Mongoose Alien Module 4 - Zhodani

[GypsyComet]

That could be tricky. One never knows exactly how many Droyne are around.

 

[Hans Rancke]

That could be tricky. One never knows exactly how many Droyne are around.

Six.

Hans

 

[Tobias]

I find it hard to imagine the canonical envy and fear and loathing of the unknown that played a part in the Psionic Suppressions if everyone either has useful psionic talent himself or at least several close relatives with it.

I don't follow that reasoning. The obvious parallel (to me) for the Psionic Suppressions is a witch hunt. Witches were persecuted because they practiced dark arts, not because they were born witches. Psionics, to me, was always forbidden knowledge, not an X-men style genetic condition.
So I don't see any reason to change that from CT/MT canon, which would in any case result in serious repercussions for the Zhodani and others.

It's certainly not anywhere close to a true meritocracy, but it's not completely without meritocratic elements, especially in theory. High nobles are supposed to work for a living and the Emperor has the right to pass over an heir who isn't up to the task.

These are common elements of aristocratic systems. Still high political office is determined primarily by birth - suitability being a distant second.
Of course the system has meritocratic elements - like all others - but these are arguably the weakest among all interstellar states in the TU with the exception of the Two Thousand Worlds.

If you believe that character generation reflects "reality" realistically (which, I admit, I don't), you don't even get much mileage out of high social rank. You get a bonus to some throws, but the bonus applies to everyone from the gentry and up, and being a duke gives no more advantage than being a country squire. (IMO it should be MUCH easier to advance in ranks for Imperial nobles than indicated; when I roll up an NPC who is an Imperial noble, he gets posted as attache every time the rules allow it and usually hits rank O10 somewhere in his mid-thirties and he gets thrown out only on a throw of 2 (usually as a result of the machinations of some enemy Imperial noble with even more clout than himself).

I don't know about that. There are a lot of Imperial nobles. They can't all be admirals. In early modern militaries, nobles were found at all levels of the officer corps and that's the model I'm following.

 

[rust]

I also see the witchcraft parallel. The belief was that everyone
had the ability to practice witchcraft, and the percecution was
only directed against those who were believed to actually do it.

As for nobles and their advancement, in the early modern Ger-
man army the majority of officers were of noble birth, and a
competent noble who was not of royal or princely blood could
expect to retire as a colonel, there was too much competition
for the few higher ranks to seriously expect to be promoted any
further.

 

[Tobias]

I'm sorry to lose the Zhodani purpose for launching the frontier wars that was revealed in MT: They simply wanted to keep the Imperials out of their back yard. And I don't like having Ancient artifacts play such a huge role in interstellar events. But then, I disliked the original precognitive artifact intensely, although that had more to do with my dislike of causality violations (except in time travel stories, that is). If anything would have pleased me, it would have been some retcon that eliminated the precogntion part of it.

I agree with everything in this paragraph.

But at least it's a purposeful retcon, not just an author writing something without checking previously published material on his subject. As such, I see it as "the law of the land", and if I don't like it, I can just refrain from using the Zhodani.

Welp, I'm just going to ignore all the post-MT canon instead*. In my view, the TNE background elements are basically Traveller's midichlorians. I respect the effort to try and cobble together a halfway coherent backstory from these elements, but IMO it is a futile endeavor. Virus and the Empress Wave never made the least bit of sense to me - neither from a story perspective nor as narrative tools. Trying to reconcile them with a plausible background is only going to open new cans of worms.
In addition, they ran contrary to what I consider the right "feel" for Traveller. The precognition aspects of the map projector had already over-fulfilled the quota of weird stuff. I didn't need more.

*At my leisure. As I said, I'm still going to incorporate the elements I do like.

 

[Hans Rancke]

I find it hard to imagine the canonical envy and fear and loathing of the unknown that played a part in the Psionic Suppressions if everyone either has useful psionic talent himself or at least several close relatives with it.

I don't follow that reasoning. The obvious parallel (to me) for the Psionic Suppressions is a witch hunt. Witches were persecuted because they practiced dark arts, not because they were born witches.

No, they were persecuted because people thought they were practicing dark arts and those who persecuted them couldn't do it. I can see the parallel, but it fails when the witchcraft is an art that more than half the population can reliably learn to practice.

Psionics, to me, was always forbidden knowledge, not an X-men style genetic condition.
So I don't see any reason to change that from CT/MT canon, which would in any case result in serious repercussions for the Zhodani and others.

