Martial Arts

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

It's always struck me that Martial Arts in RQ was stuck on as an afterthought, which is a shame as there are Gloranthan cultures with dedicated martial artists. It really should be a viable alternative to using a weapon, so here's my proposal. All comments and refinements to the system are very welcome.

Martial Arts Skill
There are many different Martial Arts styles, but for convenience, and to prevent the Martial Arts rules alone being as long as the rest of the combat rules, we put them all under one skill. Martial Arts is an Advanced Skill, and is based on DEX + POW - SIZ (it's as much a mental/spiritual discipline as it is a physical one, and large SIZ hampers the fast movements and freedom of movement required).

Damage
The amount of damage is based on the attack dice roll. Higher skill scores will be able to succeed with higher rolls, and so will do more damage.

01-10: 1d3 (same as standard unarmed)
11-20: 1d4
21-30: 1d5
31-40: 1d6
41-50: 1d8
51-60: 1d8 + 1
61-70: 1d10
71-80: 1d12
81-90: 2d6
91-00: 2d8

In the even of a critical, look up your skill itself on the damage table, then use the MRQ critical rule.

Where this falls down is that it's a table to have to look up, and that it doesn't handle skills over 100. Proposals are welcome.

Parrying
Martial Artists should be able to parry blows from normal weapons. This is dangerous to the Martial Artist, as excess damage will go through to the limb used for parrying!

The AP for a parry attempt are again derived from the parry roll:

01-20: 1 AP
21-40: 2 AP
41-60: 3 AP
61-80: 4 AP
81-00: 5 AP

A critical uses the standard MRQ critical rules. Martial Arts parries do not use HP - instead, all damage in excess of AP goes through to the location used for parrying (normally the right arm). The wise martial artist will always dodge unless a parry is absolutely required!

This also falls down on being a table, and not handling skills over 100.

Use of Armour
Martial Arts training is done without armour - any use of armour will render the discipline useless, and the normal unarmed combat rules are used instead. One exception is that some martial artists like to sew thin metal rods into the lining of their sleeves. These should be worth no more than 2 AP, will also add their AP to the Parry AP, and will impose a -10% penalty.

Effects of Damage to the Martial Artist
A martial artist who has suffered a Serious Wound in any location much make a Persistence roll each round or be unable to maintain the high level of concentration required. Use the standard unarmed combat rules instead.

 

[King Amenjar]

Depends how martial arty you want to go, I suppose. I don't think Bruce Lee types fit into Glorantha, as far as we know, anyway, but in RQ3 it was very disappointing when Land of Ninja came out and had absolutely no extra martial arts rules at all.

 

[simonh]

Depends how martial arty you want to go, I suppose. I don't think Bruce Lee types fit into Glorantha, as far as we know, anyway, but in RQ3 it was very disappointing when Land of Ninja came out and had absolutely no extra martial arts rules at all.

Kralorela has a lot of Chinese flavour and they do have martial arts schools and styles such as Centipede style documented in Gloranthan canon.

I don't think it would be right to allow the Martial Arts skill to become fully equal to other fighting styles that use swords, armour, etc. Frankly in the real world Martial Arts simply isn't that owerful by a long shot. Yes a Martial Artist that has practiced all his ife will beat a skilled swordsman, but he won't beat a swordsman that has also practiced all his life.

Having said that, Glorantha isn't the real world. I think the way to even the score in MRQ is probably using Legendary Abilities to emulate the more absurd abilities form MA mythology such as Arrow Catching and such. Obviously these would have a minimum requirement of Martial Arts skill at 90, among other things. I've put an example on my MRQ web site.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Simon Hibbs

 

[King Amenjar]

Depends how martial arty you want to go, I suppose. I don't think Bruce Lee types fit into Glorantha, as far as we know, anyway, but in RQ3 it was very disappointing when Land of Ninja came out and had absolutely no extra martial arts rules at all.

