Mongoose We Want 2E Counters.

[BuShips]

I knew what you meant and you are correct that they'd work. Very easy to pick up, too. I've made custom counters for SST, using them for showing ammo status, etc. This was before several of the "laser cut" guys started offering cut plastic.

I was actually thinking of these guys, but I couldn't remember their name...

I only suggested the wooden discs because I haven't found a good source for a wide range of diameters in plastic. Do you know of any?

ShopKeepJon

Well, I was going to suggest Litko. :lol: As you know, they use lasers for precise cuts. Also, GF9 (Gale Force Nine) has already worked with Mongoose and have licensed product for sale for SST and ACTA.

EDIT: I added a link to Litko's space gaming tokens. Either circles done on plastic or on wood would be fine as "underlayment" for counters.

http://www.litkoaero.com/page/LAI/CTGY/TS_SPACE

 

[Myrm]

I'd be happy with PDFs that I could buy, and just print out on my own cardstock (say 1 pdf per fleet, at about $4-5 each?)

But I'd PREFER good quality countersheets I could buy

Either works for me.

The problem I had with miniatures for ActA was the same as any ruleset specific mini - simply this, they are less useable under any non-B5 rules set unlike say a set of 1/3000 WWII minis for VaS, so people at the club were not going to buy them. I couldnt afford to buy minis for a decent range of battles, let alone a full campaign so a cardstock based system would be just right for me and really help promote the game at my local club - either strong SFB-Megahex-alike thick cardstocks or a PDF I can print out to my hearts content on lighter cardstock (I own the book version so a 'fleet pack' PDF is quite attractive). Full colour is IMO quite important here - good colour counters are a reasonable second for 3D.

Our players go for VaS with counters in a big way, and I see it being unlikely to change with ActA. Anything to help us play.

 

[mrambassador1]

As I've stated many times before (in the RIP thread and another thread I started a few months ago that is eerily similar to this one) I am a big fan of counters. My group is 100% counters and this is what originally drew us into the game, finally a miniatures game with counters for all the pieces so you can play every fleet in the game right out of the box and don't have to shell out $200 - $400 just to get a decent fleet (oh no, not for a complete fleet, just an average everyday run of the mill fleet damn you Games WORKSHOP!!!!! DAMN YOU)

Now that the minis are being discontinued I think it is more important than ever to have counters (and would probably sell very well as everyone tries to get what they can before mongoose stops supporting the game if they do. Have you seen the ebay bidding for some of the mongoose stuff, I've seen less fierce bidding for canned food after an Earthquake!) I definitely think photos of the minis from above would be great as I suggested in the RIP thread, and the thick cardstock Ideas suggested here are good too. I don't know about splitting the fleets up though, I suppose it would depend on the cost, if the complete counter set was less than $100AU say 30 - 50 pounds I think I'd prefer a complete set, if however it was more, then seperate fleet sets would probably be better say for about 5-10 pounds each.

I am a huge supporter of counters and would love to hear some official feedback from Matt, if its probable it would probably ease a lot of concerns and if not at least it stops us getting our hopes up only to be dissapointed in a month.

I refuse to live in a world where Games Workshop keeps motoring Along WHile a GreaT GaME like ACTA FAlls OFF THE RADAR. STUPID GAMES WORKSHOP YOu lOUsy CHeap **&# pieces of *#&^$$<. Why don't YOU SHOVE YOUR DAMN COdEx books &#^%%@^# &#^# &#^^# **#&# . (#&&**$*#& RIP OFF #*^&^**$ &#^*&$ !. **#&#(($&&# scuM *(&#%*$##%$^$ &#^#@%#$*&# *#&$^#%@ I'll GIVE YOU NON SANCTIONED *#&^^* *#^$ 83^&$($&^&^#^#&*$&$^$^^&%$$#$#!$#@#$@#$@$#@#@$#@@$#@$#$$#@#$$#@#@$@#@$##$#$#@$####$$%$# coDEX**%&^%&^%^*&^&^%*&&^*^&$#$#@##$@$#$##@###$#@$##$#@$#@$#@#$$##$@##$$#@#$#@#$##@#$$#@$##@#$##rULES PLUS RACE BOOKS(**^&*^*^%*&^*&^^&*&^*&^&^%&^%&%^&^*&^*&^*^&*^18RACES (^*&^&%*&*^#@$#$@$#@#$#@#$#$$#%$#$#DIE%^^%$^%$^%$%$^^^%$%%$^#%#@@$#@ and TAKE YOUR *&%^#$%$#%$%$%$$#%$$$#%$%$#%$%$#%%$#%#%$#%$%$#%$#$%YOU.

