Mods for ACTA?
- Thread starter Ben2
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Morpheus1975
Mongoose
Quick question. with FOC if I go back and do the Rebel or Empires campaigns again can I use the new equipment or is it only available for conquest missions?
Hey Ben,
Love to see what you come up with if you do anything with SW in ACTA.
My biggest question on the conversion would be the shields - do you use a 'leaky' shields concept, like on the Drakh, where the shields never go down but some damage can slip though, or an 'absorption' shield, like we see in the SFB and B5W conversions.
Obviously you'd prefer the absorption shield, but with the way the damage system works it might be difficult.
Perhaps a damage threshold that sims the armor roll, then a X amount of hits?
Plus I figure you'd need a different critical chart in order to include the chance for a generator shield getting blown.
Then of course is the scaling - do you want the system to be crossover friendly or just internally consistent.
Actually surprised their hasn't been more mods/conversions for ACTA. Outside of the shield issue, it seems like it would be pretty easy to create for most other genres.
Love to see what you come up with if you do anything with SW in ACTA.
My biggest question on the conversion would be the shields - do you use a 'leaky' shields concept, like on the Drakh, where the shields never go down but some damage can slip though, or an 'absorption' shield, like we see in the SFB and B5W conversions.
Obviously you'd prefer the absorption shield, but with the way the damage system works it might be difficult.
Perhaps a damage threshold that sims the armor roll, then a X amount of hits?
Plus I figure you'd need a different critical chart in order to include the chance for a generator shield getting blown.
Then of course is the scaling - do you want the system to be crossover friendly or just internally consistent.
Actually surprised their hasn't been more mods/conversions for ACTA. Outside of the shield issue, it seems like it would be pretty easy to create for most other genres.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Morpheus1975 said:
we're drifting off topic a bit here but I dont think you can use the FoC stuff in the original two campaigns (though I have not actually tried). There is a full campaign for the new faction and the new stuff does feature in it (as enemeies not your units).
Still its all there in conquest and Id still say the game is infinitely better with the expansion
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
Absolutely no question; internally consistent only.
Google-fu the term 'Base Delta Zero'.
One individual Imperator class is capable of doing to a planet- the closest equivalent in the rules at the moment is the Shadow Cloud's special attack mode.
Three major caveats.
a) that's main gun firepower, not special weapon; it can throw that weight of fire in ship to ship as well. :shock: :?: :twisted:
Even by West End's numbers-out-of-the-air, a successful combined action to group fire the forward guns on an ISD-II gives a significantly non- zero single shot kill probability, on a Mars- sized planet at least.
b) it's own shields can take that level of sustained, ungrouped fire for a time between ten to forty minutes- Endor sets the boundaries on that.
c) Most of that power is also available to the engines. The official figure is thirty thousand metres per second per second.
At or probably beyond Ancient level- not surprising, considering the society it comes from has trillions of times more minds contributing to the tech and design base and trillions of times more wallets contributing to the construction of such a ship than the Ancients ever had. Crossover extremely unfriendly, unless you actually prefer the rule of Palpatine and Vader to that of Sheridan and Delenn.
Google-fu the term 'Base Delta Zero'.
One individual Imperator class is capable of doing to a planet- the closest equivalent in the rules at the moment is the Shadow Cloud's special attack mode.
Three major caveats.
a) that's main gun firepower, not special weapon; it can throw that weight of fire in ship to ship as well. :shock: :?: :twisted:
Even by West End's numbers-out-of-the-air, a successful combined action to group fire the forward guns on an ISD-II gives a significantly non- zero single shot kill probability, on a Mars- sized planet at least.
b) it's own shields can take that level of sustained, ungrouped fire for a time between ten to forty minutes- Endor sets the boundaries on that.
c) Most of that power is also available to the engines. The official figure is thirty thousand metres per second per second.
At or probably beyond Ancient level- not surprising, considering the society it comes from has trillions of times more minds contributing to the tech and design base and trillions of times more wallets contributing to the construction of such a ship than the Ancients ever had. Crossover extremely unfriendly, unless you actually prefer the rule of Palpatine and Vader to that of Sheridan and Delenn.
Oh, sorry, forgot about the cult of Star Wars out there. Let's just say I have significant differences of opinion in the capabilities of Star Wars tech.
Base Delta Zero - has it showed up in the EU yet? It certainly never is even intimated in the canon material.
