Minbari Loses

[hassanisabbah]

Yes but you would assume that the Minbari would also have atmospheric vessels.

They don't It's a unique position that the EA has with regards Space Fighters and Atmospheric fighters. Everyone else (pretty much) has one design that does both jobs, the EA kept the distinction between the two roles primarily because until the Thunderbolt, their transatmospheric fighters sucked. The Starfury rocks because it is designed to be a space superiority fighter pure and simple.

Er isn't the Starfury exactly the wrong shape to operate in an Atmosphere - and besides wouldn't the much lower cost and requirements of atmospheric vessels mean they would have such craft (or do they just have fleets of Sharlin and Merchant ships to move people about the surface, and provide air defence.

Come on thats b*ll*cks AoG and you know it. Either that or vessels in other races atmospheres can travel at over 7 miles per second, the speed required to break gravity (as they are all Spacecraft), with total control (to avoid hitting other craft that presumably fulfilling aerospace duty). Try shooting that thing down or tracking it manually (or even picking it up on scanners).

Manual targeting is rare in ariel combat even today,

There's a difference between manual targetting and visual targetting. Yes but given that a missile system is needs to lock on to track a target itself, presumably the technology still applies. Otherwise you have to engage at very close range....

Also theres the scanner/radar problem, if you can't pick up an aircraft, its going to hit you before you know its there (or gone to be correct).

Not quite. You'll know they're there, just not exactly where they are. The Minbari jammer system isn't a concealment technology, it merely makes it impossible to determine the exact position of the craft.[/quote]

I did know that, I did forget. Still it causes a problem for interceptors, a mile or two is a long distance to be out by. However you are never going to shoot down anything that theoretically can travel at 7 miles per second, or keep track of it.

 

[frobisher]

Er isn't the Starfury exactly the wrong shape to operate in an Atmosphere - and besides wouldn't the much lower cost and requirements of atmospheric vessels mean they would have such craft (or do they just have fleets of Sharlin and Merchant ships to move people about the surface, and provide air defence.

The Aurora or standard Starfury is non atmospheric as stated in the show. The Thunderbolt is the first Starfury to be atmospheric capable according to Sheriden in "Ship of Tears", also Ivanova states that the Starfuries escorting the shuttle in "A Voice In the Wilderness" can't follow the shuttle into the atmosphere.

As it stands, the Starfury has no lifting or control surfaces by any stretch of the imagination. The Narn Frazi does, the Minbari Nial doesn't need them, and the Centauri Sentri is just one big wing.

Come on thats b*ll*cks AoG and you know it. Either that or vessels in other races atmospheres can travel at over 7 miles per second, the speed required to break gravity (as they are all Spacecraft), with total control (to avoid hitting other craft that presumably fulfilling aerospace duty). Try shooting that thing down or tracking it manually (or even picking it up on scanners).

You'll find that 25,000mph isn't actually attained within the atmosphere (if you want to know what the effects of something travelling at that velocity in atmosphere is like, try looking at Tunguska...)

The Saturn 5 launch system, which did acheive this escape velocity "only" had a peak acceleration of 4g, which is less than modern jet fighters can manage. The difference was that it maintained this acceleration for quite a while, certainly longer than jet could.

Now the Saturn 5 had to go (pretty much) straight up due to fuel constraints, an aerodynamic craft with a vastly superior drive system doesn't have to bother, and can reach the atmospheric limits at a more leisurely (and fuel efficent) pace, relying upon aerodynamic lift to do most of the hard work.

The other thing is, the fighters aren't in general trying to leave orbit, but to obtain one, and they have the luxury of a powered orbit if they wish (NASA doesn't have that luxury as our technology isn't up to it yet).

 

[hassanisabbah]

Ah what I was trying to get at was the impracticality of using the same fleet of craft for aerospace defence and space defence, and that the engines on them alone would justify both fleets.

A ship needs to hit 4g/7 Miles at it apex to leave orbit in a straight line. That however would mean that every flight vessel of a race would be capable of such speeds (if they were all space capable) - and spacecraft do seem to be quite big, where as a aerospace fighter doesn't have to be.

