Money Money Money!

[Greyscale]

Okay, first, please excuse me if this seems a little stupid: I come from a D&D background where the world magically scales to fit the players.

Okay. So the players start off in debt, they have got a crappy seeker mining ship. Right.

What happens if the players capture another ship? Ships are so crazy expensive, do they just get rich by selling it or their previous ship?

Am I just being unreasonable? It just seems very strange that players could suddenly have this sort of wealth in their hands. It would destroy the whole 'poor people in space' vibe, if, one lucky/intelligently captured ship later the whole crew has battledress and FGMP (even assuming half the money was spent on bribes to get that stuff).

Convince me I'm missing something!

 

[zanwot]

Getting "hold" of a space ship and then selling it is quite ok. It is called Piracy, or grand theft, and illegal retailing, etc etc.
If your players like to be in jail, or dead, that's their prerogative.

Traveller is like the real world, not D&D: You don't "own" the stuff of whoever you kill, and police and such is a reality.

That being said, it is quite usual for Traveller players to get borderline with the law. Adds to the fun really.
And if they get too greedy, what is to stop you from putting them in some very very big mess and/or taking away their unfairly won goods?

 

[AndrewW]

Getting "hold" of a space ship and then selling it is quite ok. It is called Piracy, or grand theft, and illegal retailing, etc etc.
If your players like to be in jail, or dead, that's their prerogative.

Well, there is salvage as well to consider. Sounds like it could be a good lead in to a Prison Planet adventure though.

That being said, it is quite usual for Traveller players to get borderline with the law. Adds to the fun really.
And if they get too greedy, what is to stop you from putting them in some very very big mess and/or taking away their unfairly won goods?

All sorts of possibilities here. Original owners returning to claim the ship the players liberated. Those pirates they defeated to get the ship had stolen it from someone that now wants it back.

 

[Greyscale]

Mmm. You are right, of course.

But what about pirates? If they are attacked by pirates and manage to take the pirates ship. Say, a corsair.

Assuming that the pirates didn't steal the ship from someone initially then would it not be the players?

Obviously if they rode around in it it would cause trouble with people thinking they were pirates, but what if they went through the proper channels to register it as theirs legally, or whatever.

I'm aware that its Referees prerogative to make it difficult for the players to get their hands on a ship, but I feel like it would be really heavy handed to just make up a reason for them not to be able to sell / steal a ship safely every time.

Obviously the GM should make getting another ship outrageously difficult, but to say its impossible...

So what happens when the players get a ship that they would reasonably be allowed to have? Are they suddenly rich? What are the effects of that? Do you really suggest I just go out of my way to not let this come about? That would feel like mean refereeing to me (if the players worked hard to get it), but I still don't have much experience with traveller.

This isn't something actually happening in game, its just something I was wondering about.

 

[AndrewW]

Mmm. You are right, of course.

But what about pirates? If they are attacked by pirates and manage to take the pirates ship. Say, a corsair.

Assuming that the pirates didn't steal the ship from someone initially then would it not be the players?

Obviously if they rode around in it it would cause trouble with people thinking they were pirates, but what if they went through the proper channels to register it as theirs legally, or whatever.

Registered or not there would be those that remembered the ship and would automatically assume it's the same bunch. Shoot first and ask questions later. Or always having trouble with customs, port authorities, whatever.

I'm aware that its Referees prerogative to make it difficult for the players to get their hands on a ship, but I feel like it would be really heavy handed to just make up a reason for them not to be able to sell / steal a ship safely every time.

There usually wouldn't be that many opportunities that come up. Sure it can happen but it's not like it would be a regular event. Unless you wish it so. Taking your D&D example, how many times do player's just walk in find a dragons hoard and manage to get away with the whole treasure?

So what happens when the players get a ship that they would reasonably be allowed to have? Are they suddenly rich? What are the effects of that? Do you really suggest I just go out of my way to not let this come about? That would feel like terrible refereeing to me, but I still don't have much experience with traveller.

Nope, having a ship doesn't make them suddenly rich. Even if they decided to sell it off they may have a hard time doing so with the history of the ship, it's age, ect. And may not get anywhere near full price. One could always tax the sale as well, transfer fees, ect. Perhaps they find a buyer but have to deliver the ship and run across pirates on the way their, damaging the ship such that the buyers are no longer interested.

 

[Emperor Herdan]

Hmm the two ancient (and honourable) laws of Salvage and Finds pop into my mind right off the bat.

Law of Salvage: If property is owned, those finding it are entitled to compensation for their salvage efforts.

Law of Finds: Salvor is entitled to all reclaimed property if it is proved to be abandoned.

So.. assuming that the seeker players were attacked by pirates and defeated the pirates. This will be more of a Law of Finds...

Locals would have to impound the Pirate ship (possibly the PC's as well) until the facts could be determined. If the PC's are fairly innocent, then they could be let go but not be allowed to leave the system until a full investigation was done. If there was _any_ claim on the ship (say the original owner owed a mortgage on it, and then fled to turn Pirate) then it would revert back to the true owner (the bank) and the group get treated more like the Laws of Salvage.. A nice reward but no more than 25- 50% of the ship...

