'New' Ship ideas

Ben2

Mongoose
Well we've hashed out issues with new ship designs for eight pages now. I don't think anyone is suggesting B5 style Apocabricks, but now we've covered the issues, now is a good time to think of some new ship ideas. I'll post an example below for people to comment on and hopefully inspire some thought.

The main issue is that any new ship needs to go in SFB first, and fit the SFB background. In the example below I'll hopefully cover all the bases.
 
Personally look forward to seeing it............ 8) (*)

Fitting the SFB background should not be too difficult, especially if you look at placing the Ships in the past or the future of the main era as others have suggested. We know from the appearance of the Texas class that there is much more freedom in these eras.

Getting approval for ships seems more difficult - thre seem to be mnay ships awaitng approval (or not) on the ADB board.

(*) although if my Klingon fleet box had actually arrived I might have done some conversions by now..... :x
 
D3A Armoured Heavy Frigate

As the new D6 heavy cruiser began to leave the slips of the Empires shipyards, the Deep Space Fleet had a look at their existing heavy cruisers, the D4 and the D3, and what could be done to upgrade them as the E4 and D6 entered service and the enemies around the Empire also launched new and more powerful ship classes.

Spies had reported that the Federation were heavily refitting their pre-warp cruisers (what would become the light cruiser in their upgraded fleet) with newer and more advanced engines and weapons. The Empire couldn't afford as extensive a refit, but a design was created that increased the armour on the D3, upgraded the disruptors and improved the shields.

The ship that resulted from this had slightly more firepower than the E4 escort and significantly more staying power, though it was painfully slow compared to the new ship classes.

It was also reclassed as a heavy frigate and often used as a penal ship, much to the chagrin of D3 captains.

In fleet actions against the Kzinti it proved to be too slow to maneuvre with the newer ships of the fleet, and the D3A was grouped into squadrons for base assault, moving to close range to lash base shields with overloaded disruptors under cover of other, more valuable, Klingon ships. While the increased armour provided some protection, the D3A losses mounted in base assaults, and the class was retired from frontline service in the Y140s, with some being mothballed and others moved to ISF or colony defence postings.

The ship proved adequate in ISF service, acting in concert with the far quicker G2 gunboats against raiders, with the D3A acting as the net that G2s would drive raiders towards.

The Four powers war saw the Deep Space Fleet burn through the last of their D3As as convoy escorts, encountering raiding Kzinti fighters and finding their lack of refits in the last 40 years meant they were easy prey for cutting edge technology. A few saw combat in the General War, often in desperate defences against Federation breakthroughs or on plodding patrols in backwater areas when they ran into an unexpected pirate. By that point even the ISF regarded the ship as obsolete.

The last D3A in service was destroyed in Y179 by an Andromedan raider. It was listed as missing, presumed lost with all hands.

In SFB

Take the current D3 and update it for the middle years era, adding 4 additional armour boxes, improving the shields slightly and possibly adding 4 additional warp boxes. I leave the details to SFB grognards. It might also make a good commando ship or light scout before being replaced by the far superior F5S and D6S. Replacing the waist phasers with drones might make a decent drone combatant as well.

In ACTA

This is an interesting little ship. It is both Slow and Agile, and is Armoured with a hull of 16 using the current conversion system. With no refits it lacks an ADD and has lower range disruptors. It is a short ranged destroyer that is good for mobbing static targets.

The miniature

The D3 predates the D6 by decades, so it is a great opportunity to create Ye Olde Klingon cruiser (keep boom, but far small gull wings). The additional armour allows for an armoured rather than spindly boom, with Federation style detail between the plates giving it more of a unique look, and this armour plating can be carried onto the main hull.

It would be larger than an F5 but smaller than a D5.

Hows that for a suggestion style

Fluff + explanation for why it fits in and why it doesn't affect F&E
Notes for SFB SSD
Notes for ACTA conversion
Notes for why the mini would be interesting.
 
One area in which there is currently a howling void for ship designs is the Early Years of the Federation, when each member planet still flew their own national designs.

There *was* a deal in place between ADB and Iron Crown Enterprises that specified certain of ICE's miniatures to represent the various Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite et.c ships.

However, ICE are no longer operating.

The ships themselves - in the form of their 'in game' SFB stats - still exist and are valid, but there are currently no miniatures for them, and, AFAIK, little or no 'in game' art specifying their appearance.

Might be an area to explore.
 
Another batch of ships for consideration:

The F&E scenario "The Eagle Spreads it's Wings" in Captain's Log 36 is a scenario wherein the Romulans attack the Tholians to get fleet practice with it's new generation of ships, being as they had only had the sublight pre-tactical warp ships previously.

It's set from Fall Y159 to Spring Y165, and in the early phases of the scenario, old Klingon D4, F4 ships are converted to Romulan technology and made available to the Roms. They don't do so well against the superior Tholian ships and are eventually nearly all destroyed (at least this is what happened when I played the scenario at Origins last year).

So there are at least F&E stats for the ships, and they exist way before the General War, so why not do up some minis/stats for them as well?
 
