Military ships and crew

[tytalan]

Let’s talk about crew! Now I’ve mentioned it a couple of times in my designs but I don’t think I ever broke down my philosophy and why I see it that way.

First we all know that we deal with a lot of legacy in Traveller that’s why we still have X-Boats without maneuver (in LBB you didn’t have the room) and tenders.

Another case of legacy is crew quarters for military and para-military space ships. In the LBB we had one size of Stateroom the classification on rather it was a med or high depended on if you had a steward or not. Also military ship ran the same crew requirements as civilian.

Now fast forward to modern day mongoose Traveller where we literally have 4 different classes of accommodation (barracks 1dt per, med stateroom 4dt 2 per, High 6dt 2 per, and finally luxury 10dt 2 per) but because of legacy we are still using the med Stateroom for military ships. Because of this most military and para-military ships under 5001dt either run less crew than the should or sacrifice some other capability to make up the quarters requirement.

In so many ways this does not make sense since in High Guard we have the tools to correct it. But first before the solution let’s talk about how the military does things, one key military concept is Rank Has Its Privileges and one of the way this is shown in modern naval vessels is in quarters. The enlisted and Jr NCOs live in what’s essentially in barracks with crew getting more space based on their rank. How this breaks down in Traveller is simple
Enlisted and Jr NCO’s would use barracks (about 2/3 the total crew)
Senior NCO’s and Jr Officers would be housed in med Staterooms 2 per
Med Rank officers and the Bosun would get a single med stateroom. Most Adventure class ships this would only be the caption on larger ships it would be the department heads and the bosun.
Captains with the exception of above would get a High stateroom at this rank they would also have their own personal steward.
Flags officers quarters would depend on the size of the ship cruisers and below they would get a High stateroom with the members of their staff sharing mid staterooms. On larger ship the flag officer would get a luxury (often the captain’s quarters would also be a luxury) with his staff using either High or Mid depending on rank.

As I said above implementing this will not only make sense but will allow ships under 5001dt to run full military crew and will allow larger ships to be appropriately upgraded

 

[Terry Mixon]

Let’s talk about crew! Now I’ve mentioned it a couple of times in my designs but I don’t think I ever broke down my philosophy and why I see it that way.

First we all know that we deal with a lot of legacy in Traveller that’s why we still have X-Boats without maneuver (in LBB you didn’t have the room) and tenders.

Another case of legacy is crew quarters for military and para-military space ships. In the LBB we had one size of Stateroom the classification on rather it was a med or high depended on if you had a steward or not. Also military ship ran the same crew requirements as civilian.

Now fast forward to modern day mongoose Traveller where we literally have 4 different classes of accommodation (barracks 1dt per, med stateroom 4dt 2 per, High 6dt 2 per, and finally luxury 10dt 2 per) but because of legacy we are still using the med Stateroom for military ships. Because of this most military and para-military ships under 5001dt either run less crew than the should or sacrifice some other capability to make up the quarters requirement.

In so many ways this does not make sense since in High Guard we have the tools to correct it. But first before the solution let’s talk about how the military does things, one key military concept is Rank Has Its Privileges and one of the way this is shown in modern naval vessels is in quarters. The enlisted and Jr NCOs live in what’s essentially in barracks with crew getting more space based on their rank. How this breaks down in Traveller is simple
Enlisted and Jr NCO’s would use barracks (about 2/3 the total crew)
Senior NCO’s and Jr Officers would be housed in med Staterooms 2 per
Med Rank officers and the Bosun would get a single med stateroom. Most Adventure class ships this would only be the caption on larger ships it would be the department heads and the bosun.
Captains with the exception of above would get a High stateroom at this rank they would also have their own personal steward.
Flags officers quarters would depend on the size of the ship cruisers and below they would get a High stateroom with the members of their staff sharing mid staterooms. On larger ship the flag officer would get a luxury (often the captain’s quarters would also be a luxury) with his staff using either High or Mid depending on rank.

As I said above implementing this will not only make sense but will allow ships under 5001dt to run full military crew and will allow larger ships to be appropriately upgraded

I hearitly agree with this, but even arguing with @MongooseMatt that officers should be in single staterooms was shot down. His view, unless I misremember badly, is that double occupancy is the norm for everyone, with a few Middle Staterooms (3?) for the very highest ranking.

