Mongoose Alien Module 4 - Zhodani

[donm61873]

Okay, first of all let me repeat that I do regard this product as a good one, to put my later niggles in context. It was just not made with me in mind. Actually, some parts were made with me in mind, so here's some praise first: I really like the Addaxur. Finally, a proper treatment of these guys, and one that meets my expectations on how Traveller minor races should be described. Much better than the Spacemaster graft-on from GTAR1. I also liked the new starships, the new illustrations for some of the old starships, and I'll probably find some use for the sector description stuff. Writing and design are of good quality.

Glad you liked the Addaxur. I was not happy with how they were portrayed in GTAR1 either, and my first question to Marc regarding Zhodani was, "what were your thoughts originally about the Addaxur", and that ultimately led to an old piece of art.

That said, my disagreements (which as I said are a matter of taste and preferences):

1. The Consulate is given a more monolithic spin than in AM4. In MGTA4, all government in Zhodani space is a component of the overall consulate government and follows the same structure. In AM4, local governments could be as diverse as in the Imperium, and could include proles in the government structure as well. Which brings me to....

Which was deliberate, but if you look at the sector writeup, the worlds have many different government structures, and I tried to include examples of a wide variety of government forms (including the Zhodani version of a religious dictatorship). Are you meaning the provinces?

2. ... the more rigid caste system as opposed to to AM4. MGTA4 follows GTAR1 in this regard: Proles are a definite underclass who cannot achieve officer rank in the military and who are limited to the lower tiers of economically oriented careers as well. This was not the case in AM4 and it is apparently not matched by the character creation rules in MGTA4 either, though I'll freely admit I'm not too well versed in the MGT rules.
There are basically two models here:
a). The one tentatively alluded to in the first JTAS article on the Zhodani, which paints Proles as the equivalents of unfree peasants in a rigid caste system. GT followed and expanded on this model, and apparently so does MGT, although the character creation rules are ambiguous (to me.) The JTAS article, which was more of the sketch, was actually not that restrictive and in retrospective can be seen to support either model.
b). The one established in AM4 which makes it quite clear that Proles can advance in any career except government, although they need to be very lucky and competent to advance as military officiers. The social role of Proles more closely parallels that of commoners in many 17th or 18th century monarchies in this model.
I've always followed model b). GTAR1 strongly established model a), and MGTA4 seems to follow suit, although it remains slightly ambiguous, probably due to the attempt to reconcile conflicting previous materials.

My intention was to be somewhat ambiguous, as my thoughts were that in the 1105 snapshot, the Zhodani universe is starting to open up, but the race towards the Fifth Frontier War has also brought along a reaction which is pushing back to traditional forms. That squishy "let more Proles step up" smacks of a pro-Imperial attitude.

3. The inclusion and treatment of the Empress Wave. Then again, nothing short of excising the Virus and Empress Wave from the TU entirely is going to please me, and that's exactly what I'm going to do in any campaign I run.

Personally, I'm in agreement with you. My position on TNE events (and any OTU elements developed after Spring of 1990 by DGP/GDW) is well known. But they are canon, and I had to include them, given where the wave should be to hit the edge of the Marches in 1201. For OTU fans who accept the Empress Wave, I hope I connected the canon dots. For others, I'm sorry but the EW is officially part of the OTU.

4. The "hybrid" chirpers. Not buying the concept. Then again, I can just write it off as a crazy fringe theory or a rumor and simply use the explanation that the Qiknavra Chirpers were casteless droyne which did not "degenerate" as much as others (probably due to a large number of sports in the initial population or something like that.)

And in the OTU, plenty of Zhodani and other specialists would agree with you. Given that it is presented as a theory, you can accept or disregard it as you like. It doesn't really affect a campaign, unless you're faced with explaining how a semi-sentient creature that can't even develop a whole language forges two empires, and their military and battle history have an impact on the Zhodani down to modern times.

5. The portrayal of reeducation as some sort of punishment that you can try to avoid, can be "exonerated" from and that will apparently get you sent to an endurance-reducing gulag is something that does not rhyme with my impression of the Zhodani either. On the other hand, the random traits table includes several entries I have trouble seeing in well-adjusted Zhodani.