Psionics wasn't always secret knowledge, and IMO it wouldn't be secret knowledge unless the practitioners were few and unknown to most of the population.

I don't know about that. There are a lot of Imperial nobles. They can't all be admirals.

That would depend on how many admirals were needed, but that's not the point. The point is the other way around, that they can make sure the admirals are (almost) all nobles. With the canonical system, a county squire is just as likely to get promoted as an Imperial duke. (He may get ennobled himself along the way, but ask any of the Old Nobility how much they like that :wink: ).

In early modern militaries, nobles were found at all levels of the officer corps and that's the model I'm following.

Of course they were found at all levels of the officer corps. You started at the lowest rank and were promoted. The point is that very few non-nobles were found at the higher levels of the officer corps. During war, competent non-nobles could get rewarded for success by being ennobled, and that's fair enough. But in peace-time, the aristocrats were generally promoted over commoners every time, and even in war-time, nobles were promoted over equally conpetent commoners. You had to run twice as hard to get half the distance when you were not a noble. The fact that some commoners were able to run four times as fast doesn't alter the general trend.


Hans

 

[Tobias]

No, they were persecuted because people thought they were practicing dark arts and those who persecuted them couldn't do it.

Of course they didn't practice witchcraft for real. But that was not important to those who persecuted them.

I can see the parallel, but it fails when the witchcraft is an art that more than half the population can reliably learn to practice.

Hm? Anybody could "reliably learn" to practice it (or so the thought was) by making a pact with the Devil. It was just evil and blasphemous to do so.

Psionics wasn't always secret knowledge, and IMO it wouldn't be secret knowledge unless the practitioners were few and unknown to most of the population.

The emphasis was on "knowledge". Learning to use psionics is the transgression, not having potential. I don't see Imperial authorities searching for high-potential talents to pre-emptively lobotomize them or something like that.

The point is the other way around, that they can make sure the admirals are (almost) all nobles.

Well, that's pretty much a given, but in your example it kinda sounded as if every noble in the navy was guaranteed a promotion to admiral before the age rolls set in. I don't see it that way.

With the canonical system, a county squire is just as likely to get promoted as an Imperial duke.

Well, either you have a situation where the fundamental class distinction between nobles and non-nobles plays a much greater role than the different noble titles. Or you have a character creation system that did not want to list three different DMs for Social Standing. Or both. :wink:

Of course they were found at all levels of the officer corps. You started at the lowest rank and were promoted.

Sure, but the end point was not usually "General". A noble prussian officer would, as rust mentioned, make it to colonel if he was good. For many, retiring as a Charaktermajor was as far as they went on the ladder.

You had to run twice as hard to get half the distance when you were not a noble. The fact that some commoners were able to run four times as fast doesn't alter the general trend.

Absolutely. That's the way I see it as well, for the Imperium as well as for the Zhodani Consulate.

 

[Hans Rancke]

Of course they didn't practice witchcraft for real. But that was not important to those who persecuted them.

But psionics is real and not tied to making pacts with the devil.

I can see the parallel, but it fails when the witchcraft is an art that more than half the population can reliably learn to practice.

Hm? Anybody could "reliably learn" to practice it (or so the thought was) by making a pact with the Devil. It was just evil and blasphemous to do so.

I think I spot the misunderstanding we seem to be having. I'm not talking about the Classic Era after three centuries of suppression. I'm talking about a society that has evolved after reliable psionic training has been available for a couple of generations and a LOT of people have learned it. The second part is, of course, the sticking point. You may not believe that if psionic training is as reliable as portrayed in the rules and more than half the population could learn it to a level where they can get some use, even if only minor, out of it, enough people would learn it to take the mystery out of it. I do.

The point is the other way around, that they can make sure the admirals are (almost) all nobles.

Well, that's pretty much a given, but in your example it kinda sounded as if every noble in the navy was guaranteed a promotion to admiral before the age rolls set in. I don't see it that way.

Every Imperial noble? If he wasn't a total incompetent, he'd pretty much be. If he was of high enough rank, mere incompetence alone wouldn't be allowed to stand in his way, he'd need some spectacular screwups to slow him down.

With the canonical system, a county squire is just as likely to get promoted as an Imperial duke.

Well, either you have a situation where the fundamental class distinction between nobles and non-nobles plays a much greater role than the different noble titles.

