Military ships and crew

[Sigtrygg]

So when some question the rules the reply is "those are the rules now, shut up and accept it" but when others find oddities it is a case of "this is how it works in the real world" and "this is how it works in previous editions"...

Either accept the rules as written or accept older versions are still usable and MgT is flawed. Or just house rule.

 

[MarcusIII]

Or just house rule.

When I run into an illogic in the rules I carefully ponder it and turn it over in my mind until sure, then I house rule. The original Mongoose rules seemed, for the most part solid. 2nd edition is less well fitted together is th only term I can think of.

 

[swordtart]

So when some question the rules the reply is "those are the rules now, shut up and accept it" but when others find oddities it is a case of "this is how it works in the real world" and "this is how it works in previous editions"...

Either accept the rules as written or accept older versions are still usable and MgT is flawed. Or just house rule.

To be honest I often find myself flip flopping.

I prefer to use rules RAW as that requires the least effort and negotiation with players. Once you start house ruling then players also expect to renegotiate rules as you go along, this can be good in moderation but it can also lead to rules discussions instead of playing sessions.

Sometimes the RAW is inconsistent with other rules or commonly accepted canon. Then I have to eyeball it and make a decision. Hopefully my players won't even question it (nine times out of ten it is a background issue and they don't have access to the spreadsheet for that particular robot or ship so won't notice it is Cr500 more than it should be). Not everything should be fully investigable by players or their characters. Sometimes a garage overcharges you or does unnecessary work and you don't find out as life isn't 100% deterministic. Such is life.

Sometimes I will even find myself arguing against a point I made in another argument. This is not me just being contrary (though I have a hat in that size too), it is likely I have just noticed an inconsistency I didn't before or have had a consequence pointed out that I hadn't previously considered. The discussion is more important than the consensus (though sometimes it's nice to have your interpretation validated by others). Changing your mind in light of new evidence is an appropriate response in a science fiction game. It is fiction, but scientific method should be at the heart of it including rule validation.

Where it all comes unstuck is where people have opinions that are setting specific. It is important to their setting that the rule is accepted, but if you are not using that setting then it is just a discussion point. Many components are in the game for example that break the TI setting, or disagree with previous canon. That can create challenges if a player bases some important decision on their understanding of the setting and the referee has a different take on it.

Sometimes I regret underpinning my game with MGT2 vs other versions of Traveller. But then I did that with every other version of Traveller I tried as well. CT is too simplistic, MegaTraveller too complex, Traveller 5 isn't even a game etc. They are games and people are paid to create content (and are not necessarily omniscient wrt canon). If it is all just the same as last time you might as well just buy the old stuff.

 

[Condottiere]

Crewing has a great deal more latitude, since since there are options such as automation, and drones.

Understaffing works within a specific time window, until deterioration, in whatever, occurs.

Overstaffing works as well, as long as life support is sufficient.

 

[tytalan]

So when some question the rules the reply is "those are the rules now, shut up and accept it" but when others find oddities it is a case of "this is how it works in the real world" and "this is how it works in previous editions"...

Either accept the rules as written or accept older versions are still usable and MgT is flawed. Or just house rule.

Except in cases like this where the rules counter dictates themselves than you make a decision but it’s also good to let mongoose know so they can fix it.

The problem with RAW is that sometimes they counter dictate themselves, they don’t cover something, or your players break them. There has got to be a point where we accept that all rules systems are flawed and common sense must be applied. Just repeating that the rules say this is showing a lack of understanding this concept.

 

[phavoc]

So when some question the rules the reply is "those are the rules now, shut up and accept it" but when others find oddities it is a case of "this is how it works in the real world" and "this is how it works in previous editions"...

Either accept the rules as written or accept older versions are still usable and MgT is flawed. Or just house rule.

"Either accept the rules as written or accept older versions are still usable and MgT is flawed. Or just house rule." All reasonable options.

However, the point of purchasing rules from a publisher is so you don't have to create your own house rules for things. Same goes for settings and adventures - people buy these things so they don't have to create it all their self.

When their is discordance in the rules it should be pointed out. When there are errors in the rules, or typo's or wrong table of contents in the manuals, it should be pointed out. If we are all here to clap with one hand at how wonderful things are it would be a very useless message board. And the publisher would receive on useful feedback on what their customers like/dislike/are upset by except when their sales drop and they go out of business.

Feedback is great. USEFUL feedback is priceless.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There are no problems with the rules with this regard. The rules say ship's troops and marines are not crew. Accept the rule and move on. Or house rule.
But the rule book will not change until the next revised updated revision with new cover, and I will lay money on the table that something will be introduced that changes things unexpectedly (looking at you change to core rule book bridge table that isn't applied to the ship designs in the same book...)