What you should pick up from both the portrayal of re-education and the Zhodani random traits is that they are really "normal humans". All that stuff that a noble Zhodani would like to portray the Imperium as is really there in the Consulate, just hidden away under the surface. As much as they would like to consider themselves a monolithic society, they are not.

I am glad you like the "new" Addaxur, and you appreciated the preservation of various canon elements from DGP (with permission from Roger Sanger) and FASA (permission from Marc Miller). And I do understand your view on the Empress Wave. You are NOT the only one who feels that way; one of my reviewers made a strong case for ignoring it. But it is canon, it is already having an impact on the Zhodani in 1105, and it is present even in the GT materials, if not mentioned. No real way to please you or them on that matter.

 

[donm61873]

Mongoose's Zhodani are too close to an "evil empire" for my taste.
They make nice enemies for player characters from the Imperium,
but are much less interesting as player characters themselves. In
my view the author has changed the feeling of the Zhodani society
from "different because of psionics" towards "totalitarian by use of
psionics", and the result is an interpretation of Zhodani society which
I think is rather different from the original one of Classic Traveller's
Zhodani module.

I think what you are perceiving is a change in the Zhodani themselves, or an attempt at one, in preparation for the upcoming war. There's a attempt at purification going on, as a response both to the recognized threat of the Imperium and the misunderstood threat of the Empress Wave. Now, in retrospect, it might have been useful to have ACTUALLY STATED that somewhere. I have it in my notes, I reviewed the various components of the book to make sure I was keeping that attitude in my writing, but I didn't actually mention it to the reader anywhere... :shock:

Hmm... might have something for Matthew in that. Rust and Tobias, might take me a little bit, but I'll PM you with some thoughts on this. However, it's got to wait until I can get the Droyne out of my head. In the mean time, I want to thank both of you for the useful criticisms. I may not agree with both of you on specifics, but I appreciate you putting your thoughts down about Zhodani.

 

[Tobias]

Which was deliberate, but if you look at the sector writeup, the worlds have many different government structures, and I tried to include examples of a wide variety of government forms (including the Zhodani version of a religious dictatorship). Are you meaning the provinces?

I'm referring here to the section on government and the one on worlds. The information in the government section is based on AM4, but I'm getting a slightly different vibe from it than my own interpretation.
In MGTA4 it appears that the council structure basically covers local government as well as the larger interstellar structures. I had always assumed that the council structure was something that ran parallel to local government structures, which could take all sorts of forms and might actually be interwoven with the the consular structure in creative ways. (For example in a participating democracy, nobles officially were the ones to vote for councils, but they always voted according to a plebiscite by all local citizens, including Proles.)
Also, the section reinforces the notion of Proles as an entirely subservient underclass. In AM4 it was simply stated that Intendants and Proles could lobby or persuade Consuls, while in MGTA4 this is heavily qualified and given a paternalistic spin.
I have to admit I only browsed through the sector description. I did notice a few deviations from the norm.

My intention was to be somewhat ambiguous, as my thoughts were that in the 1105 snapshot, the Zhodani universe is starting to open up, but the race towards the Fifth Frontier War has also brought along a reaction which is pushing back to traditional forms. That squishy "let more Proles step up" smacks of a pro-Imperial attitude.

Well, I like MTU Zhodani society to be less totalitarian on the one hand and more stable on the other hand. Keep in mind that AM4 was written from a post-FFW viewpoint and gives no indication of big changes (or any changes for that matter) in Zhodani society due to the war or the Empress Wave (the latter, of course, didn't exist at that point) so I never saw a reason to assume such changes.
I realize that in a game universe, a publisher will want to add developments to stir things up a little bit. Personally, I just think the Zhodani are unsuited for this kind of approach.

Personally, I'm in agreement with you. My position on TNE events (and any OTU elements developed after Spring of 1990 by DGP/GDW) is well known. But they are canon, and I had to include them, given where the wave should be to hit the edge of the Marches in 1201.

I'm not saying it's your fault. (I don't know whose fault it is? Marc's I guess?) :wink:

What you should pick up from both the portrayal of re-education and the Zhodani random traits is that they are really "normal humans".

Okay, now that I disagree with quite definitively. IMTU: Humans, yes. Normal, not a chance. The concept of keeping up a facade to keep things hidden under the surface is something that IMTU Zhodani are mentally incapable of because it is fundamentally dishonest. Likewise, nobles don't spread propaganda about how perfect Zhodani society is: They know it is true and there is - with very rare exceptions - no place for doubt about this in their minds. In effect, IMTU Zhodani are more alien than Vargr or Aslan.

