Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You go where the action is.
Whether it's in the dungeons in fantasy, or the cracks in cyberpunk.
Whether it's in the dungeons in fantasy, or the cracks in cyberpunk.
Mating Airlocks to Cargo Hatches
- Thread starter Terry Mixon
- Start date
That is my model, with some break bulk, speculation and smuggling on the side depending on the level of legitimacy and competence of the crew.
Free Traders can make enough money purely on moving stuff between the hubs and the lesser ports. They may well have advance local contracts in place and rely a little less on the freight spot market. They don't mind dull trips and may spend their life pottering between two systems, getting to know them and the opportunities well (so are almost exclusively NPCs). They steer clear of the dubious cargos and have good working relationship with port officials. They are known and trusted and the first choice for regular cargos. The crew probably have families in either system and therefore value spending every other fortnight at home. Those family members or other regular contacts can hustle for cargo while the ship is away, lining up a full hold ready for when it drops into system. That gives them 4 weeks to get the next cargo/passenger manifest lined up and might even mean that the ship spends less time on planet as it only needs to load and thus can squeeze in half a dozen more jumps per year. They have an excellent medic (either as crew or as a regular contact on call at port) to guarantee that any low passenger is revived safely and are proud of their reputation. Whilst filling staterooms can be less certain, they have no difficulty filling all 20 low berths and it is the most profitable type of cargo for them and the cheapest way to travel for their customers (who might be holiday makers, economic migrants, travelling low end traders or mustering out military). They probably don't regularly speculate in cargo and may have no broker skill among the crew and, as a result, they are not seen as competition by speculators and may become their trusted delivery agents (and may get bonuses for quick guaranteed deliveries). They are not worried about making huge profit over their running costs as they are taking the wages and are treating the mortgage as the investment. As residents they probably pay tax and that is usually income based so it is usually better to take a lower wage and invest any other income in the business (as that normally comes with tax breaks). When they retire they will take the MCrs from the sale of the ship as their payoff, probably sell the business as a going concern and pay a huge one off tax payment (or avoid much of it by passing the business onto a relative or as part of a pension deal).
Then there are the less regular types with a bit of wanderlust (the player characters generally), or with maybe a more checkered past. They can't quite settle to routine (or have to keep moving on because they cannot stay out of trouble) and so they flit from opportunity to opportunity. They may also be more interested in speculative trade and "the big score" as they don't really like the faff of dealing with cargos and customers and just see it as a way of allowing them the freedom to travel. At least they won't pay income tax on those big scores as they are non-residents (and probably won't report it). They may decide their destination based on the goods they can find. They rely on the spot freight market and can only bid for work in the short time they are in system, once they have decided their destination, they cannot advertise in advance and are reliant on their crews ability to hustle for cargo (or competing for the brokers like every other gypsy trucker). As a result they will be running a bit leaner, they have no pristine reputation to protect so they can cut a few corners. There may be some low berth accidents as they are likely taking what low berth passengers they can, but they may make up for that with a decent medic or just accept the exiles and medical cases they normally move are not in a position to choose and accept the risk. They make up for short falls and temporary cash flow issues by taking side jobs and speculative cargo. This may enhance or tarnish their reputation. They probably don't have a good business model and might well incur unnecessary costs due to incautious decision making. When they do make it big through they become the role model for other get-rich-quick wannabes. If they end up destitute or dead in a gutter as many of them will, no-one will hear about it.
Many will be on a spectrum between these two and may drift along that spectrum depending on circumstance.
And of course you have the smugglers, pirates, skill jackers and low-berth dumpers, but these are not pertinent to the trade/cargo model.
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Free Trader - a type of merchant prior career
Free Trader - the derogatory term used by merchant lines to describe the independent trader
Free Trader - a starship class, originally used to transport cargo within developed systems, the sheer number available lead to some entrepreneurs using them for interstellar trade, plus the design could be replicated at lower Tls.
PCs who own or have a mortgage on a Free Trader are not part of 1. since they are now adventuring. numger 2. is often thrown at them as a descriptor, while number 3. is what they get around in.
NPC Free Traders are still in their career.
Free Traders carry small cargo lots that have fallen through the cracks of the regular shipping lines, passengers that have missed the liner but really need to get to...