 

[Chernobyl]

"...and that's when I shot him, your honor."

:lol:

 

[ShopKeepJon]

I refuse to live in a world where Games Workshop keeps motoring Along WHile a GreaT GaME like ACTA FAlls OFF THE RADAR. STUPID GAMES WORKSHOP YOu lOUsy CHeap **&# pieces of *#&^$$<. Why don't YOU SHOVE YOUR DAMN COdEx books &#^%%@^# &#^# &#^^# **#&# . (#&&**$*#& RIP OFF #*^&^**$ &#^*&$ !. **#&#(($&&# scuM *(&#%*$##%$^$ &#^#@%#$*&# *#&$^#%@ I'll GIVE YOU NON SANCTIONED *#&^^* *#^$ 83^&$($&^&^#^#&*$&$^$^^&%$$#$#!$#@#$@#$@$#@#@$#@@$#@$#$$#@#$$#@#@$@#@$##$#$#@$####$$%$# coDEX**%&^%&^%^*&^&^%*&&^*^&$#$#@##$@$#$##@###$#@$##$#@$#@$#@#$$##$@##$$#@#$#@#$##@#$$#@$##@#$##rULES PLUS RACE BOOKS(**^&*^*^%*&^*&^^&*&^*&^&^%&^%&%^&^*&^*&^*^&*^18RACES (^*&^&%*&*^#@$#$@$#@#$#@#$#$$#%$#$#DIE%^^%$^%$^%$%$^^^%$%%$^#%#@@$#@ and TAKE YOUR *&%^#$%$#%$%$%$$#%$$$#%$%$#%$%$#%%$#%#%$#%$%$#%$#$%YOU.

Trust me. As a person that sells miniatures games (and a player of non-Games Workshop games), I can tell you that you don't want Games Workshop to go away. Probably 3/4 of the people that buy the games that you like were led into the hobby by Games Workshop. They are the most common entry point into miniatures. They are big enough to promote the hobby and draw in new gamers in ways that no company like Mongoose could hope to do. Though other companies are starting grab an increasing share of the market, none of them really compare to GW in size and market penetration. I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the people on this forum have played GW games.

Now, here's the important part. Eventually, many of the people who started playing Games Workshop games get tired of them or start looking for something different. This is where most of the players for games like ACTA come from. Don't wish for GW to change its business pattern. Their current way of doing things generates a lot of business for other companies...

ShopKeepJon

 

[wkehrman]

For a different game, the fans have made customized markers similar to the GF9 markers for B5:ACTA, but in electronic format. I've printed out a set using cardstock. I put a laminating sheet over the top and some hobby foam on the bottom. They seem to be holding up well enough, though I'm having issues cutting out the round markers.

A similar arrangement for the V.2 counters (plus anything that might come along later) would work. Circular is a PITA, but it would give some consistency to the game play and go a BIT to the mitigation of having to switch over from minis to counters.

A little creativity on our part can solve the counter quality problem. What we need are counter images that look good and are well proofread, none of this Richelieu-class aircraft carrier stuff like we got with VaS.

BuSips has a good start with the Omega on page 29 of the ACTA, RIP thread--my issue was with mixing counters and minis, and still is. While I would like minis instead of counters, I would also like to nail Bester's head to the table, set it on fire, and feed his charred remains to the pak'ma'ra. But it is an imperfect world and we never get exactly what we want. It would seem then to think about what sort of counters would at least be tolerable in the hopes of influencing Mongoose's thoughts regarding format, size, etc.

Would it be possible, for example, to put some or all of the ship data on the counter? I can see where this might get messy, so this might not be the best idea.

Please note that, given the quality of the books we've seen recently, I'd probably not buy counters sold in the stores. Let me see to the quality of the materials on my own.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

Hi guys,

1. That is certainly the intention, yes. We will certainly do at least one book, and gauge its popularity from that.

2. Give us a short while on this one - however, I would say counters are something of an inevitability now. We are just working out how to present them, and what format they should take.

3. We have the text and the photos, but an actual book release seems a little redundant now. We'll get that information to you in one way or another though.
_________________
Matthew Sprange

Given the section that I highlighted above, I think that we need to quickly come up with a consensus about what we want in counters.

The things that I would like to see are:

• 1. Round counters. They're easier to use (especially for turning) and look better than the rectangular.
  
  2. I'd like big counters, about the size of the current ship models. This would look better on the table and would give a better feel for the differences between ships.
  