Let's see - the wiki says Dankyao is given a Base Delta Zero in Scavenger Hunt. Looking at Scavenger Hunt right now - a Base Delta Zero says that it destroys the surface of the world, turning it to molten slag. Scavenger Hunt says three Imperial Star Destroyers turn the the 'tiny Rebel Base to slag' (exact words), but the moon surface is 'cratered.' Now do you suppose that the difference between melting the crust of a planet is just a tiny little bit different than cratering it's surface? A couple of orders of magnitude maybe?
The Imperial Sourcebook claims it takes a hundred ships to destroy the surface of the planet - which fits in fairly well with Solo's declaration that it would take more power than half the star fleet to destroy one - especially when we hear that said fleet contains at least 25,000 Star Destroyers in one of the Thrawn books.
All sorts of inconsistencies in the source material, but it's always magnified and amplified by some of the more rabid Star Wars fans.
Hell, most of it is based off of one SFX shot. One that has countervailling evidence in the same movie, but that's always ignored. LOL.
Base Delta Zero - has it showed up in the EU yet? It certainly never is even intimated in the canon material.
Let's see - the wiki says Dankyao is given a Base Delta Zero in Scavenger Hunt. Looking at Scavenger Hunt right now - a Base Delta Zero says that it destroys the surface of the world, turning it to molten slag. Scavenger Hunt says three Imperial Star Destroyers turn the the 'tiny Rebel Base to slag' (exact words), but the moon surface is 'cratered.' Now do you suppose that the difference between melting the crust of a planet is just a tiny little bit different than cratering it's surface? A couple of orders of magnitude maybe?
The Imperial Sourcebook claims it takes a hundred ships to destroy the surface of the planet - which fits in fairly well with Solo's declaration that it would take more power than half the star fleet to destroy one - especially when we hear that said fleet contains at least 25,000 Star Destroyers in one of the Thrawn books.
All sorts of inconsistencies in the source material, but it's always magnified and amplified by some of the more rabid Star Wars fans.
Hell, most of it is based off of one SFX shot. One that has countervailling evidence in the same movie, but that's always ignored. LOL.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Guys can we please not start this here, Ive seen some horrifiic forums where this sort of argument just gets ludicrous.
Trying to compare Star Wars 'science' to any other sci-fi is rediculous at best and damn stupid most of the rest of the time.
Star Wars is not even sci-fi in my opinion its a Fantasy film in space. Now Im not saying Star Trek or even B5 are soooooo amazingly realistic but simply put I get really annoyed when people start saying things like 'star wars ships are better cos they can kill anything in one shot, its obvious from that special effects shot that they have 90 bazillion gigawatts of power in every gun...'.
Star Wars is basically, ludicrous but its fun and looks cool and has great characters so people love it (myself included). Trying to compare it to (for lack of a better term) 'serious' sci fi just leads to silly pointless flame wars so lets just leave it and get back to the point of this thread, ie lets make a good star wars mod for ACTA
Trying to compare Star Wars 'science' to any other sci-fi is rediculous at best and damn stupid most of the rest of the time.
Star Wars is not even sci-fi in my opinion its a Fantasy film in space. Now Im not saying Star Trek or even B5 are soooooo amazingly realistic but simply put I get really annoyed when people start saying things like 'star wars ships are better cos they can kill anything in one shot, its obvious from that special effects shot that they have 90 bazillion gigawatts of power in every gun...'.
Star Wars is basically, ludicrous but its fun and looks cool and has great characters so people love it (myself included). Trying to compare it to (for lack of a better term) 'serious' sci fi just leads to silly pointless flame wars so lets just leave it and get back to the point of this thread, ie lets make a good star wars mod for ACTA
Hmmm... all sorts of info in the Stardestroyer.net reference on Base Delta Zero.
For example, it claims one was ordered on the planet Bothawui in Timothy Zahn's Vision of the Future. Read that one a while back, don't recall that in the book.
Happen to have it in .LIT format, makes searches a breeze. Sure enough, the words 'base delta zero' do not occur in the book. Indeed, the word 'delta' is no where to be found. Evidentally any time a planetary bombardment is mentioned in all the EU, they assume it's a Base Delta Zero - yet the only place that I've ever seen the term actually come up is a obscure Star Wars Technical Journal article about 25 years old.
VotF does talk about three Star Destroyers attempting to attack Bothawui - planning to have someone sabotage one of the planetary shield generators, then bombard the city it was protecting and do as much damage to Bothawui through that hole that they can...
In the novel an Imperial strike team gets aboard a Ishori war cruiser, gets its hands on a turbolaser cluster, and is specifically said to fire eight TL blasts into a Bothawui city.
