Neutered Shadows?
- Thread starter Alcibiades
- Start date
I have found that keeping your fighters loaded and ready within your ships can work a treat - if they stay there it can force your opponent to keep his fighters back to cover his ships. The shaddow fighters may not be able to dogfight but they can kill ships. They are a distraction at best but can make them annoying rather than pointless which is at least something..... They are still rubbish.
Cool guide Hash, will def give that another read through.
Play Arrmageddon level games with shaddows. Then the PL system will reduce the number of White Stars facing you.
Good luck!
Cool guide Hash, will def give that another read through.
Play Arrmageddon level games with shaddows. Then the PL system will reduce the number of White Stars facing you.
Good luck!
Alcibiades
Mongoose
Thank you one and all and particularly Hash for the tips on the Shadow fleet.
Hash's guide goes a long way in confirming that the Shadows are not a terribly powerful fleet, in part due to the limitations imposed by the FAP breakdown, and in part by the single, forward arc weapons system and almost complete inability to deal with fighters. IMHO, on the tabletop they are not the dire and deadly fleet depicted in the series. As long as the opponent keeps his ships within supporting distance of each other, the Shadows will face a ton of AD after making his final shots and before he can run away to repair and regenerate.
Seems to me, and I know it has been argued before, that a turretted weapon system would more accurately portray the ship and give them a bit more bite. Failing that, a little AF would go a long way as pointed out in the Annihilation scenario stalemate thread.
Again, thanks all. What a great community....
Kent
Hash's guide goes a long way in confirming that the Shadows are not a terribly powerful fleet, in part due to the limitations imposed by the FAP breakdown, and in part by the single, forward arc weapons system and almost complete inability to deal with fighters. IMHO, on the tabletop they are not the dire and deadly fleet depicted in the series. As long as the opponent keeps his ships within supporting distance of each other, the Shadows will face a ton of AD after making his final shots and before he can run away to repair and regenerate.
Seems to me, and I know it has been argued before, that a turretted weapon system would more accurately portray the ship and give them a bit more bite. Failing that, a little AF would go a long way as pointed out in the Annihilation scenario stalemate thread.
Again, thanks all. What a great community....
Kent
yeah, lots of suggestions have been made about fighters and shadows. I still like that they give up firing the main gun for a turn and get that many dice of advanced anti-fighter, and allow them to use intensify defensive fire SA. They could then sweep around their main beam killing hordes of fighters just like in the show. Doesn't solve the bomber issue, but at least reduces the problem.
Ripple
Ripple
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
and dont forget the Shadows Scream
Ripple said:
Really? Doh! Well then I cheated (only a little :wink: ) last game I played (sorry Jim!). He engaged one of my shadow fighters with two flights of Falkosi (killing it obviously) but I returned fire with a Shadow Scout and killed both flights and also 4 flights of pikatos...not bad for 6AD!
Ripple said:
I like this idea - fits the series well (thinking of the episode where a Shadow Ship beams down a few Frazi with consummate ease!)
What I meant about the Shadow Battle level being a turd is not the model since I dont think there is one yet. I was mainly referring to the stat line of the Shadow Battle level choice. I would never take that ship. Comparing it to the Psi Corp battle level choice or really most any other races battle level choice, the Shadow choice is crap. It has really no hope for survival.
victor romeo
Mongoose
Jetbaker said:
You jest I assume; I'd back a Shadow Stalker one on one against almost any other Battle level ship. If you can stay out of the front arc, not too hard with the initiative bonus, then you can dance around taking hits from secondaries on your shields and Triple Damage beaming them to death.
Of course if the other fellow has initiative sinks then it gets a bit more challenging.
Whilst playing with shadows and ISA I found that at raid (1 young one, 1 scout), the shadows would account for the ISA, targetting the ship that moved first, and eventually the ISA run out of initiative sinks. The ISA will deal out a lot of damage, but not quite enough in my experience.
However, at higher levels, the young ones seem to become very vulnerable, the opposition concentrate on one ship, and often end up pinning it and finishing it off in 2 turns.
I would agree that terrain is the Shadows friend, and in the few scenarios that allow it, hyperspace into advantageous positions.
However, at higher levels, the young ones seem to become very vulnerable, the opposition concentrate on one ship, and often end up pinning it and finishing it off in 2 turns.
I would agree that terrain is the Shadows friend, and in the few scenarios that allow it, hyperspace into advantageous positions.
Alcibiades
Mongoose
Again, thanks everybody for your thoughts and suggestions.
Have had a couple of more Shadows v. ISA games at about 8 pts. battle and while the Shadows have done better, the ISA have not lost a game, regardless of who is playing them.
I provide a few further thoughts and observations for your consideration.
Now that Shadows can suffer the effects of criticals, they are very susceptible having only one weapon system (assuming FDT and JPD are not weapons systems) and one arc of fire. Additionally, we have found that it is not really that difficult to stun any but the Ancient and then it is all over but the crying. Send in fighters or use a WS to knock out the shields and then with another WS or two and a little bit of luck....Boom.