Free Trader - the derogatory term used by merchant lines to describe the independent trader
Free Trader - a starship class, originally used to transport cargo within developed systems, the sheer number available lead to some entrepreneurs using them for interstellar trade, plus the design could be replicated at lower Tls.
PCs who own or have a mortgage on a Free Trader are not part of 1. since they are now adventuring. numger 2. is often thrown at them as a descriptor, while number 3. is what they get around in.
NPC Free Traders are still in their career.
Free Traders carry small cargo lots that have fallen through the cracks of the regular shipping lines, passengers that have missed the liner but really need to get to...
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Free Trader: You are part of the crew of a tramp trader.
Basically, you're interning.
Basically, you're interning.
Most of the discussion is has been about what that prior career actually looks like. Swordtart's family space truckers (kind of like Cherryh's Merchanters) I put in a different category, but it is certainly reasonable to consider them free traders. I, personally, think that having that kind of regular shipping line and contracts, even if a family corporation instead of a general population corporation, is different and would use mostly bigger ships.
Whether PCs are in a separate career or not depends on the nature of your campaign. There are all sorts of campaigns where the characters are functionally still in their careers. Naval campaigns, mercenary campaigns. The Traveller Adventure is written as if the PCs have been long term hires on a subsidized merchant rather than truly autonomous adventurer types that happen to have a ship. Deepnight they have a full time job. Even Singularity's Act 1, they have a job that is indistinguishable from being in the merchant career.
Your underlying point that typically a group of mustered out PCs who happen to have a ship that can handle merchant cargo are not actually in the profession of free trader, but rather are adventurers, is important. There are significant differences in a campaign that is about being free traders from a campaign that is about being adventurers who haul cargo on the side to finance their trips.
As far as the class of ship goes, I think the that the idea that it was a serious trade ship took a big hit in the change from "small ship traveller" to the current conception. When the biggest ships around were 5000 dtons, the idea that a 200dton ship might do serious work made more sense than it does when 1000 to 2000 dton ships are "small". But I also think that Traveller seriously under-represents system ships. A lot of the work that might go to a 200 dton ship is stuff that wouldn't need a jump drive, imho.
But, again, this all depends heavily on what you think trade volumes actually look like.
That is possible, but it may be a function of the ability to get a mortgage. We treat players as a special case and just make it possible for them to get a ship. In reality there should be quite a few hoops to jump though before the bank hands over MCr40-50 to some Rando. Being tied to a nice little fixed route would seem a lower risk than a "go where thou wilt" policy. The family firm (and it may only be Mom the pilot/astrogator and Pop the Engineer/Mechanic) might not get that break. It might take the entire extended family assets and savings just to get a secured loan.
That small trade probably won't support a bigger ship taking everything every 2 weeks. The bigger the capacity, the harder it is to fill.
Another thing I was thinking of is the old charter rules. There doesn't appear to be anything in MGT2 about it but CT has the rule you could rent a ship for 2 weeks for 90% of its total maximum revenue generating capacity. Is we adopt same rule for MGT2 the Type A can generate KCr14 from the low berths and assuming 3 berths used by the crew another KCr63 for 7 high passengers. The KCr 74 from the remaining cargo capacity gives a grand total of KCr151. The Charter fee is thus KCr135.9 or roughly KCr272 per month. The mortgage and maintenance come to just KCr197 per month. So if we assume all other costs are met by the people doing the chartering you could buy a ship, retain ownership of it and just rent it out for a profit of around KCr75 per month (a return of 2% per annum on your investment).
This could be used as the basis of a business. We could assume KCr73 from the cargo and KCr14 from the Low passengers isn't too hard which leaves KCr49 plus your operating expenses (wages, fuel, life support and fees) to find each jump. If you luck out and get a full high passenger docket earning KCr63, you will have KCr28 to meet your monthly expenses which is hardly a fortune but doable if you refine your own fuel. The trouble will generally be getting those high passengers, and even through a middle passage is worth KCr7.5, once you take into account the extra DTon of cargo that is freed up, 7 of those gets you only KCr52.5 giving you KCr7 per month to cover your expenses and profits which is an impossible ask without cutting some corners.