But as I said, these are simply matters of preference and of interpreting the older canon. I don't think I can really support by interpretation any better than yours, especially seeing as how the earlier material is rather sketchy in many places. It's just a matter of taste.

Please bear in mind that when I earlier wrote it was not a worthwhile purchase for me, I was strictly speaking from my very restricted viewpoint. If I had to properly review the product, I would give it a thumbs up because for the Traveller player who a) does use the MGT system as written, b) does not have access to all the old OOP material and c) did not flesh out the Zhodani for their own TU in considerable detail over several years, this is a very useful product. It's just for me that only some parts are useful.

 

[donm61873]

Personally, I'm in agreement with you. My position on TNE events (and any OTU elements developed after Spring of 1990 by DGP/GDW) is well known. But they are canon, and I had to include them, given where the wave should be to hit the edge of the Marches in 1201.

I'm not saying it's your fault. (I don't know whose fault it is? Marc's I guess?) :wink:

Actually, the point where I lose interest is also the point where Marc leaves GDW in 1990.

What you should pick up from both the portrayal of re-education and the Zhodani random traits is that they are really "normal humans".

Okay, now that I disagree with quite definitively. IMTU: Humans, yes. Normal, not a chance. The concept of keeping up a facade to keep things hidden under the surface is something that IMTU Zhodani are mentally incapable of because it is fundamentally dishonest. Likewise, nobles don't spread propaganda about how perfect Zhodani society is: They know it is true and there is - with very rare exceptions - no place for doubt about this in their minds. In effect, IMTU Zhodani are more alien than Vargr or Aslan.

But as I said, these are simply matters of preference and of interpreting the older canon. I don't think I can really support by interpretation any better than yours, especially seeing as how the earlier material is rather sketchy in many places.

We're going to have to disagree here. I'm reminded of the ST original series episode where the Romulan commander is under the impression that Vulcans cannot or do not lie, and Spock both proves her wrong and explains why the assumption could not work.

At it's very core, Zhodani society is a lie. The psionic nobles knew it when they overthrew the structure in ancient times, but never came up with a way to deal with it. But faced with a non-psionic Imperium with capable leadership (Norris) and an unforgiving Empress Wave, that lie is the only game in town for the Zhodani nobility, so they have to go with it. IF the Consulate can defeat the Imperium and use the identified resources against the Empress Wave, they might have have a chance of keeping everything intact. Of course, we know from the canon TNE/1248 material that they fail to keep it intact, but they do succeed in preserving a lot.

I think the problem may be that you were looking for a generic Zhodani book to use in a variety of xTUs, and I wrote an 1105-specific book for the OTU which has to accommodate the existence of the events which will lead to the Rebellion and Virus, and that means the EW is already present, which forces a reinterpretation of events.

If you put yourself in the seat of a Qlomdlabr member after the 4th Frontier War, and knowing about the threat of the Fienzhatshtiavl, reaching out and using the Erdriap Chensh (both on Qrekrsha and on Rhylanor), you find yourself either looking for an exit, or mobilizing fleets.

If you remove the Fienzhatshtiavl (like you have), then none of that is necessary; in fact, you want peace with the Imperium, and you will be much more tolerant of uppity Proles. AM4 has that perspective because it has no Fienzhatshtiavl to reconcile.

But faced with the dilemna in the OTU, accepting the Vlastiansh starts to look good given your other options.

 

[rust]

At it's very core, Zhodani society is a lie.

I would rather see it as a very special kind of meritocracy, one
of history's many attempts to ensure that a society is ruled by
those best suited for ruling it.

Another example of this kind could be Imperial China. The an-
cient Chinese were convinced that their society should be ruled
by well educated scholars, so they abolished the hereditary no-
bility and developed their elaborate system of Imperial Examina-
tions and their many ranks of Mandarin scholar-bureaucrats.

The Zhodani probably considered the ability to use psionics as a
most useful talent for a ruler, and so their meritocracy which re-
placed their hereditary nobility is based upon psionic talent. As
long as the majority of the population shares the conviction that
testing for psionic talent is the best way to choose the ruling eli-
te, this way to run a society is hardly "a lie".