Personally, I think the beam should return to being turretted. The series seems to show the ship sort of rotating as it fired its beam. Also, would like to see some 2 or 3 AD short range accurate weapons system or AF. That would make up, in part, for the lack of initiative sinks and the restrictive fleet list. Ripples suggestion regarding double use of the main beam has some merit but not being accurate, can't see them having much/any impact on opposing fighters regardless of range.
Fortunately, being stuck out here on the Canadian praires, we can houserule whatever changes we want and nobody else need worry about it.
Anyway, time to make the Shadows the feared opponent they are depicted as. As always, I look forward to your (collective) thoughts.
Kent
Have had a couple of more Shadows v. ISA games at about 8 pts. battle and while the Shadows have done better, the ISA have not lost a game, regardless of who is playing them.
I provide a few further thoughts and observations for your consideration.
Now that Shadows can suffer the effects of criticals, they are very susceptible having only one weapon system (assuming FDT and JPD are not weapons systems) and one arc of fire. Additionally, we have found that it is not really that difficult to stun any but the Ancient and then it is all over but the crying. Send in fighters or use a WS to knock out the shields and then with another WS or two and a little bit of luck....Boom.
Personally, I think the beam should return to being turretted. The series seems to show the ship sort of rotating as it fired its beam. Also, would like to see some 2 or 3 AD short range accurate weapons system or AF. That would make up, in part, for the lack of initiative sinks and the restrictive fleet list. Ripples suggestion regarding double use of the main beam has some merit but not being accurate, can't see them having much/any impact on opposing fighters regardless of range.
Fortunately, being stuck out here on the Canadian praires, we can houserule whatever changes we want and nobody else need worry about it.
Anyway, time to make the Shadows the feared opponent they are depicted as. As always, I look forward to your (collective) thoughts.
Kent
The whitestars upgrade to a 2 AD beam wasn't justified in second ed, and I have a hard time seeing them not whip the pants off most folks now days. Their one theoretical drawback was lack of sinks in the pure 'whitestar fleet' but there is virtually no reason to play the restricted list that way. With the bluestar and allies, and the skirmish levels ships added, one of the most winning fleets in the game got a blanket upgrade.
Try the shadows vs something else once or twice just to see if it is a rock paper scissor issue rather than a shadow fleet issue.
Second, the dual purpose idea was to give it anti-fighter or as Triggy upgraded the idea anti-fighter at range. Would help clear the fighters without reversing the issue your dealing with. If you main weapon was accurate the WS fleet, designed to combat the shadows, would be useless against them.
On ancients and crits... I happen to agree that the old races got screwed by the change. The single weapon arc (or single weapon) makes them much more vulnerable to crits than younger races as virtually every weapon hit is significant. That there are so few AD on the weapons just ads insult to injury. Yes the crits will repair, but almost certainly to be replaced as the ancients have no defense that avoids 'hits' unlike the younger races making crits more likely to pile up during a turn. Once it happens getting out from under may prove impossible.
Add in the needlessly restrictive SA lists...well...whole other thread there eh?
It's not impossible to fight the ancients as a choice now, just hard against a number of opponents. And I would think they would be one of the easier to play ones.
Ripple
Try the shadows vs something else once or twice just to see if it is a rock paper scissor issue rather than a shadow fleet issue.
Second, the dual purpose idea was to give it anti-fighter or as Triggy upgraded the idea anti-fighter at range. Would help clear the fighters without reversing the issue your dealing with. If you main weapon was accurate the WS fleet, designed to combat the shadows, would be useless against them.
On ancients and crits... I happen to agree that the old races got screwed by the change. The single weapon arc (or single weapon) makes them much more vulnerable to crits than younger races as virtually every weapon hit is significant. That there are so few AD on the weapons just ads insult to injury. Yes the crits will repair, but almost certainly to be replaced as the ancients have no defense that avoids 'hits' unlike the younger races making crits more likely to pile up during a turn. Once it happens getting out from under may prove impossible.
Add in the needlessly restrictive SA lists...well...whole other thread there eh?
It's not impossible to fight the ancients as a choice now, just hard against a number of opponents. And I would think they would be one of the easier to play ones.
Ripple
Alcibiades
Mongoose
Ripple, I understand and agree with many of your points.
With respect to a dual purpose main weapon system, I don't think it would help against fighters. Without the accurate trait you are not likely to hit fighters anyway. AF doesn't really, imho, fit with canon. Therefore, my suggestion for a turretted short range weapons system with limited attack dice and damage and the accurated trait.
