new RQ Hawkmoon?

[burdock]

akaramis wrote

but I found the Novels to be poorly written trash wrapped around a few really cool ideas.

Too right!! I recently reread Hawkmoon and found the uninspired writing tedious. I ended up just filching through it to pick up the plot. Maybe its a drug thing? Like psy-trance music you have to be mashed to get into it. Having said that I think some of his stories (The Vanishing Tower) are brilliant.

 

[Loz]

akaramis wrote

but I found the Novels to be poorly written trash wrapped around a few really cool ideas.

Too right!! I recently reread Hawkmoon and found the uninspired writing tedious. I ended up just filching through it to pick up the plot. Maybe its a drug thing? Like psy-trance music you have to be mashed to get into it. Having said that I think some of his stories (The Vanishing Tower) are brilliant.

The novels MM produced in the 60s and 70s were products of their time, and reflect the cultural tropes (cold war, Summer of Love, hippidom, James Bond, psychedelia, etc etc), but I think Hawkmoon stands-up better than some of his other (and more recent) works. The saga was written very quickly, and as nothing more than an entertainment. It's also knowingly camp and arch, with a wicked sense of humour that's lacking in the doom-laden Elric tales. If you approach the Hawkmoon novels in that frame of mind, I find you get more out of them.

His writing style isn't to everyone's taste, and some novels/stories are better than others. But that's true of any writer. My all-time favourites are 'Gloriana' and 'Warhound & the World's Pain', but my favourite characters are Huillam D'Averc and Meliadus. Very different books and characters, with different agendas. As a saga, the first 4 Hawkmoon books really are terrific simply because they tell an extended story with fully-rounded characters - even the villains - in a coherent manner. Something lacking in the Elric tales.

 

[soltakss]

Synopsis:

• Mike Moorcock and Chaosium are working based upon a verbal agreement.
• Mike strongly regrets licensing Chaosium
• Mike claims Chaosium made up the exclusivity arangement whole cloth.
• Mike considers the gaming market not worth the effort of litigating
• Mike slanders and/or libels Chaosium repeatedly, but is unwilling to back it up with litigation to end the relationship.
• Mike claims he's not gotten royalty statements in years. (Unprovable.)
• Mike claims that D&D handled the property better.
• Mike claims he's being ripped off by Games Workshop, D&D, and Chaosium, in that they are stealing from his works.
• Mike thinks that electronic reprints of a book are separate from the underlying book, and the DTRPG versions are illicit. (Not yet tested in court.)
• Mike implies that Mongoose are crooks, too, by association with Chaosium.

Some of these points sound as though they some from the Jerry Cornelius books - rampant paranoia seems to have set in!

To be honest: I loved the Stormbringer game the few times I played it... I loved the Elrik Boardgame... but I found the Novels to be poorly written trash wrapped around a few really cool ideas.

The Stormbringer and Hawkmoon games were very good, but most of that was atmosphere and background. The rules themselves were OK, but nothing particularly special. I've never played the Elric roleplaying game or seen the boardgames, unfortunately.

However, the novels themselves were very good. I sometimes read them again and find his earlier works (Elric, Jerry Cornelius, Corum, Hawkmoon, End of Time) to be a lot more readable than the later ones (Colonel Pyatt, more recent Elric/Jerry Cornelius) where he seems to have become more pompous, as we all do as we get older.

The early books had an energy that I have rarely seen in other SciFi/Fantasy books.

I for one would love to see a good implementation of the Jerry Cornelius and Corum stories. The World Settings are imaginative and consistent, even when they are deliberately inconsistent (Jerry Cornelius in particular).

 

[soltakss]

Part of the problem is that the EC line is a niche market and always has been. It was different in the early 80s when Stormbringer was first released; Moorcock's novels dominated the M section of the SF and Fantasy bookshelves, and Elric and co were getting fabulous press through bands like Hawkwind and Diamondhead.

Do you remember that? Halcyon days. I spent virtually all my teenage years buying Moorcock's books when they came out, until I had as many white-spined paperbacks on my bookshelf as they did in the shops. Look at bookshops now and you'd struggle to find even the collections.

But in terms of the games, they've always occupied a small niche and that's never really changed. Stormbringer, even at its height, was never a huge seller; just enough to warrant keeping it in print and ticking over into new editions. Then the CCG explosion rocked everyone's financial boat, and Chaosium experienced severe money issues (as did everyone save WotC) and lines that simply didn't sell much, like Stormbringer, had to go onto the backburner. The last thing you do when experiencing recession like that is throw money at a product that may only break even, or, at worst, make a loss.

Well, that's it, there weren't enough supplements to generate the interest and not enough intersted people to justify supplements. Vicious Circle.