 

[phavoc]

There are no problems with the rules with this regard. The rules say ship's troops and marines are not crew. Accept the rule and move on. Or house rule.
But the rule book will not change until the next revised updated revision with new cover, and I will lay money on the table that something will be introduced that changes things unexpectedly (looking at you change to core rule book bridge table that isn't applied to the ship designs in the same book...)

I believe pointing these things out is how things get corrected in the first place. I'm not sure why you feel the need to discourage others from posting their opinions. Disagreement is one thing, actively trying to dissuade someone from offering an opinion is another.

Unless and until a revision of the book is published, I believe it is as you have stated - the rule change in the latest version will not change. I'm sorry you feel that there is an issue in pointing out that it's a poorly written rule. I'll continue to do so where I think it's appropriate. As a customer I have a bookshelf full of reasons why my opinion matters as much as yours, or anyone else's.

 

[long-jon]

Just a thought. Highguard section of Deepnight Revelation: The Far Side of Nowhere has a bit about bulk accommodation if I remember correctly.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Just a thought. Highguard section of Deepnight Revelation: The Far Side of Nowhere has a bit about bulk accommodation if I remember correctly.

Now we'll never be able to stop @mavikfelna. "It puts the lotion on its skin, or we use the hose."

 

[Condottiere]

Easiest is attaching hammocks to the corridors' ceilings.

And sleeping bags on the floor.

That would be Premium Economy, and Basic Economy.

But, you still have to figure out life support.

 

[MarcusIII]

But, you still have to figure out life support.

Fast drug

 

[Condottiere]

1. Going by Dumarest, a lot of safety precautions would be required, if up and about.

2. If knocked out for the duration, something rather more stable than hammocks or sleeping bags.

 

[MarcusIII]

IMTU they stack 30 to a stateroom at Cr500 per person and it's a 3 hour trip subjective time. gravity is turned down. They know not to get up before the antidote is given. Works for everyone.

 

[Condottiere]

Another consideration is dosage.

The original drug is timed at sixty days.

It would have to be recalibrated for, say, ten days.

 

[MarcusIII]

Another consideration is dosage.

The original drug is timed at sixty days.

It would have to be recalibrated for, say, ten days.

There is fast drug antidote. You give it whenever you want to end the effect. That's why people are moved this way IMTU. KCr15 for each stateroom

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You don't have to follow that interpretation, but you equally don't have to keep yelling from the roof tops that people who do are wrong and are breaking the rules.

You can do whatever you wish, as I have repeatedly said:

Of course you can house rule anything you like.

If you posting a screen shot of the rule the first time didn't convince us then reposting a third time it won't either.

Didn't convince you that the rule is a rule?


RAW is arbitrary and ultimately not important, but it is the common frame we have.

Of course you can design amazing ships if you don't allocate standard space for crew or other components, but then they are not comparable to the standard published ships, or ships designed by other people.


You can house rule anything you wish, for any reason you like, just call it what it is: a house rule.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Somebody tap AnotherDilbert the needle is stuck, just kidding. But seriously AD you keep posting the same pic of the rule page but you haven’t given us a single real counter argument. Just because RAW says something doesn’t mean it’s right or makes sense.

I have no idea how 57th century starships work, and neither do you. To play in the Traveller frame, the rules is all I have to go by.

RAW says you need one engineer per 35 Dton jump drive. OK, I have no comment, I have no idea how jump drives work.

RAW says, since times immemorial, that crew aboard starships needs 2 Dt space living quarters. OK, I have no comment.


Arguments about how 57th century starships really work are just silly. I don't know, you don't know, and any potential real 57th century spacecraft will not be designed or work even remotely like Traveller...


You can of course house rule anything you like in your game, but that has no bearing on the standard rules, or my game, under my house rules.

 

[Condottiere]

We don 't know how machinery actually works, or needs, in the far future.

We do have a pretty good idea how humans work, or need, in the present.

 

[phavoc]

Easiest is attaching hammocks to the corridors' ceilings.

And sleeping bags on the floor.

That would be Premium Economy, and Basic Economy.

But, you still have to figure out life support.

This is from the Battleship TX, circa 1940. I've visited the ship and in parts of it they had wire-like baskets hanging 5 tall from the ceiling.

They also still had the attachment points for the actual hammocks they used to put up for people to sleep in.

I don't think it's ever been an issue of just how many people you can cram in one place - we know from history what is possible. However the question becomes more of what is practical? Are you going to have highly-trained spacers jammed into the tiniest of areas because you want to cram more stuff on to your ship? Will you be able to get people to join and serve with such conditions? Obviously we know from history that people can and do join with such conditions - though they often aren't happy about it for long stretches.

As has been pointed out many times, spaceships aren't naval ships - and you can't go up on deck to get some fresh air or not feel so cramped below decks. Plus we know as times have changed sailors are less and less willing to live in such cramped conditions because they know things are better.

So... what is the comfortable medium? Players tend to not think of living conditions because they don't have to actually live in them. Morale is not real to them, its' an amorphous concept and/or a dice throw.