 

[donm61873]

At it's very core, Zhodani society is a lie.

I would rather see it as a very special kind of meritocracy, one
of history's many attempts to ensure that a society is ruled by
those best suited for ruling it.

Another example of this kind could be Imperial China. The an-
cient Chinese were convinced that their society should be ruled
by well educated scholars, so they abolished the hereditary no-
bility and developed their elaborate system of Imperial Examina-
tions and their many ranks of Mandarin scholar-bureaucrats.

The Zhodani probably considered the ability to use psionics as a
most useful talent for a ruler, and so their meritocracy which re-
placed their hereditary nobility is based upon psionic talent. As
long as the majority of the population shares the conviction that
testing for psionic talent is the best way to choose the ruling eli-
te, this way to run a society is hardly "a lie".

But it is, because there are two hard facts they have to concede:

1. Many noble kids have no psionic talent, but they go ahead and train that kid anyway, just because he's noble. And because we need more nobles to send out to keep a handle on what's happening, one of those untalented kids is likely to be in the wrong place at the worst time, and in charge.

2. Many prole kids will have great ideas that could contribute to Zhodani society, but since they have no talent, their ideas are very likely to never reach someone who could implement them. And because those kids will grow frustrated over their ideas being ignored, they are a priority for re-education.

Zhodani society isn't perfect, and it certainly was no meritocracy. You have to understand: Psionics was simply a way to limit who could become a noble in the future. It didn't change who was already a noble, or that their kids (talented or untalented) would become nobles. It was an attempt to lock down class mobility, and it worked for a long time. Unfortuately, because of the Empress Wave and the internal stresses, the Consulate is finally out of time.

 

[Tobias]

Actually, the point where I lose interest is also the point where Marc leaves GDW in 1990.

Well, what I half-jokingly meant is that as soon as Marc got back control of the chur... I mean the intellectual property, he should have made the TNE material apocryphal. A Bonfire should also have been involved maybe.

We're going to have to disagree here.

Yup.

At it's very core, Zhodani society is a lie.

Not in my view, at least no more than you could call every other society a "lie". I'd say we simply have different approaches to this.

I think the problem may be that you were looking for a generic Zhodani book to use in a variety of xTUs, and I wrote an 1105-specific book for the OTU which has to accommodate the existence of the events which will lead to the Rebellion and Virus, and that means the EW is already present, which forces a reinterpretation of events.

The former, not so much. I like the pre-Rebellion OTU. The latter, naturally.

If you put yourself in the seat of a Qlomdlabr member after the 4th Frontier war, and knowing about the threat of the Fienzhatshtiavl, reaching out and using the Erdriap Chensh (both on Qrekrsha and on Rhylanor), you find yourself either looking for an exit, or mobilizing fleets.

You just keep reminding me of more elements I don't like.
I did not like the original TNE plot devices and the assumptions behind them. I do not like the new plot devices spawned by these original ones either. To me, every attempt to flesh out or expand on concepts like Virus or the Empress Wave is a painful reminder of how stupid and ill-fitted to my vision of the TU these concepts are. All IMO.

 

[GypsyComet]

Warning: near aimless meanderings ahead.

The Zhodani probably considered the ability to use psionics as a
most useful talent for a ruler, and so their meritocracy which re-
placed their hereditary nobility is based upon psionic talent. As
long as the majority of the population shares the conviction that
testing for psionic talent is the best way to choose the ruling eli-
te, this way to run a society is hardly "a lie".

I think part of the "lie" can be seen by comparing, in a limited way, the Zhodani adherence to honesty to the feudal Japanese adherence to Honor. While often honored only in the breach, as it were, the honor of the Samurai was still considered proverbial and beyond question by those below them and was used against them by those above them. Similarly, the honesty of the Zhodani is proverbial to the point of social stereotyping, and the honesty of each level of society is taken for granted by the other social levels. Just as on Earth, there will be ideologues who cannot see the reality before them, but the knowledge that the model is broken because people aren't perfect and cannot be perfect on a large scale will be common amongst the nobility and especially the Intendants. It will be rarer amongst the Proles, if only because realizing it is likely to cause the kind of mental turmoil that is easily picked up by the Tavr'chedl.

