Money Money Money!

[saundby]

Just before the sale of the superfluous ship goes through, some of the cadets from the local SDB corps take it for a joyride.

The joyride turns fatal when they go for a jump without apporpriate preparation.

The crew becomes liable for the "attractive nuisance."

 

[kristof65]

The scale of a Traveller campaign really depends on what both the players and GM want from it.

I've run Traveller campaigns where not a single PC owned a ship, and many of the adventures centered around the PCs getting enough money to travel to their next port of call, where their next get rich scheme awaited them.

I've run campaigns where the PCs had ships, and struggled to pay the bills by trading and sometimes other not so noble activities.

And I've even ran a Traveller campaign where each of the players had their own empire, navy, colonies, etc.

All of the campaigns were fun - the last one actually scaled out of a smaller campaign where one of the PCs stole a naval ship, recruited a crew and headed off into the the great unknown.


Point is that no matter what the power level and capabilities of the PCs, you challenge them by providing challenges that are appropriate to what they can and would face.

If they have no ship, no money and need to get another world, getting transport is a good challenge. If they have no ship and money, then having the ship hijacked enroute can be a good challenge. If they have a ship, and are transporting passengers, keeping one of those passengers from hijacking them is a good challenge. If they hijack a Naval ship, then sending fully armed naval units after them is a good challenge. If they manage to take over an entire world, then dealing with the challenges of running and defending it, along with keeping their position secure are the things they should face.

 

[AndrewW]

Not always, you might think it is and not know about some of the other abilities.

Identify spell. You know what it is. You know what it does. Anything else is the DM changing the rules.

You might know what it is. Yes there is the identify spell and other stuff such as an artificers monocle doesn't mean these are going to be used. One might get a sword that they are told is +1 for example and not do anything further but use it. That +1 sword might even be in reality an artifact which identify doesn't work on, but the players don't realize this and need to do something to activate other powers. Either way, going rather off topic by this point.

 

[zanwot]

Another thought: It seems like I am seeing a lot of 'make it impossible for the players to do such a thing' mentality. Obviously it is well within the rights of the referee to take and give things as it suits the story, but taking things from players 'just cuz plot' more than once or twice seems a bit ham-handed.

Well I certainly don't mean that personnaly, I mean that stealing a starship, and getting away with it, is not easy, unless the referee makes it easy on purpose.
Plus of course, players are there for the adventure, so they need allways the extra challenge, like kristof65 mentioned. So as a general rule the referee should be making things harder, or at least adding challenge. The thing is even with the referee adding some home made challenges, chances are it will be easyer than it would be in reality.


Concerning your question of how it affects games if the players get rich? Not that much. Basically as Kristof mentioned there are 3 important levels of wealth: not owning a starship, owning a starship, and managing a fleet/a planet/etc.
Because starships are so exensive, the gap between these three levels is so massive that your players cannot possibly change quickly and significantly of levels of wealth without the GM doing it for them.
For example, if the players get a second ship, and then sell one of their ships, well they will still be going about in a ship, they will not have reached the third level of wealth, it will just be a bigger ship with a crew to manage, they will have battle dress instead of vacc suit, etc. More possibilities will be open to them and to the referee. Also they could pay back their debt of course, and stop being concerned about trading stuff and other smalljobs if they find it tedious. As a referee you just have to up the stakes a bit.

 

[Walker]

Okay, first, please excuse me if this seems a little stupid: I come from a D&D background where the world magically scales to fit the players.

Okay. So the players start off in debt, they have got a crappy seeker mining ship. Right.

What happens if the players capture another ship? Ships are so crazy expensive, do they just get rich by selling it or their previous ship?

Am I just being unreasonable? It just seems very strange that players could suddenly have this sort of wealth in their hands. It would destroy the whole 'poor people in space' vibe, if, one lucky/intelligently captured ship later the whole crew has battledress and FGMP (even assuming half the money was spent on bribes to get that stuff).

