Obscurment and cover

[tneva82]

*looks a little confused*

It looks like the green tank can get a clean shot on the front arch of the Type 99 quiet easilly.... What am I missing here?

According to the rules he gets cover...

Silly rule. Definetly worst rule so far in the BF:Evo.

 

[tneva82]

So you are basicly trying to say that in the above example you have no chance of hitting the statue with the shot from the green tank? I think this illustrates Matt's point perfectly. Quite a bit of the target tank is actually hidden.

Very, VERY small piece of tank is in cover...In reality that little corner of tracks covered wouldn't offer any cover to the type-99 unless the challenger would be LOT more to right(but then again more of type-99 would be covered from that particular angle...).

Silly rule.

 

[Hiromoon]

Yeah! What the duce?

 

[Mr Evil]

and thats the point of this thread, wargamers would naturaly ty hid 50% or as much of the tank as they can a rules lawer would hide 1 mm of tank to get the same cover and gain a larger fire arc.

wich is dumb. def the worst bit of the rules so far and i didnt encounter it till i played rules lawer LBH, as everbody else tried to hide a significant part of their tank in cover prevously, it wasnt an issue. and probbaly not somthing some one took complete advantage of durring play testing so it never came up as an issue.

 

[tneva82]

and thats the point of this thread, wargamers would naturaly ty hid 50% or as much of the tank as they can a rules lawer would hide 1 mm of tank to get the same cover and gain a larger fire arc.

Yeah. My rule of thumb with wargame rules: The more you think like soldier/military commander would(or atleast how we think they would think) the better. The more you think of invidual rules and how to take advantage of them the worse...

 

[127th Angry Angels]

It has to be done by common sense.

LOS can the main gun see the targets centre point.

If a rules lawyer makes an issue out of it (to the silly proportions illustrated) then they are making the game no fun. At that point you can take a hammer to their minis and then the aforementioned rules lawyer.

 

[Mr Evil]

i agree but mat ahs said in this situation for example the tank could claim full cover.

wich in a tourney is going to rais a few eye brows and feelings of good will.

games lawer one player nil. is this a game for rules lawers or players, thso far most of i recon would say nay its not in cover it maybe touching but it aint in cover no way, a rules lawer will insist his tank is in cover and insist on it to the letter of the rules.

reason i bring this up now is it needs to be adressed realy for players, not so much here but in the main rule book please. other wise some games could be unpleasnat affairs when a player plays lots of games and then one day in tourney comes to play a rules lawer, it would not be fun for the player, but the rules lawer will have a wonderful time. especialy if he points it out not long after in the same situation you allowed him to blow your tank up cuz you didnt feel it was adequite protection for your tank to claim cover in a good sportman ship style.

so far i think most of us would play it as zero cover, but a rules lawer would play it very different, and this needs to be adressed, i play games for fun and feel, not for exsploiting the rules, so far we have given several examples of simple 2 sentence rules modifaications that can prevent such a problem.

im also glad to see others agree with me for once lol makes a nice change

 

[Elvis in Combat]

Cover:

Cover in Battlefi eld Evolution is any piece of terrain that models may move through and still have Line of Sight drawn to them.

A model has to be touching (on the opposite side of the terrain to
the fi ring model) or within suitable terrain to take advantage of Cover. Otherwise, the terrain can only obscure or block Line of Sight (see above).

How does the Type 99 touching terrain THAT IS NOT COVER (the tank cannot move through it), qualifiy for a cover bonus?

What am I missing?

 

[Mr Evil]

Cover:

Cover in Battlefi eld Evolution is any piece of terrain that models may move through and still have Line of Sight drawn to them.

A model has to be touching (on the opposite side of the terrain to
the fi ring model) or within suitable terrain to take advantage of Cover. Otherwise, the terrain can only obscure or block Line of Sight (see above).

How does the Type 99 touching terrain THAT IS NOT COVER (the tank cannot move through it), qualifiy for a cover bonus?

What am I missing?

so are you saying now that the corner of a block of flats is not cover but a park bench is ? further we look into this the cloadier and more silly the cover rules become.

 

[Hiromoon]

Egad...even Evil's typing has a thick accent. :wink:


But yeah, what the heck? Does this mean a squad hiding in a building don't get cover if they're on the second floor?

 

[Elvis in Combat]

I need to find a Mr. Evil translator...

Anyway, if I read what Mr. Evil wrote correctly I think he meant to write:

So are you saying now that the corner of a block of flats is not cover but a park bench is ? The further we look into this the cloudier and more silly the cover rules become.