Based on Saxton's figures, it's hard to imagine anything being left after that - gigaton explosions, right? Even if the city superstructure was incredibly tough, that level of explosion would flash fry the air and burn every living beings lungs out.
The novel says the city is on fire and Han asks how badly it's been hit - an interesting question if the equivalent of a thousand nuclear weapons just went off over the city.
Later on Leia says 'no serious damage has been done to either side' at that point in the battle - after the eight TL shots have hit the capital city.
All sorts of evidence pointing to far less power than supposed by some of the fans, pretty much throughout the books and movies.
For example, it claims one was ordered on the planet Bothawui in Timothy Zahn's Vision of the Future. Read that one a while back, don't recall that in the book.
Happen to have it in .LIT format, makes searches a breeze. Sure enough, the words 'base delta zero' do not occur in the book. Indeed, the word 'delta' is no where to be found. Evidentally any time a planetary bombardment is mentioned in all the EU, they assume it's a Base Delta Zero - yet the only place that I've ever seen the term actually come up is a obscure Star Wars Technical Journal article about 25 years old.
VotF does talk about three Star Destroyers attempting to attack Bothawui - planning to have someone sabotage one of the planetary shield generators, then bombard the city it was protecting and do as much damage to Bothawui through that hole that they can...
In the novel an Imperial strike team gets aboard a Ishori war cruiser, gets its hands on a turbolaser cluster, and is specifically said to fire eight TL blasts into a Bothawui city.
Based on Saxton's figures, it's hard to imagine anything being left after that - gigaton explosions, right? Even if the city superstructure was incredibly tough, that level of explosion would flash fry the air and burn every living beings lungs out.
The novel says the city is on fire and Han asks how badly it's been hit - an interesting question if the equivalent of a thousand nuclear weapons just went off over the city.
Later on Leia says 'no serious damage has been done to either side' at that point in the battle - after the eight TL shots have hit the capital city.
All sorts of evidence pointing to far less power than supposed by some of the fans, pretty much throughout the books and movies.
I do think the first criteria should be fun. Scaling would be necessary, and I have been considering 1 AD per 2 Turbolasers, and 1 ion dice per 4 ion cannons.
This prevents bucket o'dice syndrome, and prevents Star Wars ships being too uber compared to B5 ships.
The next question is range, which my provisional setting of turbolasers at 15 and heavy turbolasers at 20 may be too conservative. I'm now leaning more towards 20 and 25. This gives a ISD a 10AD 25 range forward battery, and then it rolls 5 ion dice, which if they hit cause automatic crits.
The next question is special rules. Ion cannons should be AP or possibly super AP. Turbolasers and heavy turbolasers are a good candidate for AP and heavy turbolasers are a candidate for double damage.
Shields are more problematic. The simplest solution is to have them as a rechargable damage track. If this is the case an incoming hit simply crosses one box off, two if it is AP or double damage, three if it is super AP or triple damage. However that means beams quickly take down shields.
This will require some serious thought to create a good balanced mechanic. I'm open to suggestions, and currently waiting on SFOS for additional rules to expand the playing field for conversions.
But I would pick play balance and fun over the quagmire of realism involved in Star Wars technical specs, which change from the film, to the RPG, to previous wargames, to the WEG RPG, to the technical manuals, to the two defunct Decipher CCGs.
Given Lucas and his patchy approach to the EU (either completely ignoring or slavishly including it see the crappy cgi version of star wars, and say yay for mildly comical flying droids) at some point you just have to bite the bullet, admit there is no strict canon and go for broke.
Even with B5 you have to just admit the same with some things.
This prevents bucket o'dice syndrome, and prevents Star Wars ships being too uber compared to B5 ships.
The next question is range, which my provisional setting of turbolasers at 15 and heavy turbolasers at 20 may be too conservative. I'm now leaning more towards 20 and 25. This gives a ISD a 10AD 25 range forward battery, and then it rolls 5 ion dice, which if they hit cause automatic crits.
The next question is special rules. Ion cannons should be AP or possibly super AP. Turbolasers and heavy turbolasers are a good candidate for AP and heavy turbolasers are a candidate for double damage.
Shields are more problematic. The simplest solution is to have them as a rechargable damage track. If this is the case an incoming hit simply crosses one box off, two if it is AP or double damage, three if it is super AP or triple damage. However that means beams quickly take down shields.
This will require some serious thought to create a good balanced mechanic. I'm open to suggestions, and currently waiting on SFOS for additional rules to expand the playing field for conversions.
