new RQ Hawkmoon?

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Actually, according to the notes at the beginning of some of MM Elric books, The Broken Sword was the main inspiration for Elric.

The preface of my copy of TBS says the same too, and MM has acknowledged it in one of the Elric omnibusses (omnibi?)

 

[AKAramis]

Moorcock gives us the "Law vs Chaos" theme, in prevalent D&D, AD&D, Warhammer (FRP, WFRP2, WFB, WH40K), and even in RQ to some slight degree.

Moorcock also is the obvious source-progeniteur for the D&D and AD&D Cosmologies and Multiverse concepts, which, like Vancian Magic, radiate out to other games (including Palladium, Torg, and GURPS).

The Eternal Champion gives rise to a nifty concept with a rather poor ruleset in the amazingly ironically misnamed Amazing Engine system: That each hero is a shard of some more powerful entity; new heroes arise from the same soul on different planes.

I'd say Moorcock, Howard, Vance, and Tolkien are just about equal in their guilt for inspiring the TSR guys... at least based upon the inspirations... right beside Heavy Metal Magazine.

MM being so casual, née, careless about licensing, lead to some odd bits happening, but let's be clear: his writing has had an incredible impact upon RPG's.

 

[atgxtg]

MM being so casual, née, careless about licensing, lead to some odd bits happening, but let's be clear: his writing has had an incredible impact upon RPG's.

Probably more of a sign of the times. Basically you have a fairly successful author who have a bunch of fans asking if they can write one or more games based on his works. He probably flt flattered and said "Sure, go ahead." Jump forward and those fans are a company, and the games are an industry. I think it the the classic pull beteen being happy at having fans and wanting to please them with protecting one's intellectual property.

He writing have had an incredible impact. AN Eternal Champion RPG probably could have bexcome a great generic system RPG had it been done 20 years ago. Part of the reason for MM's dimishing impact on RPGs is perobably that he hasn't done much to add to his Mulitverse/Eternal Champion (the latter predated Joseph's Cambell's works, I believe) since the 70s. I like his EC stuff, and really like the Elric stuff, but Elric's life is so fleshed out that any more Elric writings are sort of a sideshow and anticlimatic.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

Moorcock gives us the "Law vs Chaos" theme, in prevalent D&D, AD&D, Warhammer (FRP, WFRP2, WFB, WH40K), and even in RQ to some slight degree.

Little known fact among rpgers is that Moorcock did NOT originate the Law vs. Chaos trope. It actually first appears in Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions(Which Moorcock also credits as inspiration).

 

[AKAramis]

Moorcock gives us the "Law vs Chaos" theme, in prevalent D&D, AD&D, Warhammer (FRP, WFRP2, WFB, WH40K), and even in RQ to some slight degree.

Little known fact among rpgers is that Moorcock did NOT originate the Law vs. Chaos trope. It actually first appears in Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions(Which Moorcock also credits as inspiration).

Perhaps he didn't originate it. But he is the credited source in D&D; in WFRP/WFB, it's so OBVIOUSLY Moorcockian that his take is the "point of contamination."

MM is the one who made it popular.

Of course, Anderson being someone of whom I have never heard makes, for me, D&D my first encounter with it.

As a historian, I could often care little less about the origin; my concern is the point of introduction/contammination. FrEx, Hitler's anti-semitic arguments are parallel to some 15th century spaniard whose name I forget. Said spaniard may have been read by Wagner, and Wagner had an impact upon Hitler... the spaniard is unimportant in the study of Hitler. Wagner, however is vital.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

Perhaps he didn't originate it. But he is the credited source in D&D; in WFRP/WFB, it's so OBVIOUSLY Moorcockian that his take is the "point of contamination."

Well, no it's not quite that obvious. Three Hearts and Three Lions is acknowledged as an influence on D&D in the old 1rst ed DM's guide. It's the source for paladins, the standard rpg regenerating troll and probably gnomes. Anderson's take on Law vs. Chaos is somewhat different from Moorcock's, and D&D seems sometimes to go back and forth between Anderson's and Moorcock's versions. back when there were only three different alignments, it seeemed a bit closer to Anderson's version. When the good vs. evil axis was added, it got closer to Moorcock's version.