  3. I'd like to see small "pips" around the edge of the counter to indicate firing and turning arcs and another to indicate the center of the ship. (I don't want to see lines running across the ship. If the "pips" are provided, I don't think that they are necessary and they detract from the visual presentation of the ship.)
  
  4. I'd like the counters to be thick enough that thick fingered gamers can easily pick them up and manipulate them.
  
  5. I'd like them to be heavy enough that a light breeze won't change the tactical situation on the table...

Comments? Changes? Constructive criticism?

 

[wkehrman]

Hi guys,

1. That is certainly the intention, yes. We will certainly do at least one book, and gauge its popularity from that.

2. Give us a short while on this one - however, I would say counters are something of an inevitability now. We are just working out how to present them, and what format they should take.

3. We have the text and the photos, but an actual book release seems a little redundant now. We'll get that information to you in one way or another though.
_________________
Matthew Sprange

Given the section that I highlighted above, I think that we need to quickly come up with a consensus about what we want in counters.

The things that I would like to see are:

• 1. Round counters. They're easier to use (especially for turning) and look better than the rectangular.
  
  2. I'd like big counters, about the size of the current ship models. This would look better on the table and would give a better feel for the differences between ships.
  
  3. I'd like to see small "pips" around the edge of the counter to indicate firing and turning arcs and another to indicate the center of the ship. (I don't want to see lines running across the ship. If the "pips" are provided, I don't think that they are necessary and they detract from the visual presentation of the ship.)
  
  4. I'd like the counters to be thick enough that thick fingered gamers can easily pick them up and manipulate them.
  
  5. I'd like them to be heavy enough that a light breeze won't change the tactical situation on the table...

Comments? Changes? Constructive criticism?

Given the poor state of the paper products from MGP--the cardboard does not seem to be handling changes in humidity well so all of the MGP books in Colorado are buckling--I would advocate a PDF being available. Let me worry about materials quality.

What about lines running under the ship?

Some clear indicator of the Front is in order, especially with ships like the Vree saucers.

I know I spoke earlier about including lots of info on the counters, but I'm having second thoughts. A Patrol level ship might get a bit busy, especially on a 1" circle. If print were fine enough...

I'm also not envisioning ALL of a ships information going on the counter

A rectangle, while not my favorite idea, would give more space for information.

Counter size could reflect ship level: 6" for Armageddon, 5" for War, 4" for Battle, etc. This might also aid layout. You could carry the fleets in a 5x7" index card box.

If on a PDF, create an active cell for typing in ship names! Named ships last longer, right?

 

[Chernobyl]

A while back I had a go at making counters to scale. I started with the length given in the ACTA 1E fleetbook and scaled the pictures together. The Olympus came out really small. But I like that the Poseidon scaled up well. The Explorer was just silly large though. Playing with that ship to scale really strains the game mechanics. I think it came out at about a foot long to the Omega's 3 inches or so.

Anyway, I can try and ressurect that effort if people are interested, and make some nice counters so play with. But there have been lots of ships released that are not represented by counters, so picture help again would be nice.

Chern

 

[darklord4]

Given the poor state of the paper products from MGP--the cardboard does not seem to be handling changes in humidity well so all of the MGP books in Colorado are buckling--I would advocate a PDF being available. Let me worry about materials quality.

Yes, please let us do the actual printing. That way we can put them on our choice of cardstock, heavy board at a print shop, cardstock to be glued to a wooden base, or cardstock to be glued to the bottom of a clear acrylic disc 8). I can also reprint ones that get soda on them. Further, I would be scanning them in for this same purpose, so please save me a step.

Some clear indicator of the Front is in order, especially with ships like the Vree saucers.

You would need a front pip or mark on all ships to know how to turn them to arc.

I know I spoke earlier about including lots of info on the counters, but I'm having second thoughts. A Patrol level ship might get a bit busy, especially on a 1" circle. If print were fine enough...

I'm also not envisioning ALL of a ships information going on the counter

Basically, put enough turning marks and fire arcs to avoid having to lay a template down. For turning, front and turning pips, e.g. if a ship has 45 degree turns, there is a turn mark at the 45 degree facing of the round token. If it has 90 degree turns, there are turning marks at the 90 degree facings. You also have to have a front mark to know when to stop turning.
Weapon arcs for available weapons as well as a boresight mark if needed. For example, the bases I made for my Centauri with only front-arc weapons, have only the front arc marked out.
Basswood 5 Bases

Counter size could reflect ship level: 6" for Armageddon, 5" for War, 4" for Battle, etc. This might also aid layout. You could carry the fleets in a 5x7" index card box.