The social functions that require a certain amount of personal dishonesty and exposure to it in others will probably come to grips with it much more easily. As such the merchant classes, and specifically the interstellar traders and their support network of brokers and direct clients, are far more likely to be thriving liars in a society of truth. If for no other reason than they are in the business of personal ambition, a trait that is strongly undersold in Zhodani society in favor of generational ambition.

The problem here, of course, is that a society this size *must* be driven by personal ambition, if only towards happiness, because the big happy hive mind is simply impossible at this scale. A psychologically dependent underclass is a LOT of work to maintain even in homogenous isolation (see THX 1138). Add in the individual needs of each world, city, or even family (because Proles are still capitalists, not Socialist cogs) and the isolation and homogeneity vanish quickly. Different draws on available resources result and lead to conflict, and the great happy hive mind becomes a dream that never happened.

But the Nobility can pretend it did, and is still going strong. Whether the Nobility of the Zhodani are genuinely concerned for the Proles in their charge or are simply control freaks is a matter for the individual Referee to decide, but probably varies quite a bit within the nobility regardless. Just as the great happy hive mind of Proles is impossible to maintain, so is a great evil hive mind of nobles. Even in the worst cases, *someone* would eventually grow some scruples.

In the middle of it all are the hapless Intendants, safe in the knowledge that they do all the real work around here, may eventually retire to the Nobility, and are really what holds it all together. Beware the overconfident Intendant, but beware the accomplished liar more...

So what is the Big Lie in Zhodani society? It works, sort of. It keeps large numbers of people busy, happy (for real), and productive, while protecting them from the howling wilderness beyond the border. Those who are found to be unhappy are adjusted, in attitude or situation. The howling wilderness is indeed kept at bay (well, except for the part that really is howling through the minds of the Nobles), and important things are getting done.

The lie is that the ideals to which the Zhodani subscribe are attainable, have ever been attainable, and would actually work as intended once attained. Pretty much like any other branch of Humaniti.

 

[Tobias]

1. Many noble kids have no psionic talent, but they go ahead and train that kid anyway, just because he's noble. And because we need more nobles to send out to keep a handle on what's happening, one of those untalented kids is likely to be in the wrong place at the worst time, and in charge.

Is it actually possible in MGT to have no psionic talent at all? It wasn't in CT.
But, yeah, it's not a psionics-based meritocracy. At least mostly not. But then again, neither is the Imperium.
As I've written in previous discussions on CotI: On an interstellar level, there are no democracies in Traveller. The Zhodani government is actually among the more pluralistic.
The Imperium, for example, is a hereditary monarchy. Fundamentally, it is the least meritocratic form of government imaginable.

 

[donm61873]

I did not like the original TNE plot devices and the assumptions behind them. I do not like the new plot devices spawned by these original ones either. To me, every attempt to flesh out or expand on concepts like Virus or the Empress Wave is a painful reminder of how stupid and ill-fitted to my vision of the TU these concepts are. All IMO.

And in your own TU, you can ignore them. Canon is for writers and developers, cannon is for referees and players.

And I will agree with you in considering that in such a TU (no EW), Zhodani society would not undergo a reactionary period, but be more open. Perhaps not quite the meritocracy that Rust envisions, but certainly more open to petitions from Proles, etc. In fact, I would think that in such circumstances, Batlpat (1326 Ziafrplians) is probably Forbidden rather than Unabsorbed, despite the economic impact, and perhaps Sheklzdibr (0809) might have more of an role on the subsector and provincial council decisions than otherwise.

Just a quick thought on that development, if you decide to use the Ziafrplians material for your TU.

 

[alex_greene]

The lie is that the ideals to which the Zhodani subscribe are attainable, have ever been attainable, and would actually work as intended once attained. Pretty much like any other branch of Humaniti.

"I am fearful when I see people substituting fear for reason."

"The universe grows smaller every day, and the threat of aggression by any group, anywhere, can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure.

"Now, this does not mean giving up any freedom except the freedom to act irresponsibly. [Our] ancestors knew this when [we] made laws to govern themselves and hired policemen to enforce them. We of the [Zhodantia Driantia] have long accepted this principle.