 

[Archer]

Am I the only one who loves both the novels (Hawkmoon, Elric, Corum) and the RPG?

Moorcock's works was a really nice and fresh approach to fantasy after Tolkien and Robert E. Howard. I got bitten and still think the books are good every time I reread them.
Perhaps younger readers are not as impressed with them because the diversity that are availble in fantasy litterature today.

 

[Loz]

Part of the problem is that the EC line is a niche market and always has been. It was different in the early 80s when Stormbringer was first released; Moorcock's novels dominated the M section of the SF and Fantasy bookshelves, and Elric and co were getting fabulous press through bands like Hawkwind and Diamondhead.

Do you remember that? Halcyon days. I spent virtually all my teenage years buying Moorcock's books when they came out, until I had as many white-spined paperbacks on my bookshelf as they did in the shops. Look at bookshops now and you'd struggle to find even the collections.

I certainly do! I was at Hawkwind's 'Black Sword' tour in Leicester in 1985, and Diamondhead's 'Borrowed Time' gig at Bradford in 1982 (I think!). MM's books used to span several shelves, and my own shelves heaved with all kinds of editions bought from charity shops (he had a monopoly in the M sections there) and Austicks in Leeds. Halcyon days indeed.

 

[Loz]

Am I the only one who loves both the novels (Hawkmoon, Elric, Corum) and the RPG?

Moorcock's works was a really nice and fresh approach to fantasy after Tolkien and Robert E. Howard. I got bitten and still think the books are good every time I reread them.
Perhaps younger readers are not as impressed with them because the diversity that are availble in fantasy litterature today.

Nope, I love them too. Tastes change though. MM appeals to people of a certain generation (40s to 50s - gulp!). There's a lot to enjoy in the books for a younger generation, of course, but MM was influenced by very diffierent writers to the authors dominating the fantasy shelves these days, and some of the resonances don't have the same appeal as they do for the old gits like me.

 

[Archer]

Am I the only one who loves both the novels (Hawkmoon, Elric, Corum) and the RPG?

Moorcock's works was a really nice and fresh approach to fantasy after Tolkien and Robert E. Howard. I got bitten and still think the books are good every time I reread them.
Perhaps younger readers are not as impressed with them because the diversity that are availble in fantasy litterature today.

Nope, I love them too. Tastes change though. MM appeals to people of a certain generation (40s to 50s - gulp!). There's a lot to enjoy in the books for a younger generation, of course, but MM was influenced by very diffierent writers to the authors dominating the fantasy shelves these days, and some of the resonances don't have the same appeal as they do for the old gits like me.

Well, I am of the 70's generation, an it still appeales to me
But that might be because my entry into fantasy was Tolkien and Robert E. Howards books, the only fantasy books that were available in my local library. And I read them after having read The Oddessy, the Illiad and such books. Then I found M. Moorcocks first Elric book in a store when I was on vacation, and the style of writing, the intresting characters, the fantastic adventures, and the total clash against the "normal" hero mold, got me hooked.

While some things in the books seem a bit "old" I have always accepted them because I know when the books were written, and as always and written work must be interpreted with the approach and point of view of the time it was written, not the current one. As you say, things change.

I love the Hawkmoon, Elric, Corum settings and the characters within for different reasons. Though I am not as fond of his new works (the books after Revenge of the Rose).

To me Hawkmoon is a very intresting post-apocalyptic setting, and I just love the Gran Bretans with their masks and military orders. Meliadus is just such a character, not just a simple single sided villain. For some reason I have come to view him as Hawkmoons version of Darth Vader, but with more character.

It feels like the setting really are our world, that has been destroyed after reaching a technological high point far from today, and then through the destruction it recessed into a more primitive world.

The high point for me that made me really feel the setting is a post-apocalyptic version of our world is when Hawkmoon finds the ammunition that was used for weapons in the days of old.

 

[Darran]

I certainly do! I was at Hawkwind's 'Black Sword' tour in Leicester in 1985, and Diamondhead's 'Borrowed Time' gig at Bradford in 1982 (I think!). MM's books used to span several shelves, and my own shelves heaved with all kinds of editions bought from charity shops (he had a monopoly in the M sections there) and Austicks in Leeds. Halcyon days indeed.

Hawkwind are playing at my venue on 31st October! 8)

Last time they played there in the late eighties they nearly got the place shut down. Something to do with raw kidneys being thrown by the audience. :shock:

 

[atgxtg]

I think Moorcock was expecting Chaosium to do something with his stuff, and to be honest they never did that much. Strombringer has always been a second or third string product line (either backing up RQ, or backing up CoC after the AH deal went through). He is also correct, Chaosium hasn't done avery good job in portraying his world. THe early edtions did a cut & paste job on the cultures. THe latter ones just sort of play lip service.

I disagree (but then I would... :wink: ). I, and writers like Richard Watts, made a concerted effort to get the feel of the novels right in the Chaosium material we produced. There was no 'lip service' involved. 'Unknown East' and 'Atlas of the YK' took a lot of research, cross-checking and detailed writing and rewriting. The first edtion of Stormbringer took a few liberties, but when Elric! was released, there was a mission to reflect the Elric novels properly. I think (and it's absolutely your right to disagree!) Chaosium did a pretty good job.

Part of the problem is the shifting nature of the fiction though. The YK has changed considerably over time, with countries being written in and out with new stories, new cultures created and old ones changed. The current series of Elric comics, for example, appears to rewrite the geography of the YK and its history under the Bright Empire. I can't say how, because I haven't read them, but that's my understanding.

BTW, these aren't criticisms of MM or his approach. When he released 'Revenge of the Rose' he substantially changed the geography of the Unknown East just as I was writing the initial manuscript. I think what he did with RR was a terrific, but a headache from a game writer's POV. What I'm trying to show that reflecting a dynamic world like the YK in gaming material is fraught with difficulties like this, and portraying the novels can be like trying to hit a moving target.

Let me see if I can claifiy what I meant. I did sort of use a wide paintbrush and covered everything, and that wasn't entirely accurate, or fair.

THe orginal (1st edtion) Stormbringer really only fleshed out a couple of Moorcock's kingdoms. Melnibone, Pang Tang, and the Island of Purple TOwns got decent descrioptions. HOwever, several other kindoms didn't get covered as well. Tarkesh sort of a z"Cut& Past" viking culture and Argrimiliar cost a "cut & paste" pre-industrial USA!
I think a lot of that was due to the problems inherent with creating a game from a series of short stories (possibly one reason why a lot of people here don't think as much of Moorcock's novels). THings that the writer needed for a story got detailed, things that he didn't need were sort of left undefined. THe writer can let that area sit until the time come when (or if) he decides to use it. THat makes sense for wrting, but makes it that much tougher for an RPG. Even though Elric didn't adventure much in Tarkesh or Argimilar doesn't mean the playes won't.

1st Edtion Stormbringer also suffered from the Tunnels & Troll's inspired magic system (I'm better Ken St. Andre wrote that). It has the quick & dirty feel of T&T but runs roughshod over the rest of the rules. So much so that Elric's lack of demon armor never made sense in game terms.

Now around 5th edtion/ELRIC! The game go a major reworking. The magic system was greatly toned down while still maintining the summoning stuff true to the source. Unforntauly, somone decided tothrwo in RQ "Battle Magic" type spells. Most of the magic ELric used in the books was slower, summoing stuff-now the most common magic in the game was quick & easy stuff.

I liked Unknown East, and Atlas of the YK . I just wished those books had come out a decade earlier. Stormbringer didn't get much seriouis attention until after the AH deal for RQ went through. I wasn't critical of the background for UE, as that book as it was true to the stuff Moorcock wrote before. I can't blame it for not being in line with stuff Moorcock wrote afterwards.

TBH I wish MIchael would take an interest in the RPG side, and write up a couplke of pages on the differenrrt cultures , how magic should work, etc. THat would certianly give game designers something to go by. It also gives them a way out too. If someone asks why such & such a spell works the way it does, the answer would be, becuase that it how MIke wrote it.

Hope that is more agreeable.

 

[atgxtg]

Am I the only one who loves both the novels (Hawkmoon, Elric, Corum) and the RPG?

Moorcock's works was a really nice and fresh approach to fantasy after Tolkien and Robert E. Howard. I got bitten and still think the books are good every time I reread them.
Perhaps younger readers are not as impressed with them because the diversity that are availble in fantasy litterature today.

No, I'm with you. I just suepct that not everyone is aware as to how much of an impact MM has had on the both fantasy fivtion and RPGs. Prior to MM all heroes in heroic fantasy were big brawny types like Conan. Sorcerors were always the evil villians. Elric turns all that on it's ear and opened the door for all sorts of characters to be the protagonists.

As far as RPGs go, M's impact is probably only seond to Tolkien. It is just that as most players have grown up with games that have had the benefit of tinkering with these themes, the 40 year old orginal concepts do look as fresh and innovative anymore. Things like Law vs. Chaos, and Gods taking an active hand in events, or the hero being a spellcaster and agent of a diety, and now all passe. We have "been there; done that."
It is all a sign of the passing of time.

I've had a similar problem trying to explain to a 18 year old how those "crappy" special effects he saw on TOS Star Trek won awards back when the series was being produced.

 

[Loz]

THe orginal (1st edtion) Stormbringer really only fleshed out a couple of Moorcock's kingdoms. Melnibone, Pang Tang, and the Island of Purple TOwns got decent descrioptions. HOwever, several other kindoms didn't get covered as well. Tarkesh sort of a z"Cut& Past" viking culture and Argrimiliar cost a "cut & paste" pre-industrial USA!

Very true - and some things were just wrong, such as the Weeping Waste being a mongolian-like steppe.

I think a lot of that was due to the problems inherent with creating a game from a series of short stories (possibly one reason why a lot of people here don't think as much of Moorcock's novels).

Absolutely. MM hinted at much but described little in many of the stories.

1st Edtion Stormbringer also suffered from the Tunnels & Troll's inspired magic system (I'm better Ken St. Andre wrote that). It has the quick & dirty feel of T&T but runs roughshod over the rest of the rules. So much so that Elric's lack of demon armor never made sense in game terms.

Hmmm - not sure I agree with you there. The 1st ed sorcery was very different to the usual lists of spells around in other games, and it did try to capture the feel of Elric summoning Arioch, or Theleb K'aana summoning the Chaos Butterfly. Sorcery was nasty and risky, and summoning a demon of combat was only something you did when absolutely sure of yourself.

As to how that reconciles with the books... well, Elric knew better than most the dangers of sorcery and understood the kinds of bargains you had to enter into to secure service. I can quite accept he wouldn't adorn himself with demon armour and weapons precisely because he knew the long-term consequences of such pacts. He was always a reluctant sorcerer - even for little things - so major summonings, save for those where he called upon the Beast Lords or Elementals - and even those times were reserved for absolute necessity. Magic in 1st ed was certainly unbalanced - but that was what made it such great fun and... dangerous!

Now around 5th edtion/ELRIC! The game go a major reworking. The magic system was greatly toned down while still maintining the summoning stuff true to the source. Unforntauly, somone decided tothrwo in RQ "Battle Magic" type spells.

Agree 100%. Hated the battle magic. Never used it.

Hope that is more agreeable.

Very! And thanks for an interesting and though provoking debate.

Loz

 

[Enpeze]

the magic system in vs1 of SB was "raw power" and much fun. And of course it was absolutely mad. NO balance at all.

 

[AKAramis]

Being a child of the 1970's raised on fantasy...

I grew up with Tolkien, biblicals(1), The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and wide strips of classic mythology. By high school, "Burly Conan" was sweeping the mindsets... the conan I read about was fit, but much more Ted Nugent than Arnold Schwartzenegger. Heck, I've even read Gor... in Elementary School!

Elric is an excellent idea. I just think MM's writing style to be generally poor. I've tried a half-dozen of his novels and been cured of insomnia every time.

(1) Many biblical stories, when retold outside the bible, take a strongly fantastic approach.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

As far as RPGs go, M's impact is probably only seond to Tolkien.

I'd say Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, Poul Anderson and Jack Vance are also candidates for that position.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Poul Anderson

The Broken Sword

 

[atgxtg]

As far as RPGs go, M's impact is probably only seond to Tolkien.

I'd say Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, Poul Anderson and Jack Vance are also candidates for that position.

Certainly all in the running, and all had a strong impact. Vance's magic was supposedly the one used by Gygax for D&D; Conan was and still is the archtype for Barbarians; Lieber's Newon helped to shape the "generic fantasy world" as much, if not more that Middle Earth; Anderson was probably more useful to thos who wanted a more historial or authetic feel to Earth cultures.

There are others who deserve credit too, like Fred Saberhagen and Roger Zelazny, even if they were usually more into Sci-Fi than Heroic fantasy. I'd love to see an Changeling Earth/Empire of the East RPG. Drat! mayber I should have kept that idea for an OGL product? Or maybe a MRQ Amber RPG? I wonder how much it costs to license something like that? Pretty much all the writers in the old SF magazines derseve a nod.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Vance's magic was supposedly the one used by Gygax for D&D;

:lol: :lol: :lol:

"Supposedly" doesn't even come into it... a magician who selects spells from his book each day, the "Excellent Prismatic Spray", and probably much much more which I can't remember.

All allegedly, of course. :wink:

 

[atgxtg]

Vance's magic was supposedly the one used by Gygax for D&D;

:lol: :lol: :lol:

"Supposedly" doesn't even come into it... a magician who selects spells from his book each day, the "Excellent Prismatic Spray", and probably much much more which I can't remember.

All allegedly, of course. :wink:

Gygax admiited to using the Vance stuff for his magic system. His claim was that he thought of a magic point system but dicarded the idea in favor of Vance's magic system.

I haven't read Vance, so I don't know how close D&D's magic is to Vance's.

 

[Darran]

Poul Anderson

The Broken Sword

Actually, according to the notes at the beginning of some of MM Elric books, The Broken Sword was the main inspiration for Elric.