I se that I've failed to convey my point. Imperial nobles are rare. A lot rarer than the 1 in 36 the character generation system implies. Something along the lines of one in a billion for actual titles is a good guess. Yes, that is a billion, a one with nine zeroes after. Merely being a close relative of an Imperial noble might make it one in 100 million. Social level 9, which is where the bonus to get commissioned in the navy kicks in (SL doesn't even give a bonus to promotion, I see now that I've checked) would be a lot more common. 1 in 100 perhaps, or even less. They're not even on the right side of the distinction between local nobles and non-nobles, much less Imperial nobles and mere local nobles.

Or you have a character creation system that did not want to list three different DMs for Social Standing. Or both. :wink:

My point exactly.

Of course they were found at all levels of the officer corps. You started at the lowest rank and were promoted.

Sure, but the end point was not usually "General".

It was for royalty. An Imperial noble, even a mere baron, would IMO have prestige about equal to a historical emperor. A marquis is, again IMO, the social equal of a world ruler. An Imperial baron would be graciously condescending to hob-nob with the equivalent of the major national leaders of Earth today. Though he might see the British royals as near peers. The thousand year pedigree of the Danish royals might even impress him a little.


Hans

 

[rust]

You could try to "retro-engineer" the problem. Since a general is the
equivalent of a division commander with 10,000 to 15,000 subordi-
nates, you could divide the number of Imperial military personnel by
10,000 to get the approximate maximum number of general rank of-
ficers in the Imperial forces.

I suspect it will be significantly lower than any plausible number of
Imperial nobles in Imperial military service, leading to the conclu-
sion that even an Imperial noble is not guaranteed a promotion to a
flag rank.

 

[Hans Rancke]

You could try to "retro-engineer" the problem. Since a general is the equivalent of a division commander with 10,000 to 15,000 subordinates, you could divide the number of Imperial military personnel by 10,000 to get the approximate maximum number of general rank of-
ficers in the Imperial forces.

The problem with that is that we don't have any reliable figures for the size of the Imperial military. There are some guesstimates based on the scanty evidence we do have. I myself get 90 million for the Imperial Navy (300 fleets of an average of 300,000), but I had to make a number of assumptions that I'm sure a lot of people will challenge. You should be able to make similar estimates about the Imperial Army and the Imperial Marines from the information in GT:Ground Forces, but I haven't done it myself.

I suspect it will be significantly lower than any plausible number of Imperial nobles in Imperial military service, leading to the conclusion that even an Imperial noble is not guaranteed a promotion to a flag rank.

I suspect you're wrong, certainly if you're talking about people holding actual Imperial titles; if you count close relatives, you might be right. It would depend a lot on how many hereditary nobles were idle drones. 1st generation rank nobles are commoners (or lesser nobles) who get elevated to qualify them for a position, 1st generation honor nobles get rewarded for achievenments, and high nobles have jobs they're expected to do (though doing them would preclude them from entering the military services). But subsequent generations can either step up and enter some sort of Imperial service (not just the military but also the Imperial Bureaucracy) or lean back and enjoy themselves. How many do what could make a lot of difference. The size of the Imperial Bureaucracy, about which we know even less than about the military, would likewise make a big difference, as it would drain off potential recruits for the military services.

But it's the lesser of my two points, anyway. An Imperial baron might not be guaranteed a admiralcy, but he would still (IMO) be fast-tracked to whatever position IS available to him. It might me as a mere commodore, but he'd get there way ahead of his commoner academy classmates.


Hans

 

[Tobias]

I think I spot the misunderstanding we seem to be having. I'm not talking about the Classic Era after three centuries of suppression. I'm talking about a society that has evolved after reliable psionic training has been available for a couple of generations and a LOT of people have learned it.

Well, canonically, psionics was severely underdeveloped until the 7th century of the Imperium, when it became more popular and more thoroughly researched. So, basically, psionics never really got off the ground in the Imperium. (Also keeping in mind that in Traveller, developments happen in slow motion.)

Every Imperial noble? If he wasn't a total incompetent, he'd pretty much be.

Well, I don't think so. There are likely to be tens of thousands of nobles at the very least, not counting knights. Most of them, if they seek a military career, will join the navy. And while the Imperial Navy is big, it certainly doesn't need that many admirals. If you have every single Imperial fleet and every single reserve fleet commanded by a noble admiral, you're at about 650. Sure, add to that a considerable number of admirals in the administration, but you're not going to arrive at a different order of magnitude.

I se that I've failed to convey my point. Imperial nobles are rare. A lot rarer than the 1 in 36 the character generation system implies. Something along the lines of one in a billion for actual titles is a good guess. Yes, that is a billion, a one with nine zeroes after.