But I would pick play balance and fun over the quagmire of realism involved in Star Wars technical specs, which change from the film, to the RPG, to previous wargames, to the WEG RPG, to the technical manuals, to the two defunct Decipher CCGs.
Given Lucas and his patchy approach to the EU (either completely ignoring or slavishly including it see the crappy cgi version of star wars, and say yay for mildly comical flying droids) at some point you just have to bite the bullet, admit there is no strict canon and go for broke.
Even with B5 you have to just admit the same with some things.
LOL - well, B5 isn't exactly great at hard science either - it's a fantastic setting in of itself, with Telepaths, Hyperdrive, 'technomages', and the Ancients having godlike powers.
Just think it's funny that lots of pro-uber Star Wars fans like to point out the Base Delta Zero as an example of overwhelming Star Wars firepower - but it doesn't actually seem to exist in any Star Wars novel, game, comic or movie.
Personally, I think Star Wars tech and Shadow/Vorlon tech is on par - in terms of ships capabilities (Ancients have lots of other toys at their disposal). Which makes them powerful as all hell, but not unbeatable - we see Sheridan and company make life for Ancients quite uncomfortable in the B5 series, though obviously they are at a disadvantage tech wise.
I can't see a Sharlin for exaple taking on an ISD on an even basis - but I could see two of them probably getting the best of it.
But there's no 'truth' to find here, just individuals opinions. But that's what makes forums like these fun! LOL.
Just think it's funny that lots of pro-uber Star Wars fans like to point out the Base Delta Zero as an example of overwhelming Star Wars firepower - but it doesn't actually seem to exist in any Star Wars novel, game, comic or movie.
Personally, I think Star Wars tech and Shadow/Vorlon tech is on par - in terms of ships capabilities (Ancients have lots of other toys at their disposal). Which makes them powerful as all hell, but not unbeatable - we see Sheridan and company make life for Ancients quite uncomfortable in the B5 series, though obviously they are at a disadvantage tech wise.
I can't see a Sharlin for exaple taking on an ISD on an even basis - but I could see two of them probably getting the best of it.
But there's no 'truth' to find here, just individuals opinions. But that's what makes forums like these fun! LOL.
Ben,
Good post, I agree with all those points. Yeah, the Star Wars stats tend to jump around quite a bit depending on whose doing the publishing. I still have to laugh when I see the specs on the Trade Federation Battleships holding thousands of fighters and support ships. Did they actually SEE the movie?
The shield mechanic is the one I find difficult - the problem being the armor mechanic in ACTA resolves damage, so if we assume a 0 armor roll, then damage to shields comes at a MUCH faster rate than damage to ships and systems.
Though I suppose without inherent critical hits that could balance out. Guess it's easier to do an absorption shield than I thought. Shield values would be pretty impressive then - in the movies it seems that the shields can take a pounding, but once they go down the ships can blow up pretty quickly.
I like my Wars ships like in the movies - cap ships are big, lumbering brutes that aren't very maneuverable and go to point blank range for broadside to broadside fire. That's the impression I got in both Endor and Coruscant battle scenes.
Good post, I agree with all those points. Yeah, the Star Wars stats tend to jump around quite a bit depending on whose doing the publishing. I still have to laugh when I see the specs on the Trade Federation Battleships holding thousands of fighters and support ships. Did they actually SEE the movie?
The shield mechanic is the one I find difficult - the problem being the armor mechanic in ACTA resolves damage, so if we assume a 0 armor roll, then damage to shields comes at a MUCH faster rate than damage to ships and systems.
Though I suppose without inherent critical hits that could balance out. Guess it's easier to do an absorption shield than I thought. Shield values would be pretty impressive then - in the movies it seems that the shields can take a pounding, but once they go down the ships can blow up pretty quickly.
I like my Wars ships like in the movies - cap ships are big, lumbering brutes that aren't very maneuverable and go to point blank range for broadside to broadside fire. That's the impression I got in both Endor and Coruscant battle scenes.
I suppose for a shield mechanic you can add in a Shield track (like Damage and Crew) or add it in as an extension of the Damage track . Shields could then have a 'Self-Repair'. Once the shield track is depleated damage hits the ship and crew as normal.
A bit of minor re-jigging of the critical hit tables should then be able to pull off Grey Leader's Super Star Destroyers stunt form RotJ and provide an chance to damage and destroy shield units.
A bit of minor re-jigging of the critical hit tables should then be able to pull off Grey Leader's Super Star Destroyers stunt form RotJ and provide an chance to damage and destroy shield units.
This is how I was planning on it. However one possibility may be to have an armour threshold.