It was a point that if ships could travel through atmospheres, they would be capable of dangerous speeds, in order to get back out again. :roll:

 

[Garibaldi2257]

Ok, while I realize that Top Gun is an old movie, it still has an application to the B5 universe:

The EF has dedicated aircraft, wouldn't it follow that they have schools dedicated to training pilots for those aircraft.

Now, if you're going to train pilots, you want them to be the best they possibly can be.

Now, take Top Gun as a good example (the school actually exists), where fighter pilots are trained in dogfighting. Pilots trained specifically for flight in an atmosphere are going to be better in the atmosphere than pilots trained for spaceflight.

Assume that the minbari pilots are trained for spaceflight, with minimal atmospheric training, as the Nial is primarily a space fighter.

So, if EF has dedicated atmospheric pilots trained at a 'Top Gun' school, then they're going to be extremely good at dogfighting, which is close range combat. Firing guns doesn't require an electronic lock, it requires a visual lock, so Minbari stealth technology won't help against visual locks.

Also, manual/visual targetting is actually used a lot, it's cheaper to fire off a few hundred rounds from a 20 mm machine gun than it is to fire missiles.

 

[El Cid]

Ok, while I realize that Top Gun is an old movie, it still has an application to the B5 universe:

<SNIP>

Now, take Top Gun as a good example (the school actually exists), where fighter pilots are trained in dogfighting. Pilots trained specifically for flight in an atmosphere are going to be better in the atmosphere than pilots trained for spaceflight.

Assume that the minbari pilots are trained for spaceflight, with minimal atmospheric training, as the Nial is primarily a space fighter.

So, if EF has dedicated atmospheric pilots trained at a 'Top Gun' school, then they're going to be extremely good at dogfighting, which is close range combat. Firing guns doesn't require an electronic lock, it requires a visual lock, so Minbari stealth technology won't help against visual locks.

Also, manual/visual targetting is actually used a lot, it's cheaper to fire off a few hundred rounds from a 20 mm machine gun than it is to fire missiles.

While I agree with most of your comments, I disagree with ". . . Firing guns doesn't require an electronic lock, it requires a visual lock, so Minbari stealth technology won't help against visual locks." In all the movies I've seen, the pilots get a electronic lock before they fire their guns. Now, I would agree that you can fire the guns w/o an electronic lock but that would be less efficient than with the electronic lock which the Minbari pilot would still be using.

Sidney

 

[hassanisabbah]

Less than 10% of American Pilots attend the Top Gun School, and Dogfighting is not a generally heavy area in aircraft combat, given that the most common range of engagement is going to be 5 miles. Dogfighting is exceptionally close range - Still meaning the enemy is going to have a field day as you close to range.

The question is why would the Minbari (or anyother race) not have people trained in atmospheric conditions or seperate atmosopheric vehicles, yet have a space fleet and seperate ground forces.

Ok theres cannon, JMS says so, but it doesn't make an iota of sense.

 

[mdraconis]

The only plausible explanation I can give to your question hassanisabbah is that the various alien races may have very different air, land, space warfare doctrines. Some alien races may emphasise space warfare and planetary bombardment, like the Centauri, and only use ground forces for mop-up/holding actions. That would not require dedicated atmospheric craft operations or intense training. Any heavy resistance could be crushed by orbital bombardment then mopped up by ground forces. Plus, I would think that ground vehicles and even the average grunt could be armed with surface to air missiles and air defense artillery to shoot down enemy aircraft.

For example, the Coalition Forces during Desert Storm, used various techniques (not just aircraft) to soften up Iraqi air defenses and air forces with missiles. The next logical step, due to the technology utilized in Babylon 5, could have the capital ships perform the same function. Just take the "Star Wars" defense program to the Nth degree. If the "modern" ships of B5 can target fast moving spacefighters, an atmospheric fighter will have no chance. Unless there are restrictions imposed by game mechanics, an energy weapon will not be affected by an atmosphere. With the sensor capability and weaponry of B5 starships, I am suprised that any atmospheric craft exist at all. Except for "dropships" (trans-atmospheric craft) of course.