Kralorela has a lot of Chinese flavour and they do have martial arts schools and styles such as Centipede style documented in Gloranthan canon.

Grmph... that's later Glorantha when it got all YACAPE* and rubbish.

*Yet Another Cut And Pasted Earth

 

[atgxtg]

Having said that, Glorantha isn't the real world. I think the way to even the score in MRQ is probably using Legendary Abilities to emulate the more absurd abilities form MA mythology such as Arrow Catching and such. Obviously these would have a minimum requirement of Martial Arts skill at 90, among other things. I've put an example on my MRQ web site.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Simon Hibbs

Acutally Arrow Catching isn't all that absurd. Usually not your best defense, but it is possible. I have actually done it. Once. I hope never to be in that particular situation again, but I can attest that it is possible.

Now those 60 foot leaps...

 

[zanshin]

I agree with Simon that Legendary abilities are the best way to model top level martial arts moves. 2d3 damage is actually not at all shabby - its better than a shortsword.

If someone had martial arts I would be happy to give them situational bonuses for surprise moves eg kicking someone while facing off sword to sword.

But generally weapons will be better because they provide a significant advantage - as a martial artist your first priority would be to disarm your opponent.

 

[t-tauri]

Your damage levels there are up with greatswords and Mostali gunpowder weapons. The Gloranthan martial artists who would have that kind of skill levels will have heroic abilities and Dragon powers which will make this irrelevant anyway.

Remember that most martial arts systems evolved among people who legally couldn't use weapons-Japanese and Chinese peasants and monks. With equal experience and training a warrior with a weapon should always beat someone without a weapon.

 

[simonh]

Grmph... that's later Glorantha when it got all YACAPE* and rubbish.

*Yet Another Cut And Pasted Earth

What a strange version of reality you live in. Have you read any of the recent background material such as The Imeprial Lunar Handbook detailing the Lunar religion? They're among the most creative and orriginal RPG suplements ever printed.

I've just finished reading the History of the Godlearners pre-finished work, which was put together as raw source material for Mongoose. If that's anything to go by the new fully fleshed out setting material will be very interesting.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Fiddler]

Hammerhand

Requirements: STR:15 or higher;CON:15 or higher and Martial Arts skill at 60%or higher.

Hero points: 10

With this Legendary Ability the character can use their Martial arts damage to cause greater damage to rigid inanimate objects(like walls and doors) andto cause greater amounts of distance for knockback.

When used agianst a rigid inanimate object M.A. damage is doubled.
When used agianst foes your M.A. damaged is tripled only for the purpose of using the knockback rule agianst your foe.

You may combine Hammerhand with a precise attack to damage weapons and armour. Your hand take no damage from what the character strikes when they use this ability.

My idea for Hammerhand was to create a few low powered legendary abilities for those characters who wanted to be martial artists. The players could only learn these abilities if they joined certain temples or monistaries in the game world.

 

[Adept]

It's always struck me that Martial Arts in RQ was stuck on as an afterthought, which is a shame as there are Gloranthan cultures with dedicated martial artists. It really should be a viable alternative to using a weapon, so here's my proposal. All comments and refinements to the system are very welcome.

As somebody who has studied both unarmed martial arts and historical european swordplay I have to say this is silly. Martal arts isn't a "viable alternative to using a weapon". First of all, swordsmanship is a martial art, and secondly, any unarmed fighing techniques used against armed opponents are meant for desperate situations where you've lost your weapon or are ambushed when you are without one. Designing a system on the principle that a skilled unarmed martial artist should be as dangerous as a skilled swordsman is pure hogwash.

Remember that historically a master swordsman is very, very dangerous even unarmed, or with a dagger, or when improvising with a chair.

 

[Gnarsh]

It's always struck me that Martial Arts in RQ was stuck on as an afterthought, which is a shame as there are Gloranthan cultures with dedicated martial artists. It really should be a viable alternative to using a weapon, so here's my proposal. All comments and refinements to the system are very welcome.