I know we had this problem with the B5W conversion. Should shields be the equivalent of hull 4? Bear in mind this is because we are simulating the possibility of missing, which is factored into the attack dice in ACTA but seperated in VAS and B5W.
This does give the possibility of basing a conversion on VAS rather than ACTA.
I know we had this problem with the B5W conversion. Should shields be the equivalent of hull 4? Bear in mind this is because we are simulating the possibility of missing, which is factored into the attack dice in ACTA but seperated in VAS and B5W.
This does give the possibility of basing a conversion on VAS rather than ACTA.
One ACTA argument could be AP/Super AP these weapons are powerful, able to pierce the heavy armour of starships to deal damage. If shields provide a Hull 4 while active, then AP/Super AP weapons would get quite an advantage.
Under VaS with the seperate To Hit and Armour rolls, a mechanic about shields providing 'Armour 4' should be easy to implement without changing the To Hit roll. This may be a better route to explore.
Under VaS with the seperate To Hit and Armour rolls, a mechanic about shields providing 'Armour 4' should be easy to implement without changing the To Hit roll. This may be a better route to explore.
TenaciousB
Mongoose
Locutus9956 said:Guys can we please not start this here, Ive seen some horrifiic forums where this sort of argument just gets ludicrous.
Trying to compare Star Wars 'science' to any other sci-fi is rediculous at best and damn stupid most of the rest of the time.
Star Wars is not even sci-fi in my opinion its a Fantasy film in space. Now Im not saying Star Trek or even B5 are soooooo amazingly realistic but simply put I get really annoyed when people start saying things like 'star wars ships are better cos they can kill anything in one shot, its obvious from that special effects shot that they have 90 bazillion gigawatts of power in every gun...'.
Star Wars is basically, ludicrous but its fun and looks cool and has great characters so people love it (myself included). Trying to compare it to (for lack of a better term) 'serious' sci fi just leads to silly pointless flame wars so lets just leave it and get back to the point of this thread, ie lets make a good star wars mod for ACTA
STAR WARS IS NOT SCI-FI?
New one on me - check out the genre here, dude - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/
Seems your opinion is just SLIGHTLY wrong :wink:
And the best way to avoid flame wars is to not throw the first stone, and make comments like this:
You're only gonna piss off the Star Wars fanbois with comments like that.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Oh well IMDB says otherwise and theyre all knowing [/sarcasm]
Sci Fi = SCIENCE fiction
Show me where the science part comes into Star Wars exactly?
Cases in point 1: WW2 dogfights in space
Case in point 2: Lightsaber blades are made of 'pure energy' which is..... what exactly?
Case in point 3: The force. Enough said. Star Wars is a fairy tale in space. This is not to say it isnt still great but it's hardly the basis to start making silly claims about technologies. Frankly I think its a bit on the silly side to try and derive scientific fact about sci fi tech from ANYHTING like that including B5 etc but I digress.
Sci Fi = SCIENCE fiction
Show me where the science part comes into Star Wars exactly?
Cases in point 1: WW2 dogfights in space
Case in point 2: Lightsaber blades are made of 'pure energy' which is..... what exactly?
Case in point 3: The force. Enough said. Star Wars is a fairy tale in space. This is not to say it isnt still great but it's hardly the basis to start making silly claims about technologies. Frankly I think its a bit on the silly side to try and derive scientific fact about sci fi tech from ANYHTING like that including B5 etc but I digress.
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Anyway Star Wars is set long long ago from now apparently...
So by the time they're in the same period as B5 or Star Trek they would be more advanced than they are in the films :lol:
But on that note I will say that my pet hate in Sci-Fi is cross-overs, I hate them with a passion.
Back in my B5W days when I designed some ships from other Sci-Fi series they were only ever balanced against each other (to the extent that they were balanced at all that is...) never against any of the other B5W stuff.
Oops I seem to have gone topic a little there...
Nick
So by the time they're in the same period as B5 or Star Trek they would be more advanced than they are in the films :lol:
But on that note I will say that my pet hate in Sci-Fi is cross-overs, I hate them with a passion.
Back in my B5W days when I designed some ships from other Sci-Fi series they were only ever balanced against each other (to the extent that they were balanced at all that is...) never against any of the other B5W stuff.
Oops I seem to have gone topic a little there...
Nick
TenaciousB
Mongoose
Locutus9956 said:
Case 1 - Robots and artificial intelligence.
Case 2 - Artificial limb replacements.
Probably more, and I'm sure more will come to me. :wink:
