MRQ and character survivability

[Scut Farkas]

I'm not sure about d20 as it exists now, but going back to AD&D, I always understood the hit points to represent more than just health. It was supposed to represent all the dodging, feinting, parrying, etc, that takes place in combat. A level 10 Fighter was not necessarily healthier or stronger than a level 1 fighter, but his experience and skill had increased to the point that his hit points reflected that skill. It's not a system based on realism, necessarily, but it also isn't meant to imply that you are physically taking hit after hit after hit. RuneQuest, in any incarnation, is great for reflecting the grittiness of combat with just enough realism. Too much realism in a game tends to lead down the dark and twisted path of far too many rules to be fun for the players.

 

[atgxtg]

Judas,

Some of the things you are not taking into account for your firearms lethaility is just how long it took for the wounds to be fatal (if they are able to functon long enough to shoot back its a problem). or how they treat multiple gunshot wounds (if someone gets shot six times and dies does that count as six fatalities or five survive results and one fatality?). Guys getting shot and being up long enough to shoot back, even from a lethal injury is more the rule than the exception.

And the point is that this stuff is not that silly. Take a better look at the data and you will see that the "guy drops dead" thing is more the wishful thinking exception than the rule. AI7m not saying that a gunshot wound won't kill someone. Just that is is rarely a quick and tidy. There are plenty of cases in the real world where people did get hit with a musket ball and fought on. Black power was notoriously inconsistent, especially when hand loaded under stress condition, in a damp enviornment. Espeically with a weapon that doesn't shoot straight, so you can't be certain that you will hit a vital organ.

As a side note, the modern 5.56mm bullet used in the M16 was purposely designed to wound rather than kill.


As for the impact hurling someone ten feet away. That's Hollywood. Real world pysics here. If a musket ball had enough force to knock someone prone, then the guy who fired the musket would also be thrown back with enough force to knock him prone. Equal an opposite reaction. If the target gets thrown back ten feet, he's wearing a rig. Where or not some one drops depends of if the have taken damage that prevents them rom standing (spinal column, kneecap) or if they have the will to keep standing. Someone who is stubborn, determined, or just plain pissed enough might still be standing (and that is one of the other effects of the adrenaline dump).

If firearms did work the way you suggest, then we wouldn't have all these new manstopper calibers and ammunition.

Try hunting with a musket sometime.

Or do some research into ballistics. The FBI has some nice stuff aviailable. You see just how unreliable firearm wounds can be. Even Stopping power is used to represent that the target can't immediately return fire, not that he is taken out of the fight.


Or for taking a mukset hit, are you willing to stand there and take a hit from my very blunt sword first? Odds are, you'll still be able to get a shot off, but neither of us would enjoy it.

It's just almost never "bang you're dead".

 

[atgxtg]

I'm not sure about d20 as it exists now, but going back to AD&D, I always understood the hit points to represent more than just health. It was supposed to represent all the dodging, feinting, parrying, etc, that takes place in combat. A level 10 Fighter was not necessarily healthier or stronger than a level 1 fighter, but his experience and skill had increased to the point that his hit points reflected that skill. It's not a system based on realism, necessarily, but it also isn't meant to imply that you are physically taking hit after hit after hit. RuneQuest, in any incarnation, is great for reflecting the grittiness of combat with just enough realism. Too much realism in a game tends to lead down the dark and twisted path of far too many rules to be fun for the players.

Quite correct. D&D has always claimedhit points to represent more than just wounds. The problem is that they never really stuck by their model. For instance if only the final wound is major (as per the AD&D DMG) then why did cure light wounds only heal a small amount of HP? Or why did it take days and days to "heal" from scratches when it only takes a week or two to recover from a life threating injury. Or the difference between subdual damage and lethal damage (why doe you heal faster from a dodged fist then a dodged knife?).


They just were not consistent with it.

 

[Voriof]

[

I'll go Beserk on your arse.