Also as I remember, in the episode Gropos the only aircraft seen was the Frigga Assault Craft and maybe the Valkrie Gunship. There were no enemy aircraft. The only air kill was from surface-to-air ADA.

So with that, it is my opinion that intensive atmospheric training is given to EA pilots due to the nature of their tactical doctrine. Their pilots are expected to fly into atmospheric combat in close quarters to the enemy. Where as other races may not feel the need to train their pilots for this kind of warfare. It is not known yet if any of the other races even have trans-atmospheric craft other than assault craft (troop carriers/dropships/assault shuttles). And with a race as advanced as the Minbari, it is unlikely that the still have any pure atmospheric craft in existence. Earth may be the only race left with airplanes.

 

[hassanisabbah]

In true tradition of thinking about it after the event, I came up with the conclusion that the Minbari probably do have atmospheric flyers on their own worlds, just they probably don't transport them due to the fact they'd take up more room on a vessel than their use justified, especially considering that the fighter (I never remember how to spell it) could do the job adequately.

Anyone I pissed off whilst knocking the idea, sorry about that, it just took a while to think round it.... :roll:

 

[Garibaldi2257]

The amount of room used up is a good point, another good question is, how would they get them into the atmosphere? Starcraft are normally not atmospheric, at least those large enough to hold enough aircraft to make a difference.

 

[frobisher]

The amount of room used up is a good point, another good question is, how would they get them into the atmosphere? Starcraft are normally not atmospheric, at least those large enough to hold enough aircraft to make a difference.

The EA Factbook relates that the Condor Troop Transport can carry aircraft/VTOLs, but in a knocked-down state.

Some of the more advanced races do (or at least did under B5W) have some slightly larger atmosphheric spacecraft, but not too much bigger.

 

[Garibaldi2257]

Given that I don't have the EA Factbook, or any of the other books, I'm just going off of logic and what was canon before the game.

 

[Anonymous]

I have read through this entire thread and I think I have to add my two cents here as well.

I'm not really gonna touch the 'fact' that the Minbari whooped the EA fleets and sufferred relatively little losses in comparison. That has pretty much been established, and I'll leave it to others to argue specific casualty figures.

Now, let's get into the juicy part, that of planetary assaults. For this I'll start at the top of the equation.

Securing the Beach Head: This was probably the least painful part of the operation for the Minbari as they would only need to gain space superiority at the area of insertion. The Minbari are most definitely capable of this phase. The technology gap would be most apparent here with their fleets able to bring their full power to bear. Minbari losses at this point would be little to none.

Insertion: Here is where we see the assault forces disembark from their transport vessels and begin descent through the atmosphere. Their entry into the atmosphere here is going to leave them vulnerable and very, very detectable to any Air-Defense assets. The heat corona from their entry will probably completely nulligy the effects of their jammers allowing ground based weaponry, atmospheric craft, and all other battlefied systems to engage them with great proficiency. This will be a very painful but probably very shortlived strike as the Minbari fleet vessels begin targeting the Earther's Air-Defense assets. Losses could very well be staggering at this point, dependent on the ability of the ground commander to concentrate his assets at the point of insertion.
-Note to those thinking that it would be easy for the Minbari to detect and destroy said Air-Defense systems before insertion; this is nowhere as easy as it sounds if the defender leaves his active systems off until he needs to engage his radar. As well, the defender can minimize the effect of orbital fire by setting his Early Warning Radars up to feed information to his weapon systems. This way those radar sites will be targeted instead of the Air-Defense systems.

