possibility of house ruling things at friendly games or tournaments, but the rules as they stand now give a good base to work from.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
@ Elvis and Hiromoon.
The mudflap is part of the model, it is clocked from LOS by terrain that the model is touching, ergo by the rules it is in Cover. I mean if Matt has ruled (and he has) that you can shoot at a Warrior if all you can see is the aerial. Part of the model is part of the model.
Not saying the rules shouldn't be changed. but it swings both ways, everyone on the table gets the same benefits of cover from only part of the model being obscured. It's not like it's unfair.
LBH
The mudflap is part of the model, it is clocked from LOS by terrain that the model is touching, ergo by the rules it is in Cover. I mean if Matt has ruled (and he has) that you can shoot at a Warrior if all you can see is the aerial. Part of the model is part of the model.
Not saying the rules shouldn't be changed. but it swings both ways, everyone on the table gets the same benefits of cover from only part of the model being obscured. It's not like it's unfair.
LBH
Elvis in Combat
Mongoose
LBH, please read the rule I've quoted. I've done so three times.
lastbesthope said:
Dunno...Challenger benefits more from cover than say abrams. Immunity to insta kill is HUGE bonus and that's what makes challenger II easily best tank in the game. Immunity to insta kill second you reach cover and you can take on platoon or two of Type-99's(platoon of Abrams) and have more than reasonable chance of survival.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
@ Elvis I have, and I'm yet to form a clear train of thought about the disparity it might represent. Other than referring to previous rulings by Matt as I have.
Tneva, yes the Chally gets an advantage from cover that no other tank has, but it is the most expencive tank in the game, and has less weapons and speed than the USMC Abrams to compensate.
At the Open Day Matt said the kill score bonus was why the Challenger cost more.
LBH
Tneva, yes the Chally gets an advantage from cover that no other tank has, but it is the most expencive tank in the game, and has less weapons and speed than the USMC Abrams to compensate.
At the Open Day Matt said the kill score bonus was why the Challenger cost more.
LBH
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Alright, I've taken a moment to gather my thoughts so let's see what I can come up with:
Going by the rules:
Piecing all that together, anything that has not been declared impassable before the game starts is eligible for Cover. So in answer to your question Hiro, unless the terrain has been declared impassable, yes, but at half speed.
I'm not saying that this is the correct answer, I'm not saying it's my final answer, all I'm saying is that this is my reading of it at this point in time.
LBH
(Suitable disclaimered I think)
Hiromoon said:
Going by the rules:
Piecing all that together, anything that has not been declared impassable before the game starts is eligible for Cover. So in answer to your question Hiro, unless the terrain has been declared impassable, yes, but at half speed.
I'm not saying that this is the correct answer, I'm not saying it's my final answer, all I'm saying is that this is my reading of it at this point in time.
LBH
(Suitable disclaimered I think)
Elvis in Combat
Mongoose
OK, I'm seeing it now.
1. Work out "impassible" terrain
2. All other terrain is "passable" at half speed.
3. Any model touching "terrain" or "within it" is in cover
That's great as one "desert" game we claimed the hills provided cover if the model was touching it or "within it". It looked odd to have someone on top of a hill being hard to hit but in reality they'd be prone on the crest if shooting so they would be hard to hit. The next game we did away with it and that sucked big time for my PLA. My first instinct was right.
I'm assuming this; that the table cover used in a game is not "terrain" yet it's clearly not a model.
1. Work out "impassible" terrain
2. All other terrain is "passable" at half speed.
3. Any model touching "terrain" or "within it" is in cover
That's great as one "desert" game we claimed the hills provided cover if the model was touching it or "within it". It looked odd to have someone on top of a hill being hard to hit but in reality they'd be prone on the crest if shooting so they would be hard to hit. The next game we did away with it and that sucked big time for my PLA. My first instinct was right.
I'm assuming this; that the table cover used in a game is not "terrain" yet it's clearly not a model.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
@ Elvis
Sounds like a good 3 steps to start a game and avoid misunderstandings. If you want to use hills in such a way, more power to you. My group uses them as concealment since they don't impose movement penalties. Maybe I'm doing that wrong by the letter of the law?
@ Mr Evil
I agree that the setup you've showed us feels wrong but instead of moving 15" laterally why not move 7" forward and to the left? Put the barrel of your 120mm on his hull and say "Dodge this."
I've found that playing a game of 1 vs 1 with tanks goes a long way in teaching tank vs tank tactics:
Tanks will always fire from cover.
Tanks will always move as one of their actions, either to a firing position or to avoid return fire.
Tanks will always forget they can drive through buildings.
@ LBH
I agree with all points. It's simple, everyone plays by the same rules. It encourages maneuver and gives the defender the advantage.
That being said, my group of gamers also plays with the agreement not to sweat the little things and so not fire on gun barrels and radio aerials. In Evil's example there would be no cover. But I'm okay with playing Rules As Written as well, BF:Evo is just a little more abstracted than we're used to.
