Matching the Show - Ideas Wanted!

[katadder]

So, turning in the shooting step is a broken mechanic IMHO.

I disagree. At CQ9 or 10 most fleets will require a pretty decent roll to accomplish it and also give up the option to perform any other special order in its stead. It also doesn't allow the ship to turn any more than it normally would anyway. To be honest, I never understood why boresight wasn't a special order anyway since it's effectively no different than concentrate all firepower in its own way. If you ask me, boresight itself is the broken mechanic, not moving in the shooting phase. JMO...

Cheers, Gary

yes it doesnt allow any more turning than normal. however it allows you tactical advantage in that you can see which way the turn has gone so as foxmeister says that effectively gives a boresight ship somewhere between 90-180 degrees of arc depending on the turns they have.

 

[Foxmeister]

I disagree. At CQ9 or 10 most fleets will require a pretty decent roll to accomplish it and also give up the option to perform any other special order in its stead.

Aside from the fact that it doesn't work ( see below), making it a really hard CQ rather makes it pointless, since you're unlikely to pull it off. Therefore, in most cases it won't actually help, so doesn't solve the problem. IMHO, any SA "fix" for this issue needs to be no more than CQ8 so that average crews will get it 50% of the time.

It also doesn't allow the ship to turn any more than it normally would anyway.

It allows you to totally change your arc of fire in the shooting step after everything else has moved. A boresight ship with a 90 degree turn that makes the CQ check can now target any ship with a 180 degree arc of the front of the ship before it is turned. You'd end up seeing ISA players howling how the WS should be boresight, since with their 90 degree turns and +1 CQ, they would benefit quite a bit from such a change.

If you ask me, boresight itself is the broken mechanic, not moving in the shooting phase. JMO...

Boresight isn't broken in and of itself - it is the interaction between initiative and boresight that is broken when your opponent has a significant advantage in ship numbers.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Banichi]

What about making it if the targeted ship is still in the boresighting ships front arc after it (the targeted ship) has moved, then the boresighting ship gets its shot. This would mean that a slow ship would have a harder time avoiding the effects of a "follow the target" sa, wereas a nimble ship might still be able to avoid being targeted. Although having to take evasive action might mean it looses its shot, or puts itself at risk from other enemy ships.

I quite like the mental image of the crew of a fast ship going "they have a lock!! Move, move, move!!

I guess the sequence of play would go like this

1 Omega moves and draws a boresight on a xill that hasn't moved. The EA player passes the cc test for the "follow the target" sa.

2 In the Vree players turn the xill goes APTE, but still doesn't make it out of the omega's front arc. Therefore the omega gets to have a go with its laser.

 

[katadder]

there is a boresight fix coming up in the expansion. what it is you'll have to wait and see unless someone else tells you

 

[Foxmeister]

there is a boresight fix coming up in the expansion. what it is you'll have to wait and see unless someone else tells you

Hallelujah!

I do hope that a leak is forthcoming.....

Regards,

Dave

 

[Banichi]

there is a boresight fix coming up in the expansion. what it is you'll have to wait and see unless someone else tells you

COOL. I can't wait to see what it is

 

[silashand]

I do hope that a leak is forthcoming.....

I just want to know the date for the expansion's release ;-)...

Cheers, Gary

 

[l33tpenguin]

I do hope that a leak is forthcoming.....

I just want to know the date for the expansion's release ;-)...

Cheers, Gary

Shortly after the painting guide...

Okay, maybe I'm missing what is happening with the slide... but if I'm right it means you start in the front arc, begin slide, move through the port arc into the rear and are able to shoot the you forward guns.

The ship you are doing this to however, gets to shoot neither its forward guns (where you move a portion of your movement)nor its' port guns (where you fire your guns and do this fancy move).

How about the special action 'fire at will!' where you declare you shoot at any ship trying to pass through an arc where you have weapons. We see this in the show, so it has as much merit as the 'slide'. This way when a group of whitestars wants to shoot by my Primus I declare 'fire at will' and can fire at any ship with the audacity to fly right though my heaviest batteries arc.

- we have a tendency on these boards to think that if it is done as a special action anything goes... You put this in the game you might as well just declare the whitestar turreted. If you make the CQ hard for the whitestar, it's impossible for most others, if its not hard it becomes the standard tactic...

Ripple

The 'Slide' idea, at least, as presented by me, didn't allow a ship to avoid any attack it might normally. It mearly changed the order of the attacking ships turns. The 'Slide allows the attacking ship to make one turn at the very end of its movement and another turn at the very beginning of its next movement.

In fact, the SA could just be done by allowing a ship to make a turn before making any movement at all, as it would create the same effect.

As it is, ships can completely avoid arcs if they are fast enough or close enough.

 

[Greg Smith]

I just want to know the date for the expansion's release ;-)...

Matt has said September/October.