I was going to use the crew calculations for leaders to say those folks were the ones needing single occupancy, though it was for civilian ships. He sounded firm. Personally, I like your idea on the military side and mine on the civilian.

 

[mavikfelna]

My current idea is using the cabin space 1.5 ton quarters for junior crew; the maintenance, gunners, sensor ops and stewards. pilots, engineers and admins share rooms, and department heads and offices get singles. On larger ships, captains and admirals get high or lux and XOs may get high if lux are available for captains/admirals. Marines still barracks.
This is both civilian and military.

 

[Terry Mixon]

My current idea is using the cabin space 1.5 ton quarters for junior crew; the maintenance, gunners, sensor ops and stewards. pilots, engineers and admins share rooms, and department heads and offices get singles. On larger ships, captains and admirals get high or lux and XOs may get high if lux are available for captains/admirals. Marines still barracks.
This is both civilian and military.

We've had this dance before. Cabin space is explicitly for short duration. If you want to stuff them in a barracks, that's you. Cabin space will get you a mutiny.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You can draw as many or few rooms in your deck-plans as you wish, as long as everyone gets their statutory 2 Dt (half stateroom).

You can even call the rooms barracks or cabins, as long as they cost MCr 0.125 per Dt (MCr 0.5 / 4 Dt).

Plus extra Common Areas to taste...

 

[phavoc]

Let’s talk about crew! Now I’ve mentioned it a couple of times in my designs but I don’t think I ever broke down my philosophy and why I see it that way.

First we all know that we deal with a lot of legacy in Traveller that’s why we still have X-Boats without maneuver (in LBB you didn’t have the room) and tenders.

Another case of legacy is crew quarters for military and para-military space ships. In the LBB we had one size of Stateroom the classification on rather it was a med or high depended on if you had a steward or not. Also military ship ran the same crew requirements as civilian.

Now fast forward to modern day mongoose Traveller where we literally have 4 different classes of accommodation (barracks 1dt per, med stateroom 4dt 2 per, High 6dt 2 per, and finally luxury 10dt 2 per) but because of legacy we are still using the med Stateroom for military ships. Because of this most military and para-military ships under 5001dt either run less crew than the should or sacrifice some other capability to make up the quarters requirement.

In so many ways this does not make sense since in High Guard we have the tools to correct it. But first before the solution let’s talk about how the military does things, one key military concept is Rank Has Its Privileges and one of the way this is shown in modern naval vessels is in quarters. The enlisted and Jr NCOs live in what’s essentially in barracks with crew getting more space based on their rank. How this breaks down in Traveller is simple
Enlisted and Jr NCO’s would use barracks (about 2/3 the total crew)
Senior NCO’s and Jr Officers would be housed in med Staterooms 2 per
Med Rank officers and the Bosun would get a single med stateroom. Most Adventure class ships this would only be the caption on larger ships it would be the department heads and the bosun.
Captains with the exception of above would get a High stateroom at this rank they would also have their own personal steward.
Flags officers quarters would depend on the size of the ship cruisers and below they would get a High stateroom with the members of their staff sharing mid staterooms. On larger ship the flag officer would get a luxury (often the captain’s quarters would also be a luxury) with his staff using either High or Mid depending on rank.

As I said above implementing this will not only make sense but will allow ships under 5001dt to run full military crew and will allow larger ships to be appropriately upgraded

I wasn't a swabbie (Army here), but here's my stab at this:

Enlisted would have their own grouping. Barracks are fine.
NCO's of any type and Ensigns would get the medium stateroom (2 per)
Senior NCO's and officers would get a medium stateroom (1 per)
Captain would get the high stateroom, and possibly 2 - 1 for his sleeping/office, one for his personal dining area which could double as a meeting room.

Ships with flag crews would have similar arrangements - but totally separate from the crew. Depending on the ship size they could have their own rec areas as well. Admirals would get at least the size of a Captain's room.