Convince me I'm missing something!

Coming to this a bit but I don't see that anyone has mentioned the following point (sorry if someone did and I missed it).

Even if the players come into the possession of a second - maybe - better ship, they can't just sell the original ship outright - at least not if they have a mortgage. The bank is going to take it's money off the top of any sale. Plus, and just look at the recent US housing market as an example, the ship may - probably won't - not sell for a profit. So they could end owing money to the bank even after the sale.

This puts them in the position of:

1 - Having two ships to maintain with all the costs and potential issues brought up before about the 'second' ship, or
2 - Try to sell the original ship without the bank's knowledge and pocketing the money, which leaves them open to possible retribution from the bank, the government, and/or the buyers (if the bank tracks them down and takes the ship back).

This is all good fodder for role playing, but it would be incumbunt on the GM to add the appropriate level of stress to a group that came into such a seeming windfall.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

Ultimately, the GM, DM, ST, Referee (that kind of scans), is there to facilitate an atmosphere of fun.

If your players have fun getting the snot kicked out of them, having all bugger beaten from them, and being kicked in the teeth, by all means, present them with a nigh-impossible fight that they win with considerably difficulty, capturing the pirate vessel, only to have the authorities impound their gains and screw them over, leaving them with nothing for their trouble.


That, however, is not what I would reccomend. The PCs, in their 100 D-Ton mining vessel, somehow not only fought off pirates boarding them but fought them off well enough to push the fight onto the pirates' own vessel and win? Great! It's possible; the dice can do some crazy things, including leading Traveller characters to such ripshot heroics that the Chosen of the Unconquered Sun would be proud to call them their own.

So, they move into the pirate vessel, put their old seeker in the hock. Now they have a bunch of cash and a ship four times as large as their old one. What now?

Escalate the game. Have the locals ask them for help - the pirates they killed have bretheren, and the pirate brotherhood has been a plauge upon the system/region. The players are handed a letter of marquee/given a charter to hunt pirates, think it might be a good idea to go recruiting people who want to be bad-ass space marines but never made the official cut, and they go hunting pirate.

Or maybe they turn pirate themselves. Or maybe they go trading in a new, very-heavily-armed trading vessel. Does it matter? What matters is that they should be having fun. Don't be afraid to escalate the game. Go with the flow.

 

[Galadrion]

Locals would have to impound the Pirate ship (possibly the PC's as well) until the facts could be determined. If the PC's are fairly innocent, then they could be let go but not be allowed to leave the system until a full investigation was done. If there was _any_ claim on the ship (say the original owner owed a mortgage on it, and then fled to turn Pirate) then it would revert back to the true owner (the bank) and the group get treated more like the Laws of Salvage.. A nice reward but no more than 25- 50% of the ship...

Hm... Well, the player-characters wouldn't be able to leave until they'd made arrangements with some suitable local agent, anyway - say, they put a local attorney under retainer to represent their interests. And they wouldn't be allowed to do that much until the authorities had determined that they weren't criminally liable, at the least. As for salvage value, your figures sound awfully high to me. Historically (British Empire, which is organizationally comparable to the OTU - Age of Sail, you know), the "prize" for a naval ship which captured enemy or piratical tonnage which was retained by the government either for recommissioning or for sale was around 3% of appraised value, shared out on a graduated basis among the crew. Freelancers with no prior position with said government would be lucky to get even 2%. And remember, that's a percentage of the ship's current value... which is going to include debits for necessary repairs and upgrades, at the least. (Pirates aren't noted for keeping up on ship's maintainance, after all.)

