Magister_Ordo_Lyrae
Mongoose
With regards to the DR issue my group uses that optional minimum damage rule that says any blow that hits deals at least 1 point of damage. Admittedly this does not solve the problem but it does mitigate it a little.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
New approach to Weapon Damage
- Thread starter Clovenhoof
- Start date
treeplanter
Mongoose
I did that Hervé
"For the info this week-end I allowed consecutive attack doing more than 20 to damage armor wich worked pretty well. "
"For the info this week-end I allowed consecutive attack doing more than 20 to damage armor wich worked pretty well. "
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
Today we tried something new. Our GM devised a system to speed up combat versus lowlevel characters. This replaces the regular Massive Damage rules:
A combatant receives +1d6 damage per +3 Str or Dex bonus for every 2 levels advantage he has over his opponent, and twice that amount for two-handed attacks. These extra dice explode, i.e. sixes are re-rolled and added up.
Sneak attack damage is rolled separately (as it doesn't explode).
Example: A level 8 fighter with Str 18 attacking a level 4 trooper with a two-handed blow receives +4d6 extra damage (factor 2 for 4-level advantage, factor 2 for two-handed attack, factor 1 for ability increment).
The extra damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
The double bonus for two-handed attacks of course means that two-handed attacks are very favourable (and that after we nerfed power attack...). In today's session, the damage record was set by my lv 8 Barbarian with about 65 points in a single War Sword blow.
The first playtest shows that in such constellations, a damage output between 30 and 40 points is quite easily achieved. It also heavily favours the higher-level combatants because it's pretty much a one-way ticket.
Again, keep in mind that there are no more massive damage saves - even if a lowlevel mob hits a highlevel for 20+ points, the highlevel simply deducts the damage from his HP total and proceeds.
In evenly matched fights, however, there are no more shortcuts. Neither side gets a damage bonus, but inflicting >20 points in a mighty blow does nothing for you either.
I'm not quite sure how I like this concept. On the one hand, it's a bit slow because it really takes time to add up so many dice. On the other hand, lowlevel mooks do go down in a single hit pretty reliably, so I guess it speeds up this kind of combat over all.
But with the normal rules, you always have the option against a tough opponent to take a risk (i.e. high Power Attack) for the chance to force a MDS and cut the fight short. This doesn't work without MD.
A combatant receives +1d6 damage per +3 Str or Dex bonus for every 2 levels advantage he has over his opponent, and twice that amount for two-handed attacks. These extra dice explode, i.e. sixes are re-rolled and added up.
Sneak attack damage is rolled separately (as it doesn't explode).
Example: A level 8 fighter with Str 18 attacking a level 4 trooper with a two-handed blow receives +4d6 extra damage (factor 2 for 4-level advantage, factor 2 for two-handed attack, factor 1 for ability increment).
The extra damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
The double bonus for two-handed attacks of course means that two-handed attacks are very favourable (and that after we nerfed power attack...). In today's session, the damage record was set by my lv 8 Barbarian with about 65 points in a single War Sword blow.
The first playtest shows that in such constellations, a damage output between 30 and 40 points is quite easily achieved. It also heavily favours the higher-level combatants because it's pretty much a one-way ticket.
Again, keep in mind that there are no more massive damage saves - even if a lowlevel mob hits a highlevel for 20+ points, the highlevel simply deducts the damage from his HP total and proceeds.
In evenly matched fights, however, there are no more shortcuts. Neither side gets a damage bonus, but inflicting >20 points in a mighty blow does nothing for you either.
I'm not quite sure how I like this concept. On the one hand, it's a bit slow because it really takes time to add up so many dice. On the other hand, lowlevel mooks do go down in a single hit pretty reliably, so I guess it speeds up this kind of combat over all.
But with the normal rules, you always have the option against a tough opponent to take a risk (i.e. high Power Attack) for the chance to force a MDS and cut the fight short. This doesn't work without MD.