 

[CZuschlag]

Okay, maybe I'm missing what is happening with the slide... but if I'm right it means you start in the front arc, begin slide, move through the port arc into the rear and are able to shoot the you forward guns.

The ship you are doing this to however, gets to shoot neither its forward guns (where you move a portion of your movement)nor its' port guns (where you fire your guns and do this fancy move).

How about the special action 'fire at will!' where you declare you shoot at any ship trying to pass through an arc where you have weapons. We see this in the show, so it has as much merit as the 'slide'. This way when a group of whitestars wants to shoot by my Primus I declare 'fire at will' and can fire at any ship with the audacity to fly right though my heaviest batteries arc.

- we have a tendency on these boards to think that if it is done as a special action anything goes... You put this in the game you might as well just declare the whitestar turreted. If you make the CQ hard for the whitestar, it's impossible for most others, if its not hard it becomes the standard tactic...

Ripple

Totally agree. Unless, of course, you remove the Rangers property for the ISA wholesale. I don't want to see a balance for the Whitestar being boresighting, then a special action to help the oresighted ships that is unusually hard .... so only the Whitestar can regularly perform it. That's garbage. I hope this isn't the answer.

There are some boresight ships that are OK, as well -- particularly the Hyperion, the Ka'Toc, and the Thentus. Are we just consenting to overpower them, also?

>> Back on things from the Show that Don't Happen Here:

Boarding parties on the show are raiders. Here, they are monstrosities, with two breaching pods capable of easily eviscerating an entire Skirmish ship's crew. On average, one marine takes out just under 17 crew when it's on its rampage. Can we get this under control?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I only recall one instance of boarding in the show, when the EarthForce marines board B5. As I recall, they come from one breaching pod, and are fought off by the security forces.

 

[CZuschlag]

Right. Here, they are weapons of mass destruction, used on anything that has been slowed down, and especially by a special action (Launch Breaching/Boarding). Get rid of it, or tone it down.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Mind you, what would have those marines done to the crew and population of B5 if the security forces hadn't beaten them back? How do you resist armed, trained soldiers without weapons or training of your own?

 

[l33tpenguin]

Mind you, what would have those marines done to the crew and population of B5 if the security forces hadn't beaten them back? How do you resist armed, trained soldiers without weapons or training of your own?

While its more often than not true that the soldiers that would be manning the breaching pods are more highly trained and, often, better equipped than the crew of the ship, that isn't to say the crew is without training. All military personnel undergo some form of combat training (even the now the Air Force, the farce of 'combat training' in the military, is beginning to focus more attention on training its personnel for combat situations). And ships aren't without trained security detail or marines.

I've yet to actually witness how much damage breaching pods are, so can't attest to how terrible they are, but considering that a ships 'troop' score is supposed to represent the armed and trained personnel onboard, full capable of combat, I would think that, unless the boarding opponent had a substantially larger force, boarding a ship would be extremely risky.

Also considering the advantage the crew has in regards to 'home ground' and the ability to contain the invaders, even ships with low or no troop scores have a considerable advantage, though I could understand if a boarding action limited the functionality of a ship. For instance, forcing a ship to seal off sections of the vessel that are under attack would be limiting, as personnel can no longer access those areas or are now trapped there, having to deal with the invaders rather than focus on their duties.

Possibly have a special action that limits the effectiveness of the boarded ship, but gives a substantial bonus to dealing with the invaders, similar to close blast doors.

 

[Ripple]

Bore sight solution put out by silas has been suggested and most of the main arguments against it are countered by making the ship pick it's eventual target during it's normal activation. Then turn it to face the target after move, or as close as it can get. The way the ship doesn't get any ability to 'game' its arcs as the enemy controls the final fine positioning and stops the issue with initiative sinking out targets that should be easy (say a primus sitting in front of an omega or a vorchan than decides not to get out of the front arc.)

Boarding parties are just too effective vs crew... yes they should be dangerous but Sheridan (a non-marine) is a pretty good shot by the show standards... Invanova doesn't seem like she'd be bad either. I would assume regular crew would be much more dangerous than one kill in six.

Ripple

 

[l33tpenguin]

Bore sight solution put out by silas has been suggested and most of the main arguments against it are countered by making the ship pick it's eventual target during it's normal activation. Then turn it to face the target after move, or as close as it can get. The way the ship doesn't get any ability to 'game' its arcs as the enemy controls the final fine positioning and stops the issue with initiative sinking out targets that should be easy (say a primus sitting in front of an omega or a vorchan than decides not to get out of the front arc.)

The 'follow that target' is a *REALLY* good solution (even though I don't like the name...how about 'Bring guns to bear'? Follow that target just reminds me of....).
As long as the SA specifies that the ship MUST attempt to turn in the direction of the target ship regardless of whether it makes it out of the firing arc, I think it works really well. It STILL commits the firing ship in a direction of travel, only it is decided by the targeted ship.