Securing the Beach: No Marine is ever more vulnerable then when he is disembarking his boat while trying to find cover, locate the enemy, and keep track of his fellows, all at the same time. Expect even more casualties against the Minbari here as the EA Commander is now able to bring to bear several different combat systems. (Remember "Saving Private Ryan" when they were storming the beach) Artillery will come into its own here, as I'm sure the targeting and delivery systems have progressed quite a bit in the two centuries of development between present day and the B5 timeline. As well you may see the employment of Armor and Mechanized Infantry to add direct fires to the mix, and, if available, you might even see the use of CAS (Close Air Support).
The Minbari fleet will be able to bring to bear some of its weaponry once they have located the source of the artillery, but it's effectiveness would have to depend on the artillery's capabity to either displace after firing or even fire on the move. This will help to lessen the effects of the Minbari counterbattery. The fleet will be hard pressed to help the individual Minbari soldier as orbital bombardment on a location your troops are trying to occupy just doesn't sound like a good idea. So, depending on the level of commitment to the 'beach', Minbari losses here could be high.
-Note, within this phase all fire will be directed by someone on ground with the old MK-1 EYEBALL. It never hurts to have a Forward Observer directing the artillery while a Forward Air Controller directs the aircraft. All I gotta say is that is sucks to be a Minbari in the kill sack.

Exploitaion: Here is where we see the Minbari troopers begin to push forward towards their objectives once the 'beach' has been cleared of enemy opposition. The level of resistance at this point depends on how layered a defense the Earth Commander was able to establish. Whether or not he was able to emplace ambush sites along the routes of attack the Minbari will use and if he decided to leave a flanking force in place to strike once the Minbari moved past. Here is where the Earthforce numbers will become telling. However, too much movement of ground troops will more than likely be detected, and large formations can expect to be attacked by either Nials, armor, or even orbital fire. Stealth and subtlety will be a key to defending against the Minbari advance. So losses for the Minbari here will almost completely depend on the millions of variables that are inherent in an operation like this. However, they will probably be on the low end as the Minbari commander will now be able to concentrate his forces and establish a strong presence in his area.

Attack on Objective: This is gonna be the meatgrinder. It's where the Minbari are going to be attacking the main defensive position held by the Earthforce. It will more than likely be hardened to protect against orbital bombardment and will need to be cleaned out by the infantry. Booby traps and bottle necks will be the name of the game for the defenders while speed of penetration and bloody persistance will be the aim of the attackers. Urban warfare at its ugliest here folks. The Minbari will have an advantage here becuase of their generally increased strength and speed, but that only takes you so far against a PPG, autoshotgun, or whatever crew served weapon happens to be spitting death at you. What will get them through the day will be their individual level of training imparted on each Minbari soldier. Casualties on both sides will be high here.

Guerilla Operations/Mopup: This is what you are going to see once the focal point of the Earthforce defense has been neutralized. What will make this even worse for the Minbari is the feeling among the local population that they are going to be exterminated. So every single able-bodied human is going to go down fighting if they can. They may not take a lot of Minbari with them, but they will certainly try.

Here are some other things to pay attention to when you are talking about Earth vs Minbari ground combat.

Sensors: They may have us beat their too, but it is still going to be a hell of a lot harder to pick targets out from orbit when you have to deal with weather conditions as well as ground clutter. Now, once something begins to emit some clear signal (ie. radio, strong power, etc.) it will be a lot easier to pick out of the woodwork. Unless of course some smart cookie placed it in an area where that kind of reading is present in large amounts.

Experience vs Training: Yes, the Minbari have a crapload more training on the individual soldier, but (and it was stated earlier) the Earthforce has a tradition of practical experience that goes back thousands of years. Most recently the ground campaigns against the Dilgar which give the leaders a central core of knowledge that is immensely valuable. Earth forces are trained to fight an 'amphibious' battle if you will. They are meant to be deployed from space to ground and as a result they know how to fight against it.

Technology Gap: You don't have to have the biggest stick in the yard to bash someone's head in. I know I'd certainly like to have the shiniest new weapon to defend myself with, but hey, there are ways in which you can limit the effectiveness of someone's technology, and I am fairly certain that the GROPOs in Earthforce quickly came up with ways to lessen the Minbari advantages.


OK, OK, I'm all done now. So let me know what exceptions you have to this, and we'll hash 'em out.