As for salvage values, if the government chooses not to retain, well, that'll depend on the condition of the ship. If all that's left is a hulk suitable for scrapping, you're probably talking about no more than 50% of the value of the hull itself, not counting streamlining costs. After all, this is the ship's value as scrap, not as a ship. If it's in better shape than that, the crew can sell it as a second-hand ship... after they repair/refit it, jump through all the bureaucratic hoops, this, that, and the other... all of which cost money which must be sunk into the ship before it can be properly sold... or the ship must be sold "as is", with all those costs knocked off of the sale price... and a buyer won't apply the "second-hand discount" to those expenses, so while the ship's value is discounted, those adjustments to the ship's price aren't...

Players can make money by capturing pirate vessels, but it shouldn't be a game-breaker, and it won't if you run the game intelligently.

 

[towerwarlock]

There is one problem with capturing that ship that everyone is forgetting:

What makes you think that making planetfall would be possible. The greatest likelihood is that the authorities simply blast the ship as soon as it appears. Why risk damage to civilians that may very well raise a fuss. Simply waste the pirate ship.

Now the best option is for the seeker crew to send out an SOS and summon the authorities to stake the claim openly. Also, given the nature of the ships used as pirate ships, they are likely to be outmoded and sold of as scrap years ago anyway. Likely the players would be allowed to keep the ship after the weapons are stripped out and such. But first the authorities would go over it with a fine tooth comb to find out where their base of operation is. Then they would give it to them. As for such a pirate gang seeking vengeance, more than likely either the previous owner was the leader and someone else is grateful for the chance to take over, or the gang's real leader is happy to be rid of a potential rival (especially if he was a successful pirate). They would not really want revenge. Hollywood aside, that kind of thing is bad for business. The gang would more than likely be taking steps to head to another system or sector for a decade or so until the heat dies down.

 

[Vile]

Getting away from the piracy issue and back to the idea of what to do if Traveller PCs get rich - why not let them keep their hard-earned MCr?

As a referee, there are lots of ways to keep your players' characters them poor, you are god after all. But you can just as easily run a game where the PCs are wealthy, it will just be a different type of game. And in an interstellar setting, there will always be lots of people with lots more money than the PCs. Owning a small corporation in a universe of megacorps will introduce them a whole new world of 'being poor'. :wink:

 

[Ishmael]

would players really carry cash around like that? OR would various law enforcement agencies get curious about them having so much cash in their pockets.
Maybe they invest it and fall victim to a Ponzi scheme or just a general economic crash.
or maybe their broker disappears with the investment monies.
People will target them if they have millions in cash floating around in their pockets.
Tax collectors and scam artists will target them if they own it but don't have it floating around in their pockets.

Even $100 million dollars isn't that much compared to what corporations and governments toss around... chump change really. and thats modern day tech 8 dollars
Imagine how that'd compare to a multiworld ( forget multi-national ) government or megacorp.

If nothing else, I hope their lawyers can keep them free of liability accusations.
Sure.. easy peasy considering how 'safe' most pc's are.

( btw, the pc's lawyers will be chumps compared to what the mega-corps or the Imperium can afford....)

 

[Woas]

As a newcomer to Traveller myself I had the same reservations as you, but I think once you get actual play time you will realize a million Credits isn't that astronomical.

From my experience over the past 5 weeks since I started Refing a weekly face-to-face Traveller game, at first I wanted to make sure the characters had to work for their Credits. They being Bounty Hunters I started off the first 'hook' with a 250,000 Cr bounty. I thought that was pretty high but really it was a test number. After the bounty was caught and money claimed I learned that 250,000 Cr isn't really that much. Taking in: Cost of living expenses (I nail the characters on room/board when living on a colonized planet. Can easily be ~100 Cr per day), cost of fuel/berthing, ship maintenance (if you don't want to kill the characters from a misjump roll during a Jump, then a hefty 100,000+ Cr repair bill when they realized their engines turned to pudding is always fun!), monthly ship payment (and even for a simple d100 Type S ship, that monthly payment is going to be 6 figured a month!), crew payments (the players with characters that do not have Ship Shares are treated as regular crew and have a monthly salary to be paid). And there are more ways for them to spend money. And all these things are an 'all the time' deal so in a Traveller game Credits always seem to be flying out of a character's bank card for something.

So now, over these short five weeks the player's an I have realized they need to be frying the big fish. To even get their attention I need to entice them with 500,000 Cr to 1 MCr bounties. And really they won't look at the half a million credit bounties unless the job looks like it has a quick turn around.

For example the last bounty they went after was worth 500,000 Cr. After they collected that bounty an everything was paid for the ship netted a whopping 9,000 Cr profit out of half a million!

The gist of my question was more along the lines of "when the players do something that would have significant rewards (in the multiple Mcr), how does that effect the game"?

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

As a newcomer to Traveller myself I had the same reservations as you, but I think once you get actual play time you will realize a million Credits isn't that astronomical.

From my experience over the past 5 weeks since I started Refing a weekly face-to-face Traveller game, at first I wanted to make sure the characters had to work for their Credits. They being Bounty Hunters I started off the first 'hook' with a 250,000 Cr bounty. I thought that was pretty high but really it was a test number. After the bounty was caught and money claimed I learned that 250,000 Cr isn't really that much. Taking in: Cost of living expenses (I nail the characters on room/board when living on a colonized planet. Can easily be ~100 Cr per day), cost of fuel/berthing, ship maintenance (if you don't want to kill the characters from a misjump roll during a Jump, then a hefty 100,000+ Cr repair bill when they realized their engines turned to pudding is always fun!), monthly ship payment (and even for a simple d100 Type S ship, that monthly payment is going to be 6 figured a month!), crew payments (the players with characters that do not have Ship Shares are treated as regular crew and have a monthly salary to be paid). And there are more ways for them to spend money. And all these things are an 'all the time' deal so in a Traveller game Credits always seem to be flying out of a character's bank card for something.

So now, over these short five weeks the player's an I have realized they need to be frying the big fish. To even get their attention I need to entice them with 500,000 Cr to 1 MCr bounties. And really they won't look at the half a million credit bounties unless the job looks like it has a quick turn around.

For example the last bounty they went after was worth 500,000 Cr. After they collected that bounty an everything was paid for the ship netted a whopping 9,000 Cr profit out of half a million!

The gist of my question was more along the lines of "when the players do something that would have significant rewards (in the multiple Mcr), how does that effect the game"?

You could probably get away with lowering that a whack if you lowered their expenses significantly - such as, say, just giving the players a ship by fiat at the start of the game. Or giving them the opportunity to capture a larger, beefier vessel so they can tell the creditors of the Type S to take the damn thing, we mailed you the start-up codes.


I think part of the problem is that, in MongTrav so far, I have yet to see a "ship" result other than "Scout" that resulted in the player simply getting a Jump-capable ship, free and clear - and even "Scout" isn't free and clear, since your ship and you can be pressed back into service! It was always something stupid like "five shares of a useless type of ship, or two shares of another."

 

[AndrewW]

I think part of the problem is that, in MongTrav so far, I have yet to see a "ship" result other than "Scout" that resulted in the player simply getting a Jump-capable ship, free and clear - and even "Scout" isn't free and clear, since your ship and you can be pressed back into service! It was always something stupid like "five shares of a useless type of ship, or two shares of another."

I'll disagree, any ship can be useful if it gets you where you are going and back again.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

I think part of the problem is that, in MongTrav so far, I have yet to see a "ship" result other than "Scout" that resulted in the player simply getting a Jump-capable ship, free and clear - and even "Scout" isn't free and clear, since your ship and you can be pressed back into service! It was always something stupid like "five shares of a useless type of ship, or two shares of another."

I'll disagree, any ship can be useful if it gets you where you are going and back again.

If all you need is transport to and fro, you might be better of hiring someone else to take you. Or using your TAS free bianual high passage.