1. I'm not saying anything. This is a forum where the response is written. :lol:

2. Well, some park benches in the US are very, very securely attached to the ground and designed to withstand some serious abuse... Since terrain 1" or less is ignored

for the purposes of movement

then it seems cover saves apply. :?

3. I agree with "silly" right now but it's certainly not cloudy.

Hiromoon:
As far as I can tell, can infantry move through walls with openings? If so, they get cover. Even if they fall out and down from the second floor.

Tanks can't go barreling through walls (at least not that I can tell) so they would only get obscured or if there is not LOS it's blocking.

 

[Hiromoon]

I guess so then. I'm just worried about the whole 'falling out' part of that.

 

[Elvis in Combat]

Falling Out: Looking at the rules, I don't see any "building rules" per say anyway. One could argue that entering an intact building is not possible as it's not covered in the rules. Neither is going up (or down) a level. That's why I like the Disposable Heroes rules for buildings modified a bit for BF:Evo

"Touch a building entrance (windows and other model sized openings included) the unit is in it. 360 degree los, consider that the soliders create/use appropriate openings/holes as needed. Units that enter a building during one of their activations occupied by another unit count as charging."

Note that since the unit in the building gets cover they get a reaction.

Edit: I only went this route as I place a couple of "unruined" buildings on the game table. Ruined buildings (multi-storied not included) work fine with existing rules of course.
Keeps the game moving and makes for some interesting objectives for setting up firebases.

 

[Paladin]

This discussion came up a while back and I argued similar points.
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25020&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I think the key to the whole argument is clearly defining this rule:
"A model has to be touching (on the opposite side of the terrain to
the firing model) or within suitable terrain to take advantage of Cover."

1.What qualifies as "suitable"?
2. Does the LOS line have to pass through/over the Cover in question to qualify or does a portion of the model simply have to be in cover?

 

[Dorb]

I hope we are drinking the same thing.

How about when you move in to cover you dicuss the move and what you are trying to do with the unit and see if your opponent will agree.

 

[Elvis in Combat]

This discussion came up a while back and I argued similar points.
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25020&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I think the key to the whole argument is clearly defining this rule:
"A model has to be touching (on the opposite side of the terrain to
the firing model) or within suitable terrain to take advantage of Cover."

1.What qualifies as "suitable"?

Suitable is defined within cover:

Cover in Battlefield Evolution is any piece of terrain that models may move through and still have Line of Sight drawn to them.

The question is "What is 'within'" :lol:

Reading the rule, if the model is touching cover, it gets a cover bonus.

2. Does the LOS line have to pass through/over the Cover in question to qualify or does a portion of the model simply have to be in cover?

Help me understand this question. What does LOS have to do with "qualify"?

Cover in Battlefield Evolution is any piece of terrain that models may move through and still have Line of Sight drawn to them.

A model has to be touching (on the opposite side of the terrain to the firing model) or within suitable terrain to take advantage of Cover.

Cover grants a +2 bonus to both Target and Kill scores against shooting attacks.

 

[tneva82]

So let me see...Tank hiding behind corner of building doesn't get cover bonus then?

Heh. Even Mongoose folks seems to play that one wrong then based on battle reports :lol:

 

[Elvis in Combat]

It could be the rules are different for the Advanced Rulebook and that's what they're using.

But based on the rules as written, unless that tank can drive through the wall (and in the AR it may be able to) then no, tanks upagainst something it can't "move through" doesn't get cover bonus.

Unless there is a rule I'm missing.

 

[Mr Evil]

Egad...even Evil's typing has a thick accent. :wink:


But yeah, what the heck? Does this mean a squad hiding in a building don't get cover if they're on the second floor?

i read this and couldnt stop laughing, may appolagies.

what i was saying was realy being sarcastic at the rules and not any body hear but you guys seemd to get the jist of it.

but doese seem od that a park bench less than 1" high fromits corner bit gives full cover and a corner of a building gives concealment due to the fact it is unable to move through it ...

CRAZYYYY

hey in advance rules a unit can move up from one floor to another in one action, evan tanks !!!!! now thats barmy

 

[lastbesthope]

I'm with Matt on the any part obscured can grant cover.It's easier to judge if any part of a model is obscured than if 50% of it is.

You may not like it, but at least it's fair. Everyone gets the benefits of it.

And as Matt said on the thread Paladin links to:

Hi guys,

It is easier than that.

You get cover if you are in or touching. If you are neither, but are partly hidden, you get Obscurement.

If you're behind the obscuring terrain AND touching it, you're in Cover. If you're in the terrain, you're in cover. If you're far enough into the terrain, you have blocked LOS. (Or at least that's my reading of the rules as I currently understande them)

LBH