I am trying to imagine how the 6" circle fits into the 5*7 box...
I like the size idea, but I would suggest smaller sizes and/or similar groupings. For my Centauri model bases, I am using 30mm for both, Patrol and Skirmish ships, 45mm for Raid and Battle, and 60mm for War and Armageddon.

If on a PDF, create an active cell for typing in ship names! Named ships last longer, right?

Great idea! Let's not forget to use the technology that is available?

 

[BuShips]

I am trying to imagine how the 6" circle fits into the 5*7 box...

Why, a 5x7 box that is 6" high. :wink:

Seriously though, I know that Mongoose is thinking this over and will be letting us know what they have in mind. I have no doubt that we'll have counters.

 

[darklord4]

I am trying to imagine how the 6" circle fits into the 5*7 box...

Why, a 5x7 box that is 6" high. :wink:

Right, I forgot about carrying ALL fleets ALL the time

Seriously though, I know that Mongoose is thinking this over and will be letting us know what they have in mind. I have no doubt that we'll have counters.

I have no doubt either, but I don't want something just useable, I want something great that will carry the game onward and upward. Excelsior!

I'd also like to add that another plus to using a PDF format is updates. Say for example there is a change where a class of ship changes priority or gains a weapon arc, the PDF gets updated and people get the change. Also, if there is a left out ship or a misprinting, the changes can be updated online.

 

[Ripple]

I know it may not be terribly popular with some folks but I'd like to see the counters combine well with the remaining figures, thus the round counters with not too much information, but nice presentation of the ships.

I like the pip ideas to mark the for main arcs and a front and back pip for front and rear bore/facing marks (make the front one slightly different, say carrot instead of dot).

I'd rather not see the counters all colors, while very easy to see and distiguish sides, it detracts from the space vista thingie.

PDF would be okay, but would also like to see maybe real counters. Should be easy to do both right?

Ripple

 

[silashand]

I would be happy with either printed counters or PDF. However, if printed ones I would *really* prefer hard plastic ones like the stuff produced by Gale Force 9. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

 

[MustEatBrains]

Wouldn´t hard plastic make it harder to represent the ship itself, except for a white icon? Or do you mean as a base for a printed, coloured representation of the ship?

 

[ShopKeepJon]

I know it may not be terribly popular with some folks but I'd like to see the counters combine well with the remaining figures, thus the round counters with not too much information, but nice presentation of the ships.

I like the pip ideas to mark the for main arcs and a front and back pip for front and rear bore/facing marks (make the front one slightly different, say carrot instead of dot).

I'd rather not see the counters all colors, while very easy to see and distiguish sides, it detracts from the space vista thingie.

PDF would be okay, but would also like to see maybe real counters. Should be easy to do both right?

Ripple

I second all of this.

ShopKeepJon

 

[Chernobyl]

my concept. Sorry for the huge image size


Chern

 

[wkehrman]

Counter size could reflect ship level: 6" for Armageddon, 5" for War, 4" for Battle, etc. This might also aid layout. You could carry the fleets in a 5x7" index card box.

I am trying to imagine how the 6" circle fits into the 5*7 box...
I like the size idea, but I would suggest smaller sizes and/or similar groupings. For my Centauri model bases, I am using 30mm for both, Patrol and Skirmish ships, 45mm for Raid and Battle, and 60mm for War and Armageddon.

Because in the previous statement I had discussed rectangles, I had made the mental shift to rectangles without letting the normals out there know what I was doing. I was actually envisioning a very large rectangle that was 6" on one side and 2" or 3" on the other.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[BuShips]

Chern, nothing wrong with that. While some didn't want the lines I had shown, I was thinking they might allow for quick eyeball sights for ease of knowing which targets were in which arcs. Removing the lines looks a bit better visually but might require a straightedge placement to verify arcs more often.

My lines are a trade-off between a bit more ease of function and visual aesthetics. One thing about leaving them off and going with counter edge "pips" or "ticks", if someone wanted to add lines to the finished counters they could buy automotive detail vinyl pinstriping tape and add them I'd think.

 

[wkehrman]

Wouldn´t hard plastic make it harder to represent the ship itself, except for a white icon? Or do you mean as a base for a printed, coloured representation of the ship?

GF9 makes counters for FOW which are at least two color, As can be found here.

http://www.gf9.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=333

piece of hard plastic with the printing on one side, showing up through the plastic, and a black felt backing. I think silashand has a set, I know he's seen a set. This may be what he's talking about. I don't know if more than two colors can be used, or what upper limit exists on size.