:twisted:

Hmm, and I thought you had those celibacy gesas. Guess you'll have to face the Spririts of Reprisal.

But seriously, Yelmalions going berserk? Seems like the cults have gotten too generic. A good part of Glorantha7s appeal was the variety among the diffenbrt cults. Orlanth, Storm Bull, Yelamalio, Humakt, Zoaran Zoran and others were all "war gods" in some sense, and yet all were quite different.

Has it been reduced to D&D genric war god, healing god, sun god stuff? I.e.

<INSERT GOD'S NAME HERE>
War Cult writeup

I do not know. The generic deity spell lists do not mix well with observed Glorantha. Unfortunately, these were substituted for more explicit spell lists originally provided.

Jeff

 

[RMS]

As a side note, the modern 5.56mm bullet used in the M16 was purposely designed to wound rather than kill.

I've heard that rumor for years, but never seen anything that substantiates it. What is true, in a related way, is that the Soviet 5.45 was designed specifically to move in such a way as to do maximum damage once inside the body. That was done intentionally to keep the amount of damage of the round as close as possible to the damage of WP 7.62 it was replacing. In both cases, it's accepted that the 5.56 and 5.45 do not deliver the same blow as the respective 7.62 rounds they replaced. The trade-off is that with lighter rounds and a lighter gun, a soldier is able to carry about 100 more rounds of ammunition. The additional ammunition is a much bigger deal that a bit of extra damage that an individual round inflicts.

As for the impact hurling someone ten feet away. That's Hollywood. Real world pysics here. If a musket ball had enough force to knock someone prone, then the guy who fired the musket would also be thrown back with enough force to knock him prone. Equal an opposite reaction.

Well, there is a small range where the difference in the mass of the round and firearm would make the difference in one person being knocked flat and the other not (though they'd probably still be facing a separated shoulder!). Otherwise, exactly true.

It's just almost never "bang you're dead".

Give me a .50 cal or bigger and we can make it "bang you're dead" in most cases. While I accept your point about most lethal wounds not being immediately deadly, I don't buy that most lethal wounds (not to mention a good many nonlethal wounds) also act to take someone out of the immediate firefight. In fact, from what I've read I'm inclined to accept that in most cases, the first serious wound of a fight takes someone out of effectively fighting. Yes, someone might shoot after already being hit, but their odds of hitting back are extremely small. Yes, someone who's been shot (especially with a small round handgun) might continue with a knife, but those warnings are more about not relaxing, then about it frequently happening or being the normal course of action. I actually like Willpower rolls to show this effect. It doesn't work in RQ, but I did put it in my homebrew and am still debating if it's too fiddly or not.

 

[TRose]

OK as far as being shot goes. As some one who has worked as an EMT and as a med tech I do know something about this. With proper medical care Gunshot wounds tend not to be fatal unless its a shot to the heart or right part of Brain. I once took care of a Lady who took 2 bullets in the head and she lost here ability to speak but she could still write notes to communicate . Another Woman I know got hit 7 times(3 in the leg 2 in the breast and each in arm and stomach area) But since they did not hit any bones or arteries she was out in 2 weeks. If you want to really kill some one in one shot I understand a shot gun is the only weapon that has a high percentage of one shot kills
But getting shot hurts alot . I yet to see anyone outside a western or war movie that wants to do anything beside cry after they get shot. But I know there are strong willed people that can function after receiving a fatal wound.
Best example of some one I know continuing on after a fatal wound was General Albert Sidney Johnson during the Battle of Shiloh in the American Civil War. After taking a musket ball in the leg , he said it was just a scratch put a rag on it to stop the bleeding and later that day fell over dead( Failed his first aid roll )

 

[atgxtg]

Thank's TRose,

I did work in a hosptial for a few years, and spent time in the Trauma room, and my experience matches pretty closes with what TRose wrote. I think I still have a bullet from a gunshot victim. From my experience, if they are alive when they hit the Trauma Room, they are probably going to make it.