Gentlemen, I give you the USS Old El Paso

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I do like the primary (?) weapon systems on the saucer :) not sure about the engines - any ideas for stats / background?
 
For what little it's worth, I'd be somewhat reluctant to see too much spillover from the Early Years ships into the modern era; for one thing, I feel it cheapens the W- and Y-eras, since it implies those settings aren't worthy enough in their own right, but have to be shoe-horned into the General War in order to work.

The whole point about the Fed CL is that is was, as old armourclads went, an odd duck; no-one working on the early sublight versions had any clue that the ship would end up being so enduring, as there was no reason to expect advances in warp technology to enable it. It just happened to work out that way. (Just as it also happened that ships that were viable for their era, like the old Terran heavy cruiser and frigate, ran into technological and logistical dead ends instead.)

And the Romulan case is also an odd one, stemming from the technological handicap they were hamstrung by for such a long time. By the time of the Treaty of Smarba, they simply had no choice but to heavily invest in upgrading the Eagle-series ships in order to catch up with their rivals. (And like with the Fed OCL, the progression from Warbird to War Eagle to King Eagle was far from pre-planned in-universe.)

In the case of the Klingons, yes they were reluctant to throw away a weapon (or a starship), but the old D3s were really starting to get worn out by the time they were supplanted by D4s; and especially when those later ships were in turn relegated to the Klingon naval reserve by the onset of the modern D6. Plus, it is noted that many of the surviving D3s had been assembled on the Romulan border, and were set to be used in the planned conquest of the Romulan Star Empire (who were still stuck at sublight at the time, and were essentially defenseless against a fleet of even these warp-powered ironclads) before they were destroyed by the Tholians in the establishment of the early Holdfast.

Even if there were surviving D3s that weren't fit for mothballs (or the breakers), they were simply unable to keep pace with events; they were outmatched by Y-series ships (to include the first Orion YCRs and YLRs) and were completely outclassed by the Holdfast Tholians (whose PCs were, essentially, the X-ships of that early time).

In the case of armour, there are two kinds of "normal" armour seen in the SFU; lattices of energy-dampening crystals embedded in a given hull, or separate armour "belts" which can be removed or replenished more readily. However, almost all of the armour seen in the Alpha Octant is if the first kind; the lattices are literally woven into the hulls of armorclad ships as they are being built, and cannot be removed (though they can be repaired). It's simply not possible to add (or subtract) armour boxes from such ships, since it's too heavily integrated into the ship itself.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that in the Early Years (and even in the Middle Years), drones were quite slow, and nowhere near as effective as they are in the General War. The Klingons didn't have anything like the same impetus to go wild with drone variants back then; it is questionable whether enough of the old hulls were still around by the time the better drones were available to make dragging them out and using them worthwhile.


I don't work for ADB, so I won't pretend I have any sort of say in the matter (and nor would I want to claim as much); I would rather see a potential D3 miniature wait until it could actually get to operate in its natural environment; serving the Empire against its enemies of the Early Years.


(Please note that I'm not trying to be harsh with any of this; but you should note that any submissions on the ADB BBS would be subject to a vetting process, especially for Alpha Octant empires that have a lot of their available niches filled by pre-existing ships already. That's not to say that new designs can't be added - they can - but they have to work with the broader setting.)


Also, of the Fed National Guard fleets, only the Terrans saw any of its hull classes covered by the deal with Iron Crown; it was the five founding species of the Inter-Stellar Concordium (Korlivilar, Pronhoulite, Q'naabian, Rovillian and Veltressai) which had their planetary fleets exclusively based on ICE miniatures.


And the "early Smarba" Kestrel takes on the D4 and F4 were published for SFB in Module R8; but the issue there might be whether or not they would have to wait for the equivalent ships in the Federation, Klingon Empire, or elsewhere to be ported over at the same time. (But, again, I might argue that even if they were, it would do the hulls more justice for any would-be miniatures to be intended for use in the Early Years first, rather than being tacked on to the Main Era as an afterthought. That said, if we ever get an Early Years D4, there'd be no reason not to then offer stats for the LD4 or KD4 afterwards; so long as it was expanding upon its primary use as a D4, and not the other way around.)
 
This licence seems like a bum deal to me. Seems like ADB agreed to the liscence but really didn't actually want to give up any creative control at all. Unfair on Mongoose. And yes I know the reasons for this and the liscence restrictions ADB have from Paramount and their duty to the SFB history, continuity and fans. I still think its a bum deal.
 
Difficult for us to comment really as we are not aware of the contract details.

@ Nerroth - thanks again great info and sadly I already saw the brick wall of approval looming............looking at the ADb board there is already a back log of designs wanting to be approved or thrown out.

but the Texas class does IMO pave the way for any required departure from the fixed Federation hull given that it has already done just that............
 
Madstoat said:
This licence seems like a bum deal to me. Seems like ADB agreed to the liscence but really didn't actually want to give up any creative control at all. Unfair on Mongoose. And yes I know the reasons for this and the liscence restrictions ADB have from Paramount and their duty to the SFB history, continuity and fans. I still think its a bum deal.