You might tip things more in your favour by using a bot or someone with Steward as secondary skill or someone working passage to save money on wages. You might also be able to operate with less crew if people are doubling up on roles and free up another stateroom (or two) for passengers. Operating at this level you might be able to scrape by, it will be a challenge, but getting a bank to loan you KCr272 to fund a rental might be far easier than getting a loan for MCr46, and if it doesn't work out you don't have a mortgage to meet. Of course you don't get the big pay out at the end of the mortgage either so you need to make all your profit from the trips, but it might be a viable route to speculative trading.
This all assumes that you only get 2 trips per month. Even if your trips take the full 2 weeks, there is effectively a free month over the course of the year, the revenues of which are clear profit. If you can shave even a day off each trip that will give you another trip or two, which will make all the difference. This is where the local knowledge, contacts and a regular schedule can really pay. If you effectively gas and go you could get 3 trips in a month (maybe 36 per year). An extra KCr300 or so will turn the proposition around.
Since the profit to the leaser is so large, you might also be able to negotiate a better deal for extended rentals. This wont be an option if you are skipping about all over the place as you will probably be limited to the distance you can jump from the base location as a security measure and have to swap charters to go further.
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Our view of the system certainly is distorted by the player facing nature of the rules. Large amounts of bureaucracy and expenses are just rolled into "The mortgage" and "Maintenance" for simplification of play. No business license, no registration, no insurance, no crew certifications, and a one size fits all "unsecured mortgage".
I don't think any of that is how it actually works for people who are "in the free trader career" vs players who have retired (mustered out) in possession of a ship. But now we are completely into GM discretion territory as the rules don't say anything about professional operations.
I don't think any of that is how it actually works for people who are "in the free trader career" vs players who have retired (mustered out) in possession of a ship. But now we are completely into GM discretion territory as the rules don't say anything about professional operations.
Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
It does solidify in my mind is the idea that there should be a small shipping corporation operating in almost all of the Mains to handle the small and specialty cargo between the systems and intra-system.
Pick up the alcohol from point A on the main planet, take it out to the 5th moon around gas giant three. Pick up spec cargo, Jump to the next system, etc.
Pick up the alcohol from point A on the main planet, take it out to the 5th moon around gas giant three. Pick up spec cargo, Jump to the next system, etc.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
In-system shipping is even more hand-waved than interstellar shipping, though. I have built several designs for large (20k+ dTon) merchant ships, and (with 3 jumps per month) they can get freight costs down to (or just below) about 600 Cr per dTon. In-system stuff is handwaved as 'about one tenth the price'; but operating non-jump craft is MUCH less expensive per dTon.
It would be neat to see an analysis of an in-system shipping line, but so much would need to be created from whole cloth that I do not know how useful it would be.
[Edit:] Also, there are in-system distances where Jumping is faster; but it may not be cheaper. There is nothing official in MgT 2e about Jump-0 ships, but figuring J-0 is approximately a quarter of J-1 seems to fit the pattern set by M-drives. Again, house-ruling this stuff just makes it more complicated and less applicable to other tables. [/Edit]
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Yeah. The old CT Book 7 had a variety of large and small corporation types.
There absolutely should be non jump ships that go from high port to downport and to all the spaceports throughout the system. Maybe there are passengers that jump to the colonies on the moons of Saturn and Uranus, but cargo would almost certainly go by "space" ship, not "star" ship. Very few businesses will pay for faster delivery when they can just order a week or two further in advance. No reason to pay for a jump drive and lose the cargo capacity to engine and fuel over few days or even a week.
I think this is both sensible from a logistics and business perspective and good for gaming, because it puts a lot more ships in play for players to get around on when they do not have their own ship. And it puts piracy back on the menu, since the ships are not appearing and disappearing within a relatively short distance of the main planet.
There absolutely should be non jump ships that go from high port to downport and to all the spaceports throughout the system. Maybe there are passengers that jump to the colonies on the moons of Saturn and Uranus, but cargo would almost certainly go by "space" ship, not "star" ship. Very few businesses will pay for faster delivery when they can just order a week or two further in advance. No reason to pay for a jump drive and lose the cargo capacity to engine and fuel over few days or even a week.