The Imperium should have a total population of ~20 trillion people, so you'd end up with 20,000 nobles. I think that's too low, but it depends on who you count. If you count the immediate family members of nobles, you're sure to end up with a higher number.

An Imperial noble, even a mere baron, would IMO have prestige about equal to a historical emperor.

Not in the context of the Imperium as a whole, and thus not in the context of the Imperial Navy. As for the prestige compared to local leaders, it depends on how you view the relationship of the Imperium as an interstellar government and its member worlds in your campaign.

 

[Tobias]

You could try to "retro-engineer" the problem. Since a general is the
equivalent of a division commander with 10,000 to 15,000 subordi-
nates, you could divide the number of Imperial military personnel by
10,000 to get the approximate maximum number of general rank of-
ficers in the Imperial forces.

I suspect it will be significantly lower than any plausible number of
Imperial nobles in Imperial military service, leading to the conclu-
sion that even an Imperial noble is not guaranteed a promotion to a
flag rank.

The problem is that, as Hans pointed out, we do not have reliable figures on the size of the Imperial Army. In fact, as far as I can tell Canon is fairly fuzzy about whether there even is an Imperial Army as such or just an umbrella organization for various locally raised units. We do have a considerable better grasp on the size of the Imperial Navy, which is one reason why I used it as a yardstick. The other reason is that I see the Imperial Navy as the more prestigious service and thus a lot more likely to attract nobles. (I am somewhat reluctant to rely on the character generation tables, especially if it's just the tables and not the text accompanying them, but both in the Navy and in the Marines, you benefit from high Soc, while in the Army you don't.)

 

[Hans Rancke]

Well, canonically, psionics was severely underdeveloped until the 7th century of the Imperium, when it became more popular and more thoroughly researched.

Well, that's sort of the basis of my argument. If psionics are restricted to a tiny minority, it might remain an underfunded branch (though I really doubt it; it's just too potentially useful for military minds not to pour money into developing it if actually works; it might remain a secret from the general population, though). But if it's something a lot of people can use, it wouldn't remain severely undeveloped.

However, even if we stick to canonical history up to the 7th Century, my argument still stands. I said 'several generations'. From the 7th Century to Year 800 are several generations.

So, basically, psionics never really got off the ground in the Imperium.

Exactly. I posit that assuming psionic potential was as widespread as the rules imply, it would have gotten off the ground in the Imperium; since it didn't, I submit that psionic potential isn't nearly as widespread as the rules imply.

Well, I don't think so. There are likely to be tens of thousands of nobles at the very least, not counting knights.

Why is that likely?

Most of them, if they seek a military career, will join the navy.

But how many of them will seek a military career? See my reply to rust.

And while the Imperial Navy is big, it certainly doesn't need that many admirals.

I got my esitmate of the size of the Imperial Navy by estimating the crew needed to crew 20,000 combat vessels plus a bit over for the auxiliaries. I then added 3 men on the ground for every crew position, something rooted in real life figures. I then compared it to the number of admirals in the US Navy compared to it's size, which should give at least a ballpark figure (It's been suggested that the US Navy is over-officered, but it's the only navy I have reliable figures for).

If you have every single Imperial fleet and every single reserve fleet commanded by a noble admiral, you're at about 650. Sure, add to that a considerable number of admirals in the administration, but you're not going to arrive at a different order of magnitude.

Fleet admirals would be the equivalent of US Navy five-star admirals. The US Navy has 11 five star admirals and I can't remember how many one-, two-, three-, and four-star ones, but I have the figure somewhere. IRRC it amounted to around 120 in all. A single Imperial fleet is of comparable size. The Imperium has 300+ of those.

The Imperium should have a total population of ~20 trillion people, so you'd end up with 20,000 nobles. I think that's too low, but it depends on who you count. If you count the immediate family members of nobles, you're sure to end up with a higher number.

The Imperium canonically has a population of 15 trillion. I counted 15,000 titled nobles and nine times as many close relatives.

An Imperial noble, even a mere baron, would IMO have prestige about equal to a historical emperor.

Not in the context of the Imperium as a whole

Why not? You have one high marquis per major world; it seems reasonable that they would be ther social equals of leaders of major worlds. Historical emperors only ruled minor sections of a world, and a low- or at most mid-tech world at that. Why shouldn't an Imperial baron be the social equal of the leader of half a continent?

...and thus not in the context of the Imperial Navy. As for the prestige compared to local leaders, it depends on how you view the relationship of the Imperium as an interstellar government and its member worlds in your campaign.