Of course, Anderson being someone of whom I have never heard makes, for me, D&D my first encounter with it.

As a historian, I could often care little less about the origin; my concern is the point of introduction/contammination. FrEx, Hitler's anti-semitic arguments are parallel to some 15th century spaniard whose name I forget. Said spaniard may have been read by Wagner, and Wagner had an impact upon Hitler... the spaniard is unimportant in the study of Hitler. Wagner, however is vital.

As I pointed out above, Anderson is a direct influence upon rpgs, not just and indirect one.

 

[burdock]

atgsquetzalcoatl wrote

his Mulitverse/Eternal Champion (the latter predated Joseph's Cambell's works, I believe)

Nah.... " A skeleton key to Finnegans wake" came out when Moorcock was 5 years old and "The hero with a thousand faces" came out when moorcock was 10 years old.


If chaosium have the game rights to the eternal champion fair play to them. I remember versions of Stormbringer that were endorsed by MM. The company has invested a fair bit of creativity in EC gaming (some of which I deem superior to the original poorly written verbiage). I'm suspecting that a lot of people have £££ and $$$ symbols flashing in their eyes as a result of the forthcoming film, and legal advisors are telling them to keep a grip on - or nab back - every little dribble of potential cash that they can.

 

[burdock]

AKAramis wrote

the spaniard is unimportant in the study of Hitler. Wagner, however is vital.

But the spaniard is important to a study of the development of ideas that hitler was part of. Anderson may not have directly influenced Gygax but his ideas may still have been massively influential in the themes that DAD dealt with.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

Personally I'm a great fan of the French 'Hawkmoon' (having the main 16 published volumes), and was wondering if any of that superior material might be included in any potential/yet-to-be-agreed/pie-in-the-sky release of 'Hawkmoon'?

Although I can read French and have translated sections for my own use, I would dearly love to see that excellent material receive a wider audience. They are by a country mile the best reproduction of the feel of any of the MM novels into a RPG. However, I suppose that translation costs might be a limiting factor in it seeing print.

Yours

 

[zanshin]

Wow , the French have a very impressive record when it comes to Runequest/Chaosium material. I presume its BRP based? I would have thought French translation cant be too difficult to get hold of, i guess the limiting factor is the publishing cost of the material.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

Yes, it is all BRP - there are actually two French versions of 'Hawkmoon': 'Hawkmoon' and 'Hawkmoon NE' which is a revised and greatly improved version of Hawkmoon I.

The difference between the 1985 Chaosium 'Hawkmoon' and 'Hawkmoon NE' is sort of similar to that between brown book D&D and AD&D (perhaps a bad analogy there). The comparison is marked though in its content, style and polish.

All the best

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

I was thinking, there are rules for all sorts of things like Armour Piercing, flying, radiation, advanced scientific undertakings and research (unlike the Chaosium 'Hawkmoon's' simple skills, creating mutations and cyborgs as well as gun/hi-tech combat.

A lot of questions about various topics that appear on this forum might get something out of taking a look....

All the best

 

[Loz]

Dear All,

Yes, it is all BRP - there are actually two French versions of 'Hawkmoon': 'Hawkmoon' and 'Hawkmoon NE' which is a revised and greatly improved version of Hawkmoon I.

The difference between the 1985 Chaosium 'Hawkmoon' and 'Hawkmoon NE' is sort of similar to that between brown book D&D and AD&D (perhaps a bad analogy there). The comparison is marked though in its content, style and polish.

All the best

The Oriflam version of Hawkmoon is very, very nice. However, I believe it constitutes a separate licence, which means that Mongoose would need to negotiate with Oriflam directly to obtain the necessary permissions to use/translate the existing material.

The 'La France' book is absolutely terrific. A great resource.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Moorcock gives us the "Law vs Chaos" theme, in prevalent D&D, AD&D, Warhammer (FRP, WFRP2, WFB, WH40K), and even in RQ to some slight degree.

Little known fact among rpgers is that Moorcock did NOT originate the Law vs. Chaos trope. It actually first appears in Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions(Which Moorcock also credits as inspiration).