Likese, pretty much any gunshot (or other) wound can prove fatal without proper treatment. In the past, people didn't die as much from the wounds, as from the infection that set in later.

Pretty much any decent hit from any weapon will make the average person want to stop, clutch the wound, and cry. Obne of the biggest problems with green soldiers is that they have a quite reasonable tendancy to duck for cover and stay there when they firast get shot at, so much so that they don't want to even shoot back.

 

[Puck]

Best example of some one I know continuing on after a fatal wound was General Albert Sidney Johnson during the Battle of Shiloh in the American Civil War. After taking a musket ball in the leg , he said it was just a scratch put a rag on it to stop the bleeding and later that day fell over dead( Failed his first aid roll )

The Civil war has a lot of crazy stories like that. My favorate was Gordon, who was the confederate commander at the sunken road at Sharpsburg. He was shot four times, quite seriously, but he continued to limp up and down and command his men. The fifth shot went through his face. He fell face first into his hat and almost drowned in his own blood, but a bullet put a hole in his hat and the blood drained out (He must have rolled a few consecutive critical resiliance rolls). He eventually recovered from his wounds and became governor of Georgia.

These kind of stories make me believe that some of the heroic and somewhat campy events that happen in books, movies and of course role-playing are somewhat possible.

 

[atgxtg]

The real reason why most people drop when they get hit/hurt is more of a common sense thing than the injury. Their brain goes through a sort of "OHMYGOD I've been shot/stabbed/cut/bashed/bit" reaction and decides that it doesn't want to do this anymore. History is full of examples of people who were motived or mentally conditoned being able to fight on for quite awhile.

Just think of the state of shcok most of us went through when we got hurt as a child. A "boo-boo" was a major event, casuing major trauma that lasted until Mommy took care of it and treated it with the magic that was band-aid.

Last week I stepped on a nail, and treated it with the magic that is profanity.

Sort of the same thing, but kicked up a couple orders of magnitude.

 

[blitz]

I think you also have to look at our perceptions of being shot. When I was getting out of law enforcement a few years ago, they were starting to change a bit in the way we were being trained. Old school training was teaching that when you were shot, you were dead. So when you were doing scenarios, if someone got the drop on you it was over. They were finding a high percentage of those who recieved non-fatal gun shot wounds would die from shock, even when there was appropriate medical care there. They contributed this to their training, that when they were shot it was over. What they started doing then was that in training when you were "shot", you kept going, that when you were shot it didn't mean it was over. Now to add to this, I got to see some video of a few officers who had been fataly shot and survived, due to that way of thinking. One guy sticks out in my mind the most is one that had it happen to him twice. Both times he continued to take out the bad guy, one while knocked to the ground, where he stayed even after the situation was over, and medics arrived. He stayed where he laid to keep pressure on the torso shots he recieved. The whole time he kept saying to himself that "no punk mother f*****, is ever going to take me out".
I think how people deal with any injury is set on a number of things, what they are taught, what they experience, their conditioning, and their own will power. I believe will power is the biggest factor.

 

[atgxtg]

blitz,

Yeah, exactly. That sort of holds true for illness too. If you believe that something is going to kill you, you are probably right.

 

[Scut Farkas]

atgxtg,

I follow what you're saying. The point of all of this was very specific (I don't remember who posted what and when now!), I think, in that a pirate who had been shot (with a critical) in the abdomen by a flintlock pistol, at best fell unconcious and in reality stayed awake and only suffered a -10 pentalty to his actions. I THINK I'm recalling this correctly - I may not be. I don't think anything was said about people flying 10 feet after being shot or anything like that. He was shot from 10 feet away, which is very close and allows the round to still have very significant energy at impact, and it was already established that he was hit and that it was a critical, so reliability and accuracy were not accounted for here. The end result, I'm arguing, is that at the very least the pirate should have been prone and lost plenty of combat actions if not dead. The system doesn't take into account distance, so the energy of the round doesn't really matter overall in game terms. BUT, being a critical already, it does maximum damage. His point, I think, was that even then it wasn't enough to kill the pirate and my argument was that it should have and I would roll damage twice.