Advantage: you get to boresight a target of your choosing
Disadvantage: The target can force you to move in a direction that may be in his/her favor. A fast enough ship might still be able to get out of the arc of the turn. Thats the risk you take. You are commited to the turn regardless.
Gameplay: removes the use of swarm fleets as init sinks for large boresight ships.

In fact, it could easily be used by any ship. The danger of commiting to a turn your opponent decides is a REAL risk. Declare the target arc and the target ship (Forward arc on White Star X or Boresight on Vorchan Y).

Boarding parties are just too effective vs crew... yes they should be dangerous but Sheridan (a non-marine) is a pretty good shot by the show standards... Invanova doesn't seem like she'd be bad either. I would assume regular crew would be much more dangerous than one kill in six.

Ripple

I'd take Ivanova over a dozen marines any day. I mean, who are you going to side with in a fight? Some jarheads or the Right Hand of God?

 

[katadder]

Bore sight solution put out by silas has been suggested and most of the main arguments against it are countered by making the ship pick it's eventual target during it's normal activation. Then turn it to face the target after move, or as close as it can get. The way the ship doesn't get any ability to 'game' its arcs as the enemy controls the final fine positioning and stops the issue with initiative sinking out targets that should be easy (say a primus sitting in front of an omega or a vorchan than decides not to get out of the front arc.)

Ripple

it doesnt balance it out at all, you cant out manouvre the ship then as it gets to see which way you go.
if my vorchan wants to take on a hyperion and the hyperion moves 1st it has a chance as it can go the opposite way, however if it cant fool the hyperion whats the point in init?
the same could then be applied to foreward arc ships, you still have to decide which way you think the enemy is going to go, this special action gives the benefit to boresight ships in that regard.

 

[B5freak]

I'd be interested in seeing some additional maneuverability in the Vorlons to reflect the fact that their ships are living creatures that originally evolved to live in space. Ex, movement SA's should all be automatic.

Also, in what little footage there is of Vorlon ships firing, their beam appears capable of sweeping through a much bigger arc than just the Fore.

Regarding fighters, there's references throughout the show of fighters and even capital ships targeting just an opponents engines. It seems some rule that would allow fighters (or capital ships in a target's appropriate arc) to target major external systems such as engines, would be useful. Possible implementation would be to have the firing unit indicate general or focused targeting prior to firing (SA?). Should a Critical Hit be scored, the location would be limited to (or have a higher probability of hitting) the intended system.

 

[Banichi]

Regarding fighters, there's references throughout the show of fighters and even capital ships targeting just an opponents engines. It seems some rule that would allow fighters (or capital ships in a target's appropriate arc) to target major external systems such as engines, would be useful. Possible implementation would be to have the firing unit indicate general or focused targeting prior to firing (SA?). Should a Critical Hit be scored, the location would be limited to (or have a higher probability of hitting) the intended system.

I bought this up a while ago. I thought it would be kind of cool as a SA in certain scenarios. I have no idea how to make links to threads, so in an act of necromancy I bumped it. It's the "Targeting critical systems" thread.

 

[patton4014]

Hi guys,

A quick question for you.

Have you ever seen a ship do something in the TV series that you could not replicate on the table in CTA? We have a 'ships do funky things' chapter in the forthcoming Powers & Principalities, so if there is something you would liek to see, shout out!

Don't worry about going into game stats - just let us know what you would like to see. . .

Hi all,

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest. I think that there are a lot of good ideas her so far. But here are a couple that I would like to add to the mix. Please excuse if they are already in the rules or have been suggested here or other places. I have not looked at the rule books in about 6 months:

1. Time on Target – make this a special action for the bigger ships and space stations or with a personality for an added bonus that represents all of a ships weapons hitting one target all at the same time.
2. Ramming – For both fighters and capital ships
3. Nukes and nuclear mines – make them costly but part of the game. I think it would really add some twists to the older fleets and eras and make them more interesting. Kind of compare WWII bombing to todays guided bombs.
4. Change to the hull defense numbers from 1-6 to 1-10 – I see many of the ships in the show either being tougher to hit or much more hardy than they seem in the game. Expand the toughness of ships like the Vorlons and Shadows and it would make their weapons much more devastating that they can hit more often at the higher level. The fact that we see a shadow ship hit by multiple beam weapons for several seconds etc. is where this really comes across in the show.
5. Target lock - make bore sight weapons easier to deal with. Once you have HIT a target with your bore weapon it can track and follow the target for each successive round, as long as the ship is in the same arc as the direction of the weapon.
6. Power levels and Hyperspace engines - Several times during the show we see ships take their jump engines offline for a power increase to weapons
7. Along the same lines “One, continuous focused burst”(I think this is the line) – I don’t remember the episode when Sheridan says this but I like the idea of putting all of your eggs in one basket. Have the ability to loose all of your other weapons for a round or two to fire a heavily augmented shot from your main weapon against a target.

Well that is all for now. I am now jazzed to get all 5 seasons and start watching again for other ideas.