I do appreciate that the ISA are an excellant fleet and play as such. Also, they were designed to combat the Shadows. So, I will pit the Shadows against Minbari and EA 3rd Age later this week at 8 - 10 Battle points and see how things turn out. However, I don't really expect too much of a different result, though the "stun" may be slightly harder to achieve. The bottom line is that the Shadows will be outnumbered allowing the opposition to concentrate on capital ships and though not squadroned as per the rules, able to take advantage of multiple shots on target. As Ripple rightly points out, the volume of fire will almost certainly result in criticals being scored that can easily silence the Ship. As far as repairing criticals is concerned, I have yet to see a Shadow ship survive long enough to repair criticals even with lots of terrain. The 16" double move for Young and Ancients really is not that far and certainly will not take them out of most weapons ranges. Further, there is a pretty good chance that there will be no enemies in the arc of fire once the move is finished.
I also tend to agree that the main weapons system is not quite strong enough. Perhaps the molecular slicer should hit on a 3-6. Seems to me I recall an episode where Delenn was saying Shadows don't miss and was astonished when a WS did in fact avoid the beam. So, perhaps we can conclude that most ships will be hit by the Shadows and that it was the "dodge trait" that allowed the WS to escape.
Please don't get me wrong. I really like the game and appreciate that there is no set of rules for any genre or period that pleases everyone. It just seems to me the Shadows should just be scarier/nastier.
My 2 cents.
Kent
With respect to a dual purpose main weapon system, I don't think it would help against fighters. Without the accurate trait you are not likely to hit fighters anyway. AF doesn't really, imho, fit with canon. Therefore, my suggestion for a turretted short range weapons system with limited attack dice and damage and the accurated trait.
I do appreciate that the ISA are an excellant fleet and play as such. Also, they were designed to combat the Shadows. So, I will pit the Shadows against Minbari and EA 3rd Age later this week at 8 - 10 Battle points and see how things turn out. However, I don't really expect too much of a different result, though the "stun" may be slightly harder to achieve. The bottom line is that the Shadows will be outnumbered allowing the opposition to concentrate on capital ships and though not squadroned as per the rules, able to take advantage of multiple shots on target. As Ripple rightly points out, the volume of fire will almost certainly result in criticals being scored that can easily silence the Ship. As far as repairing criticals is concerned, I have yet to see a Shadow ship survive long enough to repair criticals even with lots of terrain. The 16" double move for Young and Ancients really is not that far and certainly will not take them out of most weapons ranges. Further, there is a pretty good chance that there will be no enemies in the arc of fire once the move is finished.
I also tend to agree that the main weapons system is not quite strong enough. Perhaps the molecular slicer should hit on a 3-6. Seems to me I recall an episode where Delenn was saying Shadows don't miss and was astonished when a WS did in fact avoid the beam. So, perhaps we can conclude that most ships will be hit by the Shadows and that it was the "dodge trait" that allowed the WS to escape.
Please don't get me wrong. I really like the game and appreciate that there is no set of rules for any genre or period that pleases everyone. It just seems to me the Shadows should just be scarier/nastier.
My 2 cents.
Kent
You don't need accurate to hit fighters if you are AF, as AF negates dodge on fighters. If we went with Triggy's suggestion of leaving the full range, you'd end up with a 18 inch range turret that ignores the dodge of fighters. Seem to me that is both fairly good at killing fighters and fairly canon even if the vorlons seem to avoid it. If we allowed Shadows the intensify defensive fire SA you'd be looking a a fairly big stack of dice.
I'm only against adding a second weapon line to the shadows as we never see the big ships fire anything but the beam, even at fighters. Another mode seemed more in character.
Ripple
I'm only against adding a second weapon line to the shadows as we never see the big ships fire anything but the beam, even at fighters. Another mode seemed more in character.
Ripple
Ripple - I'm with you both on the White Stars and the Shadow's beam.
I can explain the main thinking behind the White Star's beam though - several people considered 1AD to be too inconsistant (which it is) so 2AD was needed to mean you hit often enough to normally cause at least some damage (which it also now does). The flipside is that this doubles the amount of beam firepower, particularly the high end of hits (e.g. you get 4+ hits with triple damage and precise) with no penalty.
It is now much more consistant at getting at least one hit but has about 25% extra firepower as a ship with little to compensate. For a beginner/poor tactician White Stars can rush in, get amongst the enemy and still come out on top half of the time. Once you get the hang of using the White Star properly (using its speed, turns, etc. to keep on the edge of range and out of arc), its power increases a lot. This is actually one reason why the Shadows appear weak - they are a tricksy fleet to get "right" but once you do, they are very potent indeed!
I can explain the main thinking behind the White Star's beam though - several people considered 1AD to be too inconsistant (which it is) so 2AD was needed to mean you hit often enough to normally cause at least some damage (which it also now does). The flipside is that this doubles the amount of beam firepower, particularly the high end of hits (e.g. you get 4+ hits with triple damage and precise) with no penalty.
It is now much more consistant at getting at least one hit but has about 25% extra firepower as a ship with little to compensate. For a beginner/poor tactician White Stars can rush in, get amongst the enemy and still come out on top half of the time. Once you get the hang of using the White Star properly (using its speed, turns, etc. to keep on the edge of range and out of arc), its power increases a lot. This is actually one reason why the Shadows appear weak - they are a tricksy fleet to get "right" but once you do, they are very potent indeed!