No, it depends on how you view the relationship of SL 9 people with the leaders of the planets they come from. Are leaders of countries with several million inhabitants SL9? I really don't believe so. I interpret SL7 as middle middle class, SL8 as upper middle class and -- well, I actually don't think we get into the real gentry until SL10, but I used the term for SL9 to err on the side of caution. Anyway, by gentry I mean the lord of the manor outside the village, not anything a Briton would consider a peer.

BTW, by 'the lord of the manor' I also mean anyone of comparable status in all the societies that don't have lords of the manor; they'll have something comparable instead.


Hans

 

[rust]

You have one high marquis per major world; it seems reasonable that they would be ther social equals of leaders of major worlds.

Looking at the UWPs, the huge majority of those nobles do neither
rule nor lead, their role is more like that of the Queen's Governor-
General in Australia or Canada.

 

[Hans Rancke]

You have one high marquis per major world; it seems reasonable that they would be ther social equals of leaders of major worlds.

Looking at the UWPs, the huge majority of those nobles do neither rule nor lead, their role is more like that of the Queen's Governor-General in Australia or Canada.

And what would you say the social level of the Queen's Governor-Generals are compared to the premiers of Australia and Canada?


Hans

 

[rust]

And what would you say the social level of the Queen's Governor-Generals are compared to the premiers of Australia and Canada?

It depends on whether you mean the ceremonial or the actual
social level. The premier really can get things done, he is at the
top of the state's "chain of command", while the Governor-Ge-
neral is in almost all situations a mere figurehead without any
real influence or power.
Therefore, in Traveller terms I would give the premier a high
Soc with the bonus to his relevant skills, while I would hesitate
to give the Governor-General the same high Soc - he may ha-
ve a high ceremonial status, but this does not translate into in-
creased influence or power.

 

[Hans Rancke]

And what would you say the social level of the Queen's Governor-Generals are compared to the premiers of Australia and Canada?

It depends on whether you mean the ceremonial or the actual social level. The premier really can get things done, he is at the top of the state's "chain of command", while the Governor-General is in almost all situations a mere figurehead without any real influence or power.

I mean do they attend the same functions, belong to the same clubs, send their children to the same schools? Are they People Like Us to each other?

Therefore, in Traveller terms I would give the premier a high Soc with the bonus to his relevant skills, while I would hesitate to give the Governor-General the same high Soc - he may have a high ceremonial status, but this does not translate into increased influence or power.

This is mere quibbling. Traveller social levels divide everyone from the ruler of tens of billions of people (Imperial dukes) and down to society's dregs (SL1) into just 15 social levels. At that resolution, the entire British peerage would belong to the same social level. You might be able to justify putting governor-generals and premiers one level apart (although I don't think it would be reasonable to do so), but not anything more than that. And that would be for the egalitarian 21st Century where elected officials have a cachet they didn't have in the more authoritarian 18th and 19th Century that Imperial society seems to echo. Skills don't enter into it at all.

I repeat that IMO Imperial marquesses and the leaders of major worlds logically belong to the same social level. They would attend the same functions, belong to the same clubs, send their children to the same schools, are People Like Us to each other.


Hans

 

[rust]

Skills don't enter into it at all.

Here we disagree, because in Traveller the main function
of Soc is to provide a bonus to skills, otherwise it is just
"fluff" one can interpret in many different ways.

 

[Hans Rancke]

Skills don't enter into it at all.

Here we disagree, because in Traveller the main function of Soc is to provide a bonus to skills, otherwise it is just "fluff" one can interpret in many different ways.

Do you have any evidence at all that social level can be affected by skills? Any examples of Imperial barons that weren't SL12, marquesses that weren't SL13, counts that weren't SL14, dukes that weren't SL15? Siblings with different social level due to skill? Professional colleagues with different social levels due to difference in skill? Any example of social level that wasn't due to station in life, either by birth or achievement?


Hans

 

[rust]

Do you have any evidence at all that social level can be affected by skills?

Nope, I mean the opposite way: The only function of the
Social Status characteristic in the Mongoose Traveller ru-
les is to provide a modifier to skill rolls.

For example, a higher Soc means a higher chance of suc-
cess in the use of the Leadership skill - the Imperial noble
with Soc 10 and Leadership-1 automatically has a higher
success chance with Leadership than the pirate captain or
mercenary officer with Soc 7 and Leadership-1.

Beyond that, it is up to the individual referee to make of
Social Status whatever fits into his interpretation of a set-
ting or campaign.