I think this is both sensible from a logistics and business perspective and good for gaming, because it puts a lot more ships in play for players to get around on when they do not have their own ship. And it puts piracy back on the menu, since the ships are not appearing and disappearing within a relatively short distance of the main planet.
They would be much less than that, because there is no way that the professionals are paying what the PCs pay for berthing, fuel, mortgage, and other fees. They'd have advantageous deals or in house operations on all of that.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
As you all have said, for in-system traffic is is mainly handwavium, but on the topic of berthing costs? I have used brackets. The costs listed for each class of starport is the cost per 1,000 tons of ship rounded up. Otherwise known as Adventure-class ships. Given the player-facing nature of the rules, this felt appropriate.
Just My 2Cr
Edit - Are prices listed anywhere for berthing a spaceports?
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
I get a minimal (~500000 dTon) 'Class-A Starport' (with a 5100 dTon tl-12 fusion powerplant, and fuel refinery but no tanks) having a monthly maintenance cost of 14.98 MCr. That does not count the cost of the powerplant fuel, life support, nor paying the crew. Also note that this does not include warehousing space or cargo-handling equipment, so what services the Starport is actually offering to merchants is a bit of a mystery. Given 100k dTons of ships continuously docked at the station, that seems to work out to a minimum of ~150 Cr per dTon per month.
Adding costs for powerplant fuel, fuel tanks, life support, cargo warehousing & handling, and crew will raise this; as will the fact that some of the dock space will be sitting empty, or holding a ship which cannot (or does not) pay for Berthing. Spaceports may get off cheaper by having less expensive (or no) Shipyards.
[Edit:] Berthing fees are usually simply handwaved by the referee to reflect the needs of the story, and this seems to often be the behind-the-scenes assumption for how such fees are derived. But the canon fluff text makes it clear that the Third Imperium regards interstellar trade as essential, and any barriers to it as being an existential threat -- so having control over how much a starport can charge in berthing (and other services) fees seems like something that the 3I would be extremely interested in doing. These fees might also be the main source of tax revenue available to the Imperium, which is another reason that figuring the costs accurately might be important to world-building. Folks who are uninterested in world-building are free to ignore all this, of course. [/Edit]
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IRL, the bottleneck for shipping does not tend to be containers or ships/planes, it is slots at the sea or airport. Big companies pay to control those slots (especially at airports) to make sure that their vehicle get processed. Or it might even just outright own its own terminal. Matson Shipping, for instance, just outright owns a container terminal for its own ships in the Port of Honolulu.
So they will probably pay less per visit because they lease or own the space, while the prices for the other folks will be higher than the "fair" rate would be if everyone was paying the same.
So they will probably pay less per visit because they lease or own the space, while the prices for the other folks will be higher than the "fair" rate would be if everyone was paying the same.
I tend to assume that in system stuff is done by small craft - mainly all those surplus Navy Ships Boats. At 5G even a far gas giant is only 3 days away.
The interior is probably re-jigged with maybe a barracks style stateroom attached to the bridge in place of the fresher and ships locker as a pragmatic upgrade to extend the range. It is flexible as a low capacity shuttle (for crew rotations on short range shuttle). The seats in the cabin could be lay flat ones and serve as beds or be put away if more cargo space were required.
It costs buttons to maintain and is probably owned outright by some ex-Navy roustabout. Small Craft revised the fuel rules so the 1Dton fuel will last 26 weeks of operation and as there is no disadvantage in using unrefined fuel for Power Plants, fuel is less than Cr20 per month and inconsequential. Landing fees are liable to be a few credits you don't need much space to park them up (and you could probably land in a car park at a pinch). By the time it gets out of the protection of the 100D limit it will be travelling so fast that interception would be virtually impossible. Crew requirements are minimal and so life support is the usual Cr1000 per month but likely no stateroom element.
It might even make more sense for on planet deliveries as a ballistic point-to-point is far quicker than even fast aircraft and the cargo capacity is vastly greater (being in DTons rather than Tonnes).
As fuel and maintenance costs are pretty linear there is no real advantage in having one big ship vs several smaller ones other than the wages of the crew. As these are almost certainly singleton owner operator craft they are probably unwaged and take their pay directly from the freight fees.