I'm not saying a ship isn't a ship, but some ships are more ship than others - really, which is better, a scout, or a 'roid miner? Unless you want to go mining, you're gonna say the scout. Which is better, if you're PCs, who are typically people who want lots of weaponry around? A scout or a Corsair? The Corsair, obviously.

Then you wind up with shares in... A laboratory ship. Unless you're planning on doing some serious science, that's going to be pretty useless. And a Yacht's not much better, being a slow luxury tub.

 

[AndrewW]

If all you need is transport to and fro, you might be better of hiring someone else to take you. Or using your TAS free bianual high passage.

I'm not saying a ship isn't a ship, but some ships are more ship than others - really, which is better, a scout, or a 'roid miner? Unless you want to go mining, you're gonna say the scout. Which is better, if you're PCs, who are typically people who want lots of weaponry around? A scout or a Corsair? The Corsair, obviously.

Then you wind up with shares in... A laboratory ship. Unless you're planning on doing some serious science, that's going to be pretty useless. And a Yacht's not much better, being a slow luxury tub.

One ship can be better then another but that doesn't make the other types useless. Sure, you can sometimes take another ship but there may not be one going where you need to go. And you can setup your own ship whatever it's type may be for your own needs.

 

[Woas]

True, I could 'give' the ship to them. But where's the fun in that? :twisted:

You could probably get away with lowering that a whack if you lowered their expenses significantly - such as, say, just giving the players a ship by fiat at the start of the game. Or giving them the opportunity to capture a larger, beefier vessel so they can tell the creditors of the Type S to take the damn thing, we mailed you the start-up codes.

 

[kristof65]

But you can just as easily run a game where the PCs are wealthy, it will just be a different type of game. And in an interstellar setting, there will always be lots of people with lots more money than the PCs. Owning a small corporation in a universe of megacorps will introduce them a whole new world of 'being poor'. :wink:

Well said. Frex, in the OTU, even PCs controlling sub-sector wide corporations, or entire multi-system planetary navies are still just the little guys.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

True, I could 'give' the ship to them. But where's the fun in that? :twisted:

You could probably get away with lowering that a whack if you lowered their expenses significantly - such as, say, just giving the players a ship by fiat at the start of the game. Or giving them the opportunity to capture a larger, beefier vessel so they can tell the creditors of the Type S to take the damn thing, we mailed you the start-up codes.

Well, sure, if you have a dynamic that's working "large paydays, large expenses," go for it.

I'm just saying, I'd prefer that my PCs, were I reffing - and my characters, when/if I'm playing - have their own Jumpship, free and clear.

 

[Captain Jonah]

With regard to lots of cash on board a ship. How exactly do your players trade or much else, do they have a local bank with the money it. Its all well and good having 50m creds in the bank but its not much use buying cargo to fill your ship if the money is 3 jumps away.

Either the 3I has ways of people's bank balances being live on a card and you spend somewhere and they debit your live card then bill your home bank via mail ship or its a local account/cash on the barrel.

Large lines will have local brokers and accounts, players will either carry a few mil in petty cash or open an account on every world they trade on.

Me I say they have to do both, accounts on worlds where they work and a box of (almost) unforgeable large denomination credit chits. Those damn pirates ignored the cargo and emptied the captains safe !

With regard to the other part of this thread. Ships are very easy to misplace, having several means getting a ship shot to bits in battle or taken by those nasty pirates goes from being a massive shock to the campaign to a Get some cash and start buying wepons folks, we be huntin pirates now.

Ships are bit costly to maintain and hard to look after, as long as you restrict the hardcore military stuff your players may try to get giving them loads of cast doesn't kill a campaign, it raises it to a new level.

Just remember thos nasty pirates get everywhere and players who abuse GMs letting them have several ships can be dealt with. They know where you are, they know the door code on your ship, the pirates are watching you. Mwahahahahahahacough.

 

[ShadowDragon8685]

You're assuming (fairly enough) that the setting doesn't have FTL communication. If that assumption is off, then it becomes a matter of a bank querry to their bank account.