Keep in mind that sleeping quarters for most would be a bunk, or a single-sized bed. Officers with their own sleeping quarters would get like a queen-sized bed. Additional space would be used for a day cabin or something that could do double duty. Were these a civilian equivalent then you could expect a larger bedroom just for the sake of luxury.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

We've had this dance before. Cabin space is explicitly for short duration. If you want to stuff them in a barracks, that's you. Cabin space will get you a mutiny.

Cabins and barracks cost the same per ton but cabins have 50% more tonnage per person. So why can't you use cabins but CAN use barracks for long term use? Remember these are for MILITARY crews who are supposed to be more disciplined than civilian crews. Cabins are essentially more comfortable barracks.

Cabins for NCOs and jr officers would seem fine to me. Dual occupancy staterooms for slightly higher ranks.

 

[Condottiere]

Accommodations are flexible.

What you can't beat is the iron hard law of life support.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Accommodations are flexible.

What you can't beat is the iron hard law of life support.

Yep. Barracks provide double the life support per person. Long term vs short term.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Yep. Barracks provide double the life support per person. Long term vs short term.

So use barracks that are 50% bigger and just call them cabins.

 

[mavikfelna]

Yep. Barracks provide double the life support per person. Long term vs short term.

View attachment 7160

So just pay the extra for life support.

 

[Terry Mixon]

So just pay the extra for life support.

Or just buy barracks. Same cost, longer life support.

 

[Terry Mixon]

So use barracks that are 50% bigger and just call them cabins.

You can call a footlocker a cabin if you like. Doesn't make it so.

 

[Condottiere]

The other aspect being psychological fatigue.

I'm sure there's a way to synergize this all together.

 

[phavoc]

Always felt that life support should be separated from cabin space. The rules are riddled with inconsistencies. Not sure if they ever fixed the slave barracks/container issue, that had like double the life support capacity - comfort I get, but not oxygen.

I can't see making Traveller military personnel barracked like sailors on WW1 ships or subs (even some modern US subs had hot bunking, like Permit / Thresher class). You can still get a lot of space, even adequate comfort, by going vertical and using as much space as possible. Bunks are for sleeping on a ship and not much else. So as I see it a barracks would be stacked 2 high (which is really a lot of space), with storage under the bunk area. Rest of the cabin would be for head and say table or something for the people in the bunkroom to do things offduty. Beyond that all other facilities would be shared shipwide (mess, gym, rec, etc).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Cabins and barracks cost the same per ton but cabins have 50% more tonnage per person. So why can't you use cabins but CAN use barracks for long term use?

No barracks for crew, just passengers:

HG'22, p60:
BARRACKS
Ships designed to carry large numbers of troops tend to use barracks instead of staterooms. A barracks may only be used to carry soldiers, basic passengers or other personnel who will put up with cramped conditions. This includes marines, ship’s troops or other military personnel who have no other function aboard the ship.

Crew requires staterooms.


If you really hate people you can theoretically house people in Stables at 0.5 Dt/person (HG'22,p63).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Bunks are for sleeping on a ship and not much else. So as I see it a barracks would be stacked 2 high (which is really a lot of space), with storage under the bunk area. Rest of the cabin would be for head and say table or something for the people in the bunkroom to do things offduty. Beyond that all other facilities would be shared shipwide (mess, gym, rec, etc).

All of that (and corridors) are included in your accommodation, whether "staterooms" or "barracks".

 

[phavoc]

All of that (and corridors) are included in your accommodation, whether "staterooms" or "barracks".

In generic terms you are absolutely correct. But if you like that sort of specificity or description wise, it isn't.

 

[Condottiere]

Board and lodging, oxygen and water.

Remember, you could stuff any cargo hold with Ikea furnishing.

Put up cubicle dividers.

But, you do have to account for food, water, oxygen, and climate control.

 

[tytalan]

You can draw as many or few rooms in your deck-plans as you wish, as long as everyone gets their statutory 2 Dt (half stateroom).

You can even call the rooms barracks or cabins, as long as they cost MCr 0.125 per Dt (MCr 0.5 / 4 Dt).

Plus extra Common Areas to taste...

Barracks are in High Guard 1dt per crew so no you don’t have to have 2dt per person.