To pay its way it needs to be making 800 maintenance per month plus the wage. You are probably paying by the day rather than by distance (since it is a non-linear relationship) and the vast majority is the Cr6000 wage. So assuming 20 DTons of payload after modifications and 20 working days per month you need to be charging in the order of Cr20 per DTon per day, which is ball park the cost in CT. If it is only the 1 DTon you want to send to the far gas giant, but it is the only one going, you may have to pay for the whole cargo bay regardless (as an opportunity cost). Passengers would cost a little more if not put in cryo due to the life support costs, but this could be pro-rata.
With the Small Craft book there are a number of other options, but the navy hands out ship's boats like surplus socks and there needs to be a use for them (and trade drives the empire).
If the big commercial carriers are my international shipping firms, and my free traders are the long distance truckers, the small craft is a white van man.
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We would need volumes involved to know whether large craft or small craft are what's needed. As well as whether the ships would be passengers and cargo separately or hybrid craft. So, yeah, could easily be either way.
I would tend to think that ore carriers and fuel tankers and the like would be large system ships in most active systems, but there would certainly be a range of cargo delivery vessels if the system was reasonably developed.
I would tend to think that ore carriers and fuel tankers and the like would be large system ships in most active systems, but there would certainly be a range of cargo delivery vessels if the system was reasonably developed.
In-system doesn't even require a ship. Just put the goods in a pod and push it into a transfer orbit.
It's worth remembering that the Traveller trade stuff is *interstellar* trade. There is a bottleneck there in regards to jump drives and jump fuel. No starship is really going to compete at an in-system level, except maybe for transport to the outer system.
And also worth remembering that most things are produced in-system. The trade ratings are specifically for interstellar trade; most non-agricultural planets can feed themselves (though they might appreciate a change of diet); most non-industrial worlds can make stuff (although scale of production advantages do mean - as in real life - the bulk of manufacture happens elsewhere). Any thing which is vital to survival is likely to be catered for locally; Vacuum worlds won't be shipping in oxygen - they'll be extracting it from ice or rocks or whatever make the most local sense. Water worlds are quite likely to be manufacturing watercraft locally, regardless of trade codes.
So interstellar trade is mostly in non-essentials, or where obtaining something and shipping it ends up being cheaper than obtaining it locally.
It's worth remembering that the Traveller trade stuff is *interstellar* trade. There is a bottleneck there in regards to jump drives and jump fuel. No starship is really going to compete at an in-system level, except maybe for transport to the outer system.
And also worth remembering that most things are produced in-system. The trade ratings are specifically for interstellar trade; most non-agricultural planets can feed themselves (though they might appreciate a change of diet); most non-industrial worlds can make stuff (although scale of production advantages do mean - as in real life - the bulk of manufacture happens elsewhere). Any thing which is vital to survival is likely to be catered for locally; Vacuum worlds won't be shipping in oxygen - they'll be extracting it from ice or rocks or whatever make the most local sense. Water worlds are quite likely to be manufacturing watercraft locally, regardless of trade codes.
So interstellar trade is mostly in non-essentials, or where obtaining something and shipping it ends up being cheaper than obtaining it locally.
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J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
If the pilot/owner/operator lives on board -- converting the 'cabin space' to a stateroom, a single dTon of 'common area', and 4 dTons of cargo -- then the Ship's Boat can haul 16 dTons of freight.
Call it 550 Cr per month for upkeep; plus 1000 Cr for life support, plus blue-collar monthly cost-of-living (from 1000 Cr to 1500 Cr per month) as wages, that comes out to a maximum of 3050 Cr per month. BUT some of the 'life support' costs are covered in 'cost of living' -- so maybe 2400 Cr per month or so. With 16 dTons, that is approximately 150 Cr per dTon per month; and the spacecraft will be spending less than a week on each trip (or they will be competing with micro-jump ships, which I do not want to figure right now) so the cost per dTon per trip is some fraction of 150 Cr. Cost to charter for a month is (following the 80% guideline from CT) probably 150 x 16 x 0.8 = 1920 Cr per month.
A Pinnace, using the same assumptions, costs about 2600 Cr per month for 25 dTons of freight (104 Cr / dTon).