If it was a true pirate ship, with no other claim upon it, I doubt that the PC's would get it in toto. They probably would get a reward for it though. Perhaps 50- 75% of the value of the pirate ship ! All depends if the PC's have a local history (bad or good). In any case, most systems would be reluctant to just hand over the keys to another group who just might go into the Pirate business themselves...Likewise the News groups would hail the PC's as "Common Man turns tables on evil Pirates!" and so the pals of the (now) deceased Pirates know who to look up for "repayment".
Lots of Fun for the GM (Yay!)

Now if the PC's don't want to go that route, then they have to leave the system with their "reward" without notifing the authorities. Now they could easily be mistaken as the previous owners (both bad and good?), with the possible bonus that pals of the pirates come looking for them to even the score as well as any local navy etc. Not to mention how are they going to register the ship, and look after it? Lots of future fun for the GM ! (Yay!)

Just a few thoughts right off the top...

Take care

E. Herdan

 

[BP]

If the players 'capture' a ship - the GM had to put it there....

And other considerations aside - they now have a 'rich' set of new problems - crewing the ship, repairing and maintaining the ship, paying to 'legally' own the ship, selling the ship - fees and commissions - actually collecting their payment :wink:

Besides - Traveller isn't 'about' becoming rich unless you want it to be - easy come, easy go - let them have their monies and start buying all the toys. Now they have the goods to be taken on by the big boys!

 

[zanwot]

Ok, I think your problem is that you consider the players like super-beings, like in D&D. They are not.
The only thing that sets them appart from NPCs, is their psychology.

So: Pirates a neither weak, nor stupid. Pirates would not be Pirates if they were stupid, or weak. So they will not attack a starship if they do not have a clear advantage. And if they have a clear advantage (such as a Corsair against a 100 ton ship), well the victim players should run, or they will get very dead.

We now come to problem number two: As a GM, you must not be afraid to go through with things, and potentially kill the player characters. Of course if they get into a situation where it is them or the pirates you will be tempted to make it easyer for them. Don't, they will just end up with way too much goodies way too easy. Go through with it, make them learnm the hard way, make the Pirates kill some of them and cripple/capture the others. The best is the players will like it in the long run.

That being said, things can happen, and maybe the players find a way to capture a Corsair ship. First of all ownership is not obvious, I would say the Imperium would give tham a shiny medal and reclaim the Corsair (just the same as if you presented the authorities with a bandit's car the state would not give it to you). Secondly, even if the players do get super rich (hopefully eventually though, make them deserve it), well that just can lead on to new advetures : There is allways a bigger fish in a empire of 10 thousand solar systems. And the bigger fish is where adventure is.

But finally, don't forget the GM has full control of the universe. If you want to take a starship or anything else away from the players, it is fairly easy. Juste like giving them something you need them to have. Of course this is unfair, but it is the imperative of the plot. Or you could just let them do and look at them get themselves in a mess (If the players have a Corsair ship, they will have to crew it, then run it, then....).

 

[Leo Knight]

Back in the day, with the original edition of Traveller, it was much more likely to come out of chargen with a ship. In one campaign I ran, one player had a scout, another had a corsair! I know I should have vetoed, but they whined and gave me the lost puppy look. My advice: give them enough rope to hang themselves.

Fortunately for me, they went looking for trouble. They tried to run a variation of the Q-ship, pretending to be damaged or in distress, then pouncing when their rescuers arrived. I made sure that the first encounter was with a heavily armed fellow pirate vessel, trying to pick off some easy prey. The PCs did actually win, but at quite a cost. The auction of the captured criminal vessel, and the reward for removing this scourge of the spaceways, were barely enough to pay for repairs, with a bit left over.

Later, they tried to go pirate themselves. It didn't work out well, with the owner of the corsair arrested and on trial for piracy, and his friends trying to raise funds for a legal defense while simultaneously trying to arrange a jailbreak. Had the group not broken up, I'd have had great fun running the first version of Prison Planet!

 

[lurker]

Numerous random encounters can give characters an opportunity to encounter and depending on how the players react, possibly gain a ship.
Space Encounters table on page 139

Of course it is up to the GM to determine the details.

There is nothing wrong with players getting additional ships or getting rich. The campaign could be about the characters building their own shipping company with numerous ships. Gathering the resources to equip a private army to overthrow the tyrant ruler of their homeworld.

If the GM has a plot or adventure that would get sidelined by the characters becoming rich, then it is within the GMs power to prevent it or make it disappear.

 

[Leo Knight]

More to your question, it's not that the world or universe scales to fit the players, it's that they attract threats or challenges that want to take them on. Like on Old West gunfighter, eventually someone will come gunning for him who is better equipped, more skilled, meaner or sneakier. Think of "The Magnificent Seven" (re-imagined as the sci-fi film "Battle Beyond the Stars"). A bunch of well armed desperadoes take over a town/ planet. The townspeople send for help, and a better gang of gunfighters/ mercenaries arrives to save the day. Imagine your players in the role of Eli Wallach/ John Saxon. Or, if they are more noble in attitude than my players, imagine them being called on to help the poor townsfolk. "Surely, senor, with your great wealth and powerful weapons, you could help our poor, helpless town/ planet?"