Unless Matt releases a copy of his contract with ADB, we don't have anything to work with. He's a smart guy, and I'm sure he read his copy and understood what he was getting into.

You are right that there are times when the restrictions of ADB's license can be annoying. Better than no license at all, or even worse, a license that runs out in 5 years leaving us hanging.
 
Madstoat said:
This licence seems like a bum deal to me. Seems like ADB agreed to the liscence but really didn't actually want to give up any creative control at all. Unfair on Mongoose. And yes I know the reasons for this and the liscence restrictions ADB have from Paramount and their duty to the SFB history, continuity and fans. I still think its a bum deal.

I'm also not privy to all the contract details - however as far as the license goes, I think ADB have to have a lot of creative control - after all, if the license gets yanked, it would be ADB that pays the price for the failure. I have no connection with ADB, but even I can see they are walking along a very fine line - I believe SVC genuinely wants to upgrade the ship designs but without alienating the SFB fanbase or losing the license - not an easy path to take. Personally, I think it would be very unfair to be overly critical of the main players in this - I'm going to sit back and see how it plays out.
 
Part of this "New ships" thing is trying to add new funky designs to the verse.

So far 2500 has released a small number of the ships for five of the alpha races. We haven't seen the other main races (ISC, Lyran, Hydran, Andro), the minor races (tholian, Wyn, LDR, Orion fleet, Klingon subject races, historic races such as the carni whatjamacallem and the pravon thingamybobs). Then there are the historic fleets, the early years for all races, the simulator races.

Then we get to move out of Alpha and into the other areas with new major races, minor races etc.

2500 has already produced models for ships never seen before and in much high detail levels than ever before.

Yes people want more but lets give it a bit of time here. The early years fleets of the Federation member states are a long way down the line considering that Mongoose is still working to get the first three main races out the door.

Also any model must be financially viable no matter how cute it looks, if the market isn't seen to be there then the cost of moulds and manufacturing isn't going to be worth it.

In terms of the background and fluff.

Yep , good stuff. Keep it up.

Its not going to lead to new models unless it fits into the sellable market but I like the background work.
 
The 'new ships' idea is for in a couple of years time, when ADB/Mongoose are running out of big 3 ships to release.

The Hydrans or ISC are never going to be as popular as the show races, particularly the Big Three (Fed, Rom, Kling) so to put off the law of diminishing returns (which is what did for B5W and B5:ACTA) some new ideas are needed.

However is there any space in SFB for new ideas for the big three, or has it all been done?

I think there is space for additional middle years stuff, and extending the timeline, but ADB have avoided going past Operation Unity.
 
I wonder if, to amplify someones comments on extra components, you could do something like produce kits of different saucers, engineering sections, warp nacelles and connecting components that would allow you to assemble ships in a wide variety of configurations.

Kinda like Star Trek Online where you can mix and match components of different styles to produce your ship. Or Games Workshops multi-part plastic kits that allow you to assemble entire units of uniquely posed miniatures.
 
ErikB said:
I wonder if, to amplify someones comments on extra components, you could do something like produce kits of different saucers, engineering sections, warp nacelles and connecting components that would allow you to assemble ships in a wide variety of configurations.

Kinda like Star Trek Online where you can mix and match components of different styles to produce your ship. Or Games Workshops multi-part plastic kits that allow you to assemble entire units of uniquely posed miniatures.
I will say, if you create rules on how to customize/create your own starships, it does put the magnifying glass on in terms of game balance.

Speaking from the perspective of a very experienced BattleTech player, anyway... :wink:
 
Changing the look with a bits pack of saucers, nacelles, hulls etc is something I have no problem with.

Its easy to do background for why you have CAs in your verse that have DD saucers but DN hulls (heavy combat design with limited crew comfort, Dark Federation type). Functionally for your home games they are CAs or CSs but look unique.

In terms of build your own ships. Opening an Economy sized can of worms that is.

Its not just individual components that need to be balanced its how they all come together. Give people points costs for everything and watch the Min Maxers start to turn out Uber ships.

A photon with its overall shorter range but higher firepower compares to a Disruptor with a better range, faster rate of fire but lower damage. However put those 4 Photons inside a Klink Agile turn mode 4 cruiser with doubled shield and what happens to the balance.

Plasmas in a slow, lumbering ship with weak shields are less cost effective than those inside a fast agile ship with strong shields. In terms of balance if you get more damage on target with an Agile, Fast turn mode 4 ship that has 1 S and 2 Fs and less damage on target with a lumbering turn mode 6 ship with 2 S and 2 F torps then the extra S in fact is doing nothing. If it costs less than an S torp to make the small ship fast and Agile then min maxers will go for the cheaper (and on paper less powerful) ship.

So if over a battle you get 24 AD fired at an enemy with the fast and agile ship but only 20AD with the bigger ship should you pay less points for the bigger ships plasmas as they are doing less damage.

Balancing build your own is going to be a big wriggling pile of extra hungry worms. :wink:
 
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