Sounds like a good 3 steps to start a game and avoid misunderstandings. If you want to use hills in such a way, more power to you. My group uses them as concealment since they don't impose movement penalties. Maybe I'm doing that wrong by the letter of the law?
@ Mr Evil
I agree that the setup you've showed us feels wrong but instead of moving 15" laterally why not move 7" forward and to the left? Put the barrel of your 120mm on his hull and say "Dodge this."
I've found that playing a game of 1 vs 1 with tanks goes a long way in teaching tank vs tank tactics:
Tanks will always fire from cover.
Tanks will always move as one of their actions, either to a firing position or to avoid return fire.
Tanks will always forget they can drive through buildings.
@ LBH
I agree with all points. It's simple, everyone plays by the same rules. It encourages maneuver and gives the defender the advantage.
That being said, my group of gamers also plays with the agreement not to sweat the little things and so not fire on gun barrels and radio aerials. In Evil's example there would be no cover. But I'm okay with playing Rules As Written as well, BF:Evo is just a little more abstracted than we're used to.
Elvis in Combat
Mongoose
Based on LBHs quotes, yes it seems not counting hills (terrain that is placed) as cover is incorrect. It also reduces movement by half, which actually makes sense.Rabidchild said:
Directed in general; to reiterate; as far as I'm concerned; so long as everyone agrees beforehand I'm OK with the rules being abstract. Just don't spring them on me.
That eliminates a lot of terrain as usable for cover such as tall rocks, trees, etc. Because you have to move around and not through them you can't hide behind them... Obviously that doesn't make sense.The Rules said:
It needs to include something for impassible/fixed terrain.
Elvis in Combat
Mongoose
Paladin,
Read LBH's quotes above in order. Anything not declared "impassible" is by definition "passable" at half speed. <Sits back and breaks out the popcorn>. :lol:
Unless you have another rule or rules that contradict or show otherwise? <I'm not being snarky, I am genuienly interested.
Read LBH's quotes above in order. Anything not declared "impassible" is by definition "passable" at half speed. <Sits back and breaks out the popcorn>. :lol:
Unless you have another rule or rules that contradict or show otherwise? <I'm not being snarky, I am genuienly interested.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Well one game I played with my Ziterdes hills, we ruled that the hills were shallow enough to be climbable at normal speed, blocked LOS if they blocked LOS on the table (if you take my meaning) but the 'cliff edge' was impassable in either direction. All clearly stated before the game began. All agreed, all good.
@Elvis, the table cover is either part of the table, or special terrain passable at full speed. Of course, some scenarios could take place in rough terrain and thus all movement is at half speed, e.g. swamps.
but yes terrain does need to be clarified at the start of a game.
@Rabid & Elvis, yes by the letter all terrain should be half speed or impassable, but since all terrain is used at the discretion of the players, all terrain effects are too, so long as discussed and agreed before the dice roll. Not strictly by the letter of the rules, but if you want me to turn into some weird hybrid of Saavik and Dredd, please tell me now. :lol:
I must admit this thread is a much calmer place than I expected it to be when I noticed the reply notification. That's as much a comment on my rules lawyer like tendencies causing trouble as anything else mind, no offense meant to anyone.
LBH
@Elvis, the table cover is either part of the table, or special terrain passable at full speed. Of course, some scenarios could take place in rough terrain and thus all movement is at half speed, e.g. swamps.
but yes terrain does need to be clarified at the start of a game.
@Rabid & Elvis, yes by the letter all terrain should be half speed or impassable, but since all terrain is used at the discretion of the players, all terrain effects are too, so long as discussed and agreed before the dice roll. Not strictly by the letter of the rules, but if you want me to turn into some weird hybrid of Saavik and Dredd, please tell me now. :lol:
I must admit this thread is a much calmer place than I expected it to be when I noticed the reply notification. That's as much a comment on my rules lawyer like tendencies causing trouble as anything else mind, no offense meant to anyone.
LBH
I did. But that still eliminates critical terrain. A solid stone statue or boulder that that is too steep to climb and too thick to drive though suddenly becomes invalid for cover. Reasonably there should be no argument if a unit is hiding beyond the edge of said cover, but sadly many gamers embrace technicalities over reason.Elvis in Combat said:
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Only if you declare said statue impassable Paladin. If you don't then it can be used for cover.
OK, that's not a great solution, for a square base it's OK, noone will move across that at half speed when it's easier to move round it at full speed. but it's a decent ruling to make.
Maybe there should be another category for terrain, impassable but provides cover when behind it.
The thing is there are 2 kinds of cover, cover from being behind something, and cover from being within something. Unfortunately the rules about what terrain can constitute cover do not seem to differentiate between the two in a sufficient manner to cover all cases.
LBH
OK, that's not a great solution, for a square base it's OK, noone will move across that at half speed when it's easier to move round it at full speed. but it's a decent ruling to make.
Maybe there should be another category for terrain, impassable but provides cover when behind it.
The thing is there are 2 kinds of cover, cover from being behind something, and cover from being within something. Unfortunately the rules about what terrain can constitute cover do not seem to differentiate between the two in a sufficient manner to cover all cases.
LBH