The (5G) Ship's Boat can make a 4.569x10^9 km (30.54 AU) trip in less than a week; slower craft cover less distance in a week, which might impact their competitiveness against micro-jumping. Also, having a faster drive is useful to escape from potential pirates.
| M-drive rating | Kilometers per week | AU per week |
| 6-G | 5490000000 | 36.70 |
| 5-G (Ship's Boat, Pinnace) | 4569000000 | 30.54 |
| 4-G (Modular Cutter) | 3660000000 | 24.47 |
| 3-G (Shuttle, Slow Boat, Slow Pinnace) | 2740000000 | 18.32 |
| 2-G | 1830000000 | 12.23 |
| 1-G (Launch) | 915000000 | 6.12 |
How does goods from Earth get to Mars without a ship? As far as ship size goes, small ships need more crew per bit of cargo because you need a pilot for each ship, while a large ship can be much larger than a small ship and only need a pilot and an engineer (or two).
As far as what is traded, that's going to be determined by the GM, frankly. Even if you are using the Third Imperium setting, which is not assumed, it could vary quite a lot and stay within what's published. Charted Space clearly has the technology (Fusion+, Fabricators, etc) to be post scarcity (though it obviously isn't). So you could definitely have a very low trade universe where most stuff is home made without any kind of difficulty in justifying it.
The Imperium, though, is primarily a trade federation. The game has a lot of implied trade. It could be swarms of trade ships running all over the place and not contradict anything either. The list of goods you can buy for speculative trade is certainly not limited to luxuries, though those are usually the most profitable. And, of course, we have some references to really long trade routes. Tobia to Floria or the Aslan sections of the Reach. Trade ships from the Core arriving in Regina.
One of my assumptions is that trade does happen for the same reason it happens on Earth. China can grow enough soybeans and rice for itself, but it doesn't want to invest that much land in agriculture. It would rather put that land and labor into other things and buy the food from somewhere else. The US (used to) not want all those polluting factories and mines on our land and preferred to buy that stuff and sell expensive services and high tech products. Other places want to buy those things they can't make and so they sell the stuff they can to the people who don't want to make it any more.
I also like to assume that star systems are fully utilized, so there are secondary colonies, space stations, asteroid mining bases, and all that stuff in any system with the tech to do (and many that don't have the tech if they are inside a star faring polity like the Third Imperium). Traveller, obviously, saves a lot of time and space by only briefly covering the mainworld of any star system in its listings. So you could easily choose that to be the facts on the ground, too.
As far as what is traded, that's going to be determined by the GM, frankly. Even if you are using the Third Imperium setting, which is not assumed, it could vary quite a lot and stay within what's published. Charted Space clearly has the technology (Fusion+, Fabricators, etc) to be post scarcity (though it obviously isn't). So you could definitely have a very low trade universe where most stuff is home made without any kind of difficulty in justifying it.
The Imperium, though, is primarily a trade federation. The game has a lot of implied trade. It could be swarms of trade ships running all over the place and not contradict anything either. The list of goods you can buy for speculative trade is certainly not limited to luxuries, though those are usually the most profitable. And, of course, we have some references to really long trade routes. Tobia to Floria or the Aslan sections of the Reach. Trade ships from the Core arriving in Regina.
One of my assumptions is that trade does happen for the same reason it happens on Earth. China can grow enough soybeans and rice for itself, but it doesn't want to invest that much land in agriculture. It would rather put that land and labor into other things and buy the food from somewhere else. The US (used to) not want all those polluting factories and mines on our land and preferred to buy that stuff and sell expensive services and high tech products. Other places want to buy those things they can't make and so they sell the stuff they can to the people who don't want to make it any more.
I also like to assume that star systems are fully utilized, so there are secondary colonies, space stations, asteroid mining bases, and all that stuff in any system with the tech to do (and many that don't have the tech if they are inside a star faring polity like the Third Imperium). Traveller, obviously, saves a lot of time and space by only briefly covering the mainworld of any star system in its listings. So you could easily choose that to be the facts on the ground, too.
Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
This is why I have set up my game to have the Systems page that the players have in their data library and "everyone knows"
Then there is the Extended System Page that contains a much fuller write up and many more details as they visit and add to all the contacts, people, and places they interact with.