"We have an organization for the mutual protection of all planets and for the complete elimination of aggression. The test of any such higher authority is, of course, the police force that supports it. For our policemen, we created [the Tvarchedle']. Their function is to patrol the planets—in space ships like this one—and preserve the peace. In matters of aggression, we have given them absolute power over us; this power can not be revoked. At the first sign of violence, they act automatically against the aggressor. The penalty for provoking their action is too terrible to risk.

"The result is that we live in peace, without arms or armies, secure in the knowledge that we are free from aggression and war—free to pursue more profitable enterprises. Now, we do not pretend to have achieved perfection, but we do have a system, and it works."

-- paraphrasing Klaatu, The Day The Earth Stood Still.

Perhaps "close enough" has to be good enough, in the case of the Zhodani. If they had an ideal system, there'd be no need for the Tavrchedle' at all, any more than there'd be a need for doctors if humans could live forever. But humans die, and so also just as they need doctors, so too they need their Thought Police.

They might never attain perfection everywhere. As long as they can achieve harmony, here.

 

[donm61873]

Is it actually possible in MGT to have no psionic talent at all? It wasn't in CT.
But, yeah, it's not a psionics-based meritocracy. At least mostly not. But then again, neither is the Imperium.
As I've written in previous discussions on CotI: On an interstellar level, there are no democracies in Traveller. The Zhodani government is actually among the more pluralistic.
The Imperium, for example, is a hereditary monarchy. Fundamentally, it is the least meritocratic form of government imaginable.

Well, I didn't write about the Imperium

But it is possible to have low psionic talented Zhodani nobles in CT. AM4 says roll 2D for all characteristics. So I can start AM4 chargen with a Soc of 12 and a Psi of 2, and the same happens in Mongoose Traveller. I didn't make any changes there.

 

[Tobias]

Different draws on available resources result and lead to conflict, and the great happy hive mind becomes a dream that never happened.

See, this is where the disagreement lies. Zhodani society is not a "great happy hive mind". It is society made up of individuals, not unsimilar to Imperial society, only that people generally don't lie, don't steal, don't rebel, don't commit crimes or exhibit antisocial behaviour and generally are more empathic towards others. It is alien, of course.

IMTU Zhodani of all social standings do have lots personal ambition (that is btw specifically emphasized in canon) and can achieve all of it except in the era of Consular politics, which is limited to nobles. IMTU Proles are not psychologically dependent drones, but people with their own minds.

Ultimately, the view of Zhodani society you (and Don, I guess) have seems to rest on a certain concept of "human nature" which I quite evidently don't share. In fact, I consider the notion of "human nature" to be a rather dubious one. But that's just my opinion. I do realize that this particular fictional treatment of Zhodani society is a popular one in literature and other media: A seemingly harmonious society is revealed to be terribly flawed, showing something about human nature. I am quite aware of this trope, I just don't really appreciate it. :wink:

 

[donm61873]

Perhaps "close enough" has to be good enough, in the case of the Zhodani. If they had an ideal system, there'd be no need for the Tavrchedle' at all, any more than there'd be a need for doctors if humans could live forever. But humans die, and so also just as they need doctors, so too they need their Thought Police.

They might never attain perfection everywhere. As long as they can achieve harmony, here.

Ok, but you have a Solomani century before your world is ripped apart by the Chilling Thought. I'll fully agree with everyone that this is NOT the setting of AM4. AM4 did not have a Qlomdlabr fully aware that the clock was ticking on its own survival. I can accept that some people do NOT like that change, but I didn't have a choice to make there...

 

[donm61873]

Ultimately, the view of Zhodani society you (and Don, I guess) have seems to rest on a certain concept of "human nature" which I quite evidently don't share. In fact, I consider the notion of "human nature" to be a rather dubious one. But that's just my opinion. I do realize that this particular fictional treatment of Zhodani society is a popular one in literature and other media: A seemingly harmonious society is revealed to be terribly flawed, showing something about human nature. I am quite aware of this trope, I just don't really appreciate it. :wink:

Now that I can completely agree with. However, in addition to the EW and other elements you don't like, canon also tells me the Consulate will shatter and then rebuild around three separate cores. The "trope", as it were, was the most obvious path to take. I would like to think that at least one of those three cores would strive to reach what you want from a Zhodani society.