 

[dmccoy1693]

Traveller vs D&D:

D&D has levels so the monsters increase as you get more powerful.
Traveller has none of that. Your hardened war vet can die in an instant from a granade just as easily as an 18 year old musician.

D&D assumes that you get more gear as you go up in level.
Traveller lends itself to that, but it is by no means a given that an older person will have a lots of stuff.

D&D magic item gets broken, its useless.
Traveller high tech gets broken, players can fix it.

D&D a +1 sword is a +1 sword and you can sell it at any old magic item shop.
Traveller a 100 ton ship has a name and a registry. Selling it might be bad, keeping it might be bad, going somewhere in it might be bad, going on it might be bad. Safest thing to do is to blow it up from a safe, safe distance.

 

[AndrewW]

Traveller vs D&D:

D&D a +1 sword is a +1 sword and you can sell it at any old magic item shop.

Well, that +1 sword could have other properties and could even be intelligent.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Well, that +1 sword could have other properties and could even be intelligent.

Then its not a +1 sword anymore. Its a +1 intelligent sword or a +1 flaming sword or a +1 keen sword or ...

But just a regular old +1 sword with no other buffs is the same as any other +1 sword of the same type.

 

[Greyscale]

Okay, we sort of wandered from the point here.

I understand that the referee should not just be handing out ships, and that players will die just as easily as anyone else.

The gist of my question was more along the lines of "when the players do something that would have significant rewards (in the multiple Mcr), how does that effect the game"?


Another thought: It seems like I am seeing a lot of 'make it impossible for the players to do such a thing' mentality. Obviously it is well within the rights of the referee to take and give things as it suits the story, but taking things from players 'just cuz plot' more than once or twice seems a bit ham-handed.

That said, I like:
Authorities taking the ship
Pirates taking vengeance
Original owner claiming ship
Ship is scrapped to repair other ship
Ship is blown to crap and has only a little salvage.


Although my question wasn't really about ships, but any expensive object in general. Also it was a theoretical question, I wouldn't throw free ships at my players during an actual game.

 

[Leo Knight]

Sorry if I wandered. I've had about 3 hours sleep in the last 48. Whatever the advantage your players get, eventually people will take notice of that advantage, and consequences will come with that advantage, for good or ill. If they get rich, people will want some of that money, just like somone who won the lottery in our world. If they are elevated to nobility, new responsibilities come with that, and maybe new enemies. "With great power comes great responsibility". "The nail that stands up might be pounded down". "The Monkey's Paw", etc.

Another rule of thumb is, "What would happen to someone in our world in this approximate situation?" The results need not be hazardous or fatal. Sometimes they might be comical, too.

 

[BP]

... within the GMs power to prevent it or make it disappear.

Referee -
"Okay guys, all the sudden you all feel like a cold wind just blew up your backsides and all the hairs on your skin seem to have come to attention."

"And Joey by the starboard portal exclaims - 'Hey, where the frak did our pirate ship go?!?!' :twisted:

 

[AndrewW]

Well, that +1 sword could have other properties and could even be intelligent.

Then its not a +1 sword anymore. Its a +1 intelligent sword or a +1 flaming sword or a +1 keen sword or ...

But just a regular old +1 sword with no other buffs is the same as any other +1 sword of the same type.

Not always, you might think it is and not know about some of the other abilities.

 

[dmccoy1693]

The gist of my question was more along the lines of "when the players do something that would have significant rewards (in the multiple Mcr), how does that effect the game"?

Typically, buy bigger guns and a bigger ship that can hold more cargo/mounted weapons/etc. But that depends greatly on the players. If they want to save up and buy a moon and turn it into a tourist location, they can. If they want to build their own merc empire, they can. If they want to spend some of their money funding things close to their heart, they can. Or they could just retire the character because in the lap of luxery.

Another thought: It seems like I am seeing a lot of 'make it impossible for the players to do such a thing' mentality. Obviously it is well within the rights of the referee to take and give things as it suits the story, but taking things from players 'just cuz plot' more than once or twice seems a bit ham-handed.

You ever watch Firefly? On the show, the crew perform a job and sometimes make off with the goods. Most of the time they don't.

If all the players want to do is haul cargo and avoid danger, they can, but it won't get them wealthy and there's no fun in that. If they're willing to risk danger, then they have to risk not succeeding. In D&D, you fail, you die. In Traveller, you fail, sometimes you die. But most of the time you walk away poorer but wiser. Don't be afraid in Traveller to let the players fail. But make sure their rewards are that much sweeter when they do succeed.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Not always, you might think it is and not know about some of the other abilities.

Identify spell. You know what it is. You know what it does. Anything else is the DM changing the rules.