Something like that, anyway! I'm lost...

 

[atgxtg]

Oh, that brings me around 180 degree then.

While I have been mentioning how people with serious and lethal injuries CAN keep fighting on, often they don't, and often people with less severe injuries are taken out of a fight too.

Personally, I'm for pretty much any hit requiring a resilience roll to keep functioning. Even those one and two point hits hurt. Maybe like check to see if you loose your CAs for the rest of the turn, or next turn.

 

[TRose]

Oh, that brings me around 180 degree then.


Personally, I'm for pretty much any hit requiring a resilience roll to keep functioning. Even those one and two point hits hurt. Maybe like check to see if you loose your CAs for the rest of the turn, or next turn.

I can agree with that. I mean we all had done things like stub our toe and cracked our big toe nail, hit our thumb with a hammer or have had a severe cramp in our leg or other injuries that would have been 1 point or even less in runequest, but had we had to get in a major fight just then they would have hinder us badly.

 

[atgxtg]

Oh, that brings me around 180 degree then.


Personally, I'm for pretty much any hit requiring a resilience roll to keep functioning. Even those one and two point hits hurt. Maybe like check to see if you loose your CAs for the rest of the turn, or next turn.

I can agree with that. I mean we all had done things like stub our toe and cracked our big toe nail, hit our thumb with a hammer or have had a severe cramp in our leg or other injuries that would have been 1 point or even less in runequest, but had we had to get in a major fight just then they would have hinder us badly.

Yup. In fact, in my own experience, it is usually the minor annyoing injuries that really hurt right away. When I get really hurt, it seems to take a minute or so for the pain to kick in. I sort of go through a "Oh no, this is gonna hurt" thing. Probably the panic of getting inuried had my adrenal gland relase a bunch of endorphins.

 

[Scut Farkas]

That's a very good point. A sprained wrist, for instance, would seriously hamper your ability to wield a sword in that hand, even though technically there wouldn't be much in the way of hit points removed from that arm. I guess, though, if things got that realistic, there would be too many rules for players to enjoy the game.

 

[atgxtg]

That's a very good point. A sprained wrist, for instance, would seriously hamper your ability to wield a sword in that hand, even though technically there wouldn't be much in the way of hit points removed from that arm. I guess, though, if things got that realistic, there would be too many rules for players to enjoy the game.

Depends upon the implementation and tastes of the players. I can think of a few RPs that do stuff like that and it works. One game in particular has character make a Pain Resistance roll for each hit, and the character can't act until they shrug off the pain. Also, injuries give penalties to actions, based on their severity. So even through a character's legs might be fine, a broken arm or two would slow them down.

 

[Scut Farkas]

Yeah, I agree with that. I'm saying if it got realistic enough to keep up with sprains and such, it would get too complicated. If I remember right, GURPS made you lose your next action if you were hit, by default. It was a way of simulating the fact that when you get hit it stuns you for a second, from the pain and shock. That's not always realistic either, though. That's why just about every game has house rules. Every system's got its pros and cons.

 

[atgxtg]

Yeah, I agree with that. I'm saying if it got realistic enough to keep up with sprains and such, it would get too complicated. If I remember right, GURPS made you lose your next action if you were hit, by default. It was a way of simulating the fact that when you get hit it stuns you for a second, from the pain and shock. That's not always realistic either, though. That's why just about every game has house rules. Every system's got its pros and cons.

Not quite. GURPS gave you a penalty on your next attack action based on the damage taken.

And like I posted before. It doesn't need to be very complicated. Just what makes for "too complicated" is very subjective through. Even something as simple as requiring a resilience test after getting hurt would have a big impact for very little complexity.