 

[Goldritter]

Don´t forgett the Minbari are "long-range" fighters.
In Space as on Ground they use long range fire.
In Space you can see "unlimited" long, but on Ground you can see maximal to the horizont, if there are no hills, woods, ...
And so, you have no real long range advantage on the Ground.

 

[Lancer 1]

In all fights terrain will dictate tactics. Even in space, problem there is that there is very little terrain relative to the size of the battlefield. Useful example would be of Sheridan using the asteroid belt as cover to force the Black Star to close to investigate.

 

[hassanisabbah]

Don´t forgett the Minbari are "long-range" fighters.
In Space as on Ground they use long range fire.
In Space you can see "unlimited" long, but on Ground you can see maximal to the horizont, if there are no hills, woods, ...
And so, you have no real long range advantage on the Ground.

Presumably though you could strike from the atmosphere (or even space) levels against ground based targets (purely as a sensible extention of the long range tactic and technology), particually via missile or projectile, but possibly via beam weapons as well (specifically via a specially designed weapon for such purposes)

Long Range Artillary and air strikes usually decides the outcome of a battle prior to troop engagement, especially in situations where the enemy are a) not concerned about civilian casualities b) technological superior (ie MOAB vs 108mm Howitzer). Note that vehicles are exceptionally vulnerable to long range strike by air or missile.

 

[Lancer 1]

I agree completely, the only issue is finding the targets in order to kill them, and being able to penetrate whatever defense they have built in order to keep such orbital bombardment at bay.

 

[Goldritter]

I´ve only see two orbital bombartmends in Babylon5. The Centauri Mass Driver attack on Narn Homeworld and the Narn/Drazi attack on Centauri Prime.

The Narn/Drazi uses theri biggest Guns and attack only cities, so I think, that it´s difficult to make a orbital attack in Babylon 5.

For example :
Clouds and atmosphere can dissipate "low energy" Ship weapons, and so only your "biggest/stongest" Weapons can have a chance to deliver enough energy from orbit to ground to do enough damage. (Missiles and Bombs are different of course.)
And even a few (milli) degrees in the firing angle can have a devastating result a few kilometres away from the gunbarrel.
So, if you have not a good reckognise Unit on the Ground and not a good Gunner/Computer Programm you can hit your own troops as easily as the enemy.

 

[El Cid]

Any planet which has a breathable atmosphere would be favorable for the defender. Those worlds and colonies which must maintain a life support system would be very vulnerable to losing their power and/or life support systems.

Extensive underground colonies would be vulnerable to deep penetration bombs and heavy explosions which could cause cave-ins but better off than surface domes which could easily be taken out with a few attacks.

 

[hassanisabbah]

My basic presumption is this; an alien race that develops the technology to fight wars in space, will not be long in developing weapons that can hit surface targets and work in an atmosphere. Targeting isn't a problem, given the presumable ranges space combat take place at (miles rather than thousands of miles).

If the centari have come up with a mass driver, then surely the minbari have some kind of orbit to surface weapons? Abiet not as harsh as the Mass Driver? As before any landing of troops could be attempted the air defence would need to be eliminated (and if Minbari Fighters double as aircraft, wouldn't their energy weapons need to be atmosphere proof)

 

[frobisher]

(and if Minbari Fighters double as aircraft, wouldn't their energy weapons need to be atmosphere proof)

It's not a matter of being atmosphere proof as such, but their interactions with it.

The fusion guns on the Nial will work fine, but their effective range would be less than outwith an atmosphere as the "warhead" degrades by moving through the denser medium and interacting with it. Ditto particle and plasma weapons.

Lasers get diffused (and hence less effective with range), and become less effective.

The net effect is that you'd need to be closer than you would outside an atmosphere.

The same intervening atmosphere is probably beneficial to rail guns and mass drivers over certain distances through atmosphere due to frictional heating and hence vapourisation of the projectile (more of a fireball effect than a bullet).

The Shadow Molecular Slicers don't seem to care much about atmosphere though