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
I just had an idea to add in level-dependent damage. You know how we talked about the possibility to add the character level as bonus damage to every attack? The problem with this concept is that at high levels _every_ blow gets insanely powerful and forces MDS all the time.
So how about this:
Option 1:
Every character inflicts bonus damage equal to their character level
Every character gains a "hardness" equal to their character level.
This hardness is handled differently from DR. It doesn't stack with DR for purposes of Armour Piercing, but it cannot be pierced/bypassed itself.
This means that these bonuses cancel out when like-leveled characters fight each other, but give higher levels a great advantage over lowlevels, because they dish out more damage and take less. It should work pretty smoothly because you can write the values fixed on the character sheet.
Option 2:
You simply take the difference in character levels and add it as bonus to the higher character's damage. So the lowlevel inflicts the same damage as usual, but the highlevel has a much easier time reaching the magic 20 and forcing MDS.
Drawback: you have to calculate the difference for every duel.
Option 3:
As Option 1, but Hardness can only negate level bonus damage, not regular damage. Effectively works just as O.2 but may or may not be easier to manage in game.
So how about this:
Option 1:
Every character inflicts bonus damage equal to their character level
Every character gains a "hardness" equal to their character level.
This hardness is handled differently from DR. It doesn't stack with DR for purposes of Armour Piercing, but it cannot be pierced/bypassed itself.
This means that these bonuses cancel out when like-leveled characters fight each other, but give higher levels a great advantage over lowlevels, because they dish out more damage and take less. It should work pretty smoothly because you can write the values fixed on the character sheet.
Option 2:
You simply take the difference in character levels and add it as bonus to the higher character's damage. So the lowlevel inflicts the same damage as usual, but the highlevel has a much easier time reaching the magic 20 and forcing MDS.
Drawback: you have to calculate the difference for every duel.
Option 3:
As Option 1, but Hardness can only negate level bonus damage, not regular damage. Effectively works just as O.2 but may or may not be easier to manage in game.
treeplanter
Mongoose
I don't really understand where this is going.
Why boost high level character against thug? I mean, you're aleardy higher level thus much stronger. Higher base attack, higher defense, more hit point. Whats the point exactly?
Why boost high level character against thug? I mean, you're aleardy higher level thus much stronger. Higher base attack, higher defense, more hit point. Whats the point exactly?
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
The point in this specific case is to speed up combat. When there's a bunch of thugs with ~30HP each and you need three rounds for each (and 2-3 thugs per PC) that gets pretty boring soon. That' 10 rounds of combat where everyone pretty much knows how it's going to end. 10 rounds may be just a minute in game, but this minute means about 100+ die rolls which may take up 30 minutes or more at the table. (I never really clocked the time but sometimes these fights sure feel long.)
Combat is part of the game, and that's a good thing because it can be a lot of fun, but it isn't fun if it becomes a tedious war of attrition by rolling down lowlevel mobs in onesies-twosies.
Combat is part of the game, and that's a good thing because it can be a lot of fun, but it isn't fun if it becomes a tedious war of attrition by rolling down lowlevel mobs in onesies-twosies.
treeplanter
Mongoose
Well you don't really need to stack dice to speed up combat.
When it become clear that the PC are winning then either have the foes surender, or have the players take some damage while they butcher the remaining foes.
As a rule of thumb, as soon as there is less lower-level opponents than PC, and PC are in decent shape, or I feel PC are out of danger, I cut the combat down. Of course you need a bit of judgement. Like if 3 12th level PC are figthing 2 10th level guard of course you need to run down the combat. However if the same 3 12th level PC are fighting 20 elite mercenary (4th level soldier), then once they are only 3-5 foes remaining I would sure stop the combat.
When it become clear that the PC are winning then either have the foes surender, or have the players take some damage while they butcher the remaining foes.
As a rule of thumb, as soon as there is less lower-level opponents than PC, and PC are in decent shape, or I feel PC are out of danger, I cut the combat down. Of course you need a bit of judgement. Like if 3 12th level PC are figthing 2 10th level guard of course you need to run down the combat. However if the same 3 12th level PC are fighting 20 elite mercenary (4th level soldier), then once they are only 3-5 foes remaining I would sure stop the combat.
We sometimes use mook rules from somewhere where mooks have a number of HP equal to their level or something and you either nuke them or you don't do anything to them. So, bunch of "5th" level mooks run around with 5 HP (maybe you add a CON mod so it would be 8 or something). Go down easy but dangerous, unlike hordes of normal low level dudes (20 3rd level dorks or whatever) who may stick around a while but are only hitting on a 20.
This system also makes archery way, way more useful. We've used at least three different mook rules and two of them made number of attacks far more important than damage output, which completely changes the face of combat efficiency.
This system also makes archery way, way more useful. We've used at least three different mook rules and two of them made number of attacks far more important than damage output, which completely changes the face of combat efficiency.
treeplanter
Mongoose
yeah nice idea Ichabod
I also tough of changing the piling rule so instead of cumulative bonus, every ganging character get a to-hit bonus equal to the numbers of attackers they are if they are 3 or more.
So for exemple, 6 1st level thug swarming a 8th level soldier would all get +6 to hit (+8 with the flanking bonus)
You can also use an Ongoing damage per round. I used that in my last game and it worked well.
I also tough of changing the piling rule so instead of cumulative bonus, every ganging character get a to-hit bonus equal to the numbers of attackers they are if they are 3 or more.
So for exemple, 6 1st level thug swarming a 8th level soldier would all get +6 to hit (+8 with the flanking bonus)
You can also use an Ongoing damage per round. I used that in my last game and it worked well.
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
That would indeed make for a _totally_ different approach. When the majority of enemies have just 1-10HP, there's no reason to pump Strength very high, and Dex becomes much more interesting.
Warriors would still go for Great Cleave, but the weapon of choice would not be Bardiche or Greatsword, or even Broadsword, but in fact the run-of-the mill STAFF.
2d4+1,5xStr will be sufficient to one-shot most mobs.
You'd pump Dex high and take Combat Reflexes, which in combination with the Staff would let you make lots of AoOs.
And of course archery would be very interesting for at least half of the group, while the other half protects the archers with their staves.
Maybe take along one conventionally skilled high-strength Bosskiller to take care of those high-level enemies that get full HP. But the rest of the group can specialize in dishing out many attacks with piddly damage.
Warriors would still go for Great Cleave, but the weapon of choice would not be Bardiche or Greatsword, or even Broadsword, but in fact the run-of-the mill STAFF.
2d4+1,5xStr will be sufficient to one-shot most mobs.
You'd pump Dex high and take Combat Reflexes, which in combination with the Staff would let you make lots of AoOs.
And of course archery would be very interesting for at least half of the group, while the other half protects the archers with their staves.
Maybe take along one conventionally skilled high-strength Bosskiller to take care of those high-level enemies that get full HP. But the rest of the group can specialize in dishing out many attacks with piddly damage.
Well, we haven't used the mook rules often enough to want to build different characters or anything. It's just a way to handle horde fights as they occur while throwing a bone to characters with terrible damage output.
Again, the GM has the capability of making every character equally useful. It's just a matter of being interested in coming up with more complex combat scenarios, like the 20 1HP archers standing 15' apart or the fight on 10' foot, icy platforms over bottomless pits during a hurricane.
We also have faced a lot of stuff that is immune to crits and sneak attack, yet every PC has levels in thief except one, including the guy who can easily average over 40HP of damage per hit without SA.
Again, the GM has the capability of making every character equally useful. It's just a matter of being interested in coming up with more complex combat scenarios, like the 20 1HP archers standing 15' apart or the fight on 10' foot, icy platforms over bottomless pits during a hurricane.
We also have faced a lot of stuff that is immune to crits and sneak attack, yet every PC has levels in thief except one, including the guy who can easily average over 40HP of damage per hit without SA.