 

[alex_greene]

Ok, but you have a Solomani century before your world is ripped apart by the Chilling Thought. I'll fully agree with everyone that this is NOT the setting of AM4. AM4 did not have a Qlomdlabr fully aware that the clock was ticking on its own survival. I can accept that some people do NOT like that change, but I didn't have a choice to make there...

This all could even tie in with Secrets of The Ancients. The player characters who survived SOTA could discover Yonder Chilling Thought coming towards them and put together the clues to come up with a solution of some sort.

Alternatively, the Zhodani could impress upon the Imperials that when the Empress Wave hits the Imperium, the result would be Rebellion and Hard Times - only delayed from the TNE version by a good Solomani century.

The future of the 3I is what is likely to happen if the player characters do not intervene. They could become a crucial element of a whole campaign arc, and worlds could fall - or rise - depending on what they do, or refuse to do.

Even if they can't prevent the Consulate and 3I from degenerating into chaos and darkness, their role might be like those of Asimov's Foundation: to ensure the Second Long Night only lasts, say, one thousand years, rather than twenty thousand.

 

[Tobias]

Now that I can completely agree with. However, in addition to the EW and other elements you don't like, canon also tells me the Consulate will shatter and then rebuild around three separate cores.

By the way, is 1248 officially canon? I do have it, and I am quite happy with its treatment of the Zhodani (and others), considering what it had to work from. Getting totally devastated and rebuilding some of the old society on a much more modest scale is what happened to basically everybody in that setting anyway.

But realistically, I'm just happy with a stable setting around 1100 without any universe-shattering metaplot events (I don't see the FFW as one.) The Rebellion could have been okay if it had played out in a more sensible "2nd civil war" fashion, and in a new campaign maybe I'd just use that. I'd rather avoid the bleakness of the Black War and the weird plot device gadgets of TNE altogether.

 

[donm61873]

Now that I can completely agree with. However, in addition to the EW and other elements you don't like, canon also tells me the Consulate will shatter and then rebuild around three separate cores.

By the way, is 1248 officially canon? I do have it, and I am quite happy with its treatment of the Zhodani (and others), considering what it had to work from. Getting totally devastated and rebuilding some of the old society on a much more modest scale is what happened to basically everybody in that setting anyway.

But realistically, I'm just happy with a stable setting around 1100 without any universe-shattering metaplot events (I don't see the FFW as one.) The Rebellion could have been okay if it had played out in a more sensible "2nd civil war" fashion, and in a new campaign maybe I'd just use that. I'd rather avoid the bleakness of the Black War and the weird plot device gadgets of TNE altogether.

Yes, 1248 is canon.

Let me qualify this: Since it was produced by a Traveller licensee for the OTU, why would it NOT be canon?

 

[alex_greene]

But realistically, I'm just happy with a stable setting around 1100 without any universe-shattering metaplot events (I don't see the FFW as one.) The Rebellion could have been okay if it had played out in a more sensible "2nd civil war" fashion, and in a new campaign maybe I'd just use that. I'd rather avoid the bleakness of the Black War and the weird plot device gadgets of TNE altogether.

Hear hear.

Mongoose don't necessarily have to bring their version of the 3I to an end at all. The FFW seems pretty much fixed in stone; but again, perhaps the player characters' intervention (played out in the course of the campaign) turns out instrumental in bringing the FFW to an end in 1107 instead of carrying on until 1130 or something.

Or the 1105 - 1107 time frame of the FFW is what happens if they don't intervene, either to make it longer or to prevent it happening at all - for instance partaking in SOTA and coming up with a technology that somehow protects minds against the Empress Wave, on a planetary scale, or something.

Just because it's Traveller it doesn't have to mean that the stories can't go overboard, leading to a climax where key elements of Imperial and Zhodani society are preserved in a pocket universe using reverse engineered tech inspired by Yaskoydray, while a Tripwire - inspired force field along the entire Coreward border deflects the Empress Wave from Charted Space, Vargr and Zhodani and Imperial space alike, fuelled by controlled Darrian Star Trigger eruptions spilling their energies into collectors rather than boiling planets.

"And so Humaniti crossed he line to a technological level hitherto unseen since the time of the Ancients," yadda yadda bring on Olaf Stapledon.

 

[rust]

The lie is that the ideals to which the Zhodani subscribe are attainable, have ever been attainable, and would actually work as intended once attained.

The same is true for each and every historical and present
human society, which would make all those societies "lies".