Maybe it's just me, but I always saw Moorcockian "chaos" as being more of an elemental force, a corruption of the multiverse (though from within, rather than without as in Gloranthan chaos), whereas DnD "chaos" was more of a personality thing, a pattern of behaviour. I don't know what the original DnD take was, but from my RC it's definitely a personality thing. "Gods of chaos" may have a place in the world, but chaos as a force certainly doesn't.

________________________


Edit:
There's also the Balance to consider. In Moorcock, the Balance is also an active force (which the EC is a servant of), and even makes an appearance at the end of one of the stories (can't remember which though). DnD "neutrality" - in my RC - mentions something similar in the first para, but then goes on to describe a "sitting on the fence" personality type.

So maybe Moorcockian law/chaos may have provided the idea, but the implementation sure seems different...

 

[atgxtg]

Maybe it's just me, but I always saw Moorcockian "chaos" as being more of an elemental force, a corruption of the multiverse (though from within, rather than without as in Gloranthan chaos), whereas DnD "chaos" was more of a personality thing, a pattern of behaviour. I don't know what the original DnD take was, but from my RC it's definitely a personality thing. "Gods of chaos" may have a place in the world, but chaos as a force certainly doesn't.

________________________


Edit:
There's also the Balance to consider. In Moorcock, the Balance is also an active force (which the EC is a servant of), and even makes an appearance at the end of one of the stories (can't remember which though). DnD "neutrality" - in my RC - mentions something similar in the first para, but then goes on to describe a "sitting on the fence" personality type.

So maybe Moorcockian law/chaos may have provided the idea, but the implementation sure seems different...

Chaos in Moorcocks multiverse is an elemental force, and it does belong. Basically, it is the source of all creativity and change. THis theme gets boughtup several times, where itis mentioned that a dimension without Chaos is a bad as one without Law. Eventhing becomes stagnant and unchanging. Thatis the reason why Balance is so essential and why the Eternal Champion is supposed to be an agent of the Balance.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Dear All,

The Oriflam version of Hawkmoon is very, very nice. However, I believe it constitutes a separate licence, which means that Mongoose would need to negotiate with Oriflam directly to obtain the necessary permissions to use/translate the existing material.

The 'La France' book is absolutely terrific. A great resource.

It is that! Although I think I slightly prefer 'Flesh and Metal' - not sure that there is much in it though... mind you 'Atlas Germania' is rather good too....

They are all pretty fine really.

yours

 

[Chardros The Reaper]

Any more news on this front???

I noticed on this link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/RuneQuest-Hawkmoon/dp/1905850212/sr=1-4/qid=1158657591/ref=sr_1_4/026-2890270-5467664?ie=UTF8&s=books

that there is now a description along with the entry. Interesting, isn't it? I just wondered if anyone had heard anything official about this. I sure hope that this is real! I'd love to see Hawkmoon get the RQ treatment! Then maybe Corum...then they could steal Elric from Chaosium...then Jerry Cornelius...wait, that's a bad idea, never mind that last one.

 

[Exubae]

Its a shame Chaosium fail to support their Elric/Stormbringer line, the later edition (Elric and Stormbringer5th) capture the world more in line with the books.
The only disparative side to it is the magic system took on a RQ magic feel which was never hinted at in the books.

If Mongoose are going to cover EC, I do hope they get in contact with some of the old Chaosium Writters (Richard Watts etc), as I've said the later suppliments are pretty cool and do capture the books reasonably well, considering Moorcock broad brush strokes when it comes to detail (what detail?).
There has I supppose been support of a sort, the monograph lines, the writting content of which is pretty high quality, though production quality can be low, and they're only available from Chaosiums website.

On the Hawkmoon front, as it stands the Lawrence Whitker Hawkmoon monograph could be plugged into MRQ with little if no changes.

Cheers
Paul

 

[atgxtg]

e.

On the Hawkmoon front, as it stands the Lawrence Whitker Hawkmoon monograph could be plugged into MRQ with little if no changes.

Cheers
Paul

How different is the Mongograph from the old Hawkmoon supplement for Stormbringer?

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

If Mongoose are going to cover EC, I do hope they get in contact with some of the old Chaosium Writters (Richard Watts etc)...

Possibly, but more likely the staff writers will do it.