As somebody who has studied both unarmed martial arts and historical european swordplay I have to say this is silly. Martal arts isn't a "viable alternative to using a weapon". First of all, swordsmanship is a martial art, and secondly, any unarmed fighing techniques used against armed opponents are meant for desperate situations where you've lost your weapon or are ambushed when you are without one. Designing a system on the principle that a skilled unarmed martial artist should be as dangerous as a skilled swordsman is pure hogwash.

Ayup. It's a holdover to D&D monks and is silly IMO. RQ does not have "character classes". Let's try to avoid putting them back in...

In my campaign, we use an "advanced martial arts" system. It's pretty simple really. It's a series of skills that can be started when someone has a combat skill over 100% (any combat skill). The skills are learned in order with each new one learned as the last is mastered (reach 100%). The skills can be used with any combat skill that is over 100% (but only those skills). Each skill allows the character to gain extra capability when fighting. Some add to the combat result in some way, some are "general" and allow the martial artist to do something special during the round (like ignore facing minuses in combat for example).

We included skills like riposte (a successful parry under riposte skill allows a "free" attack back at the target one sr later. Attack is resolved using riposte skill instead of weapon skill), multi-strike (skill points can be divided among attacks anyway one wants instead of evenly. This does allow 5% "feights" if one wishes. Can also split attacks to strike the same opponent in a round), up to things like crushing strike (roll weapon damage twice and add together for damage, but capped at the max weapon value). Lots of other things that get progressively more powerful. Given the time required to get to the higher level skills, it would take a fair amount of dedication to master them all, but it is possible. The design of all the skills are to augment combat, but not replace them. A higher skilled opponent with more magic and/or more powerful weapons can still certainly defeat one.

And it is possible to be quite deadly with natural weapons using our system. When combined with the normal martial arts skill (and a few other house rules we use), hand to hand can be viable. Um... But everything else being equal, you're still going to be better off with a weapon.


It's a very simple system and can surely be adapted for MRQ.

 

[Enpeze]

It's always struck me that Martial Arts in RQ was stuck on as an afterthought, which is a shame as there are Gloranthan cultures with dedicated martial artists. It really should be a viable alternative to using a weapon, so here's my proposal. All comments and refinements to the system are very welcome.

As somebody who has studied both unarmed martial arts and historical european swordplay I have to say this is silly. Martal arts isn't a "viable alternative to using a weapon". First of all, swordsmanship is a martial art, and secondly, any unarmed fighing techniques used against armed opponents are meant for desperate situations where you've lost your weapon or are ambushed when you are without one. Designing a system on the principle that a skilled unarmed martial artist should be as dangerous as a skilled swordsman is pure hogwash.

/signed
absolutely correct. Everyone who practiced some martial arts in conjunction with weapon use like staff, dagger or sword can confirm this statement of adept.

Of course every GM has the choice not to depict reality. Instead he can choose to make the game more cinematic. He can allow weaponless combat to be be more efficient than in reality.

 

[mthomason]

Designing a system on the principle that a skilled unarmed martial artist should be as dangerous as a skilled swordsman is pure hogwash.

Well, unless your system is designed to run a Chinese Mythology setting, with people travelling around on clouds.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Designing a system on the principle that a skilled unarmed martial artist should be as dangerous as a skilled swordsman is pure hogwash.

Well, unless your system is designed to run a Chinese Mythology setting, with people travelling around on clouds.

Which is pretty much the feel I get from Kralorela, to be honest.

I'll admit, DnD Monks were my main inspiration, and the intention was totally to present a "hogwash" variant (think Jackie Chan, and amp it up a bit) on the more realistic Martial Arts.

 

[Eisho]

'Martial arts' (the empty handed variety) were designed to be used in conjunction with a weapon. What you see nowadays (including schools that use weapons) is not, for the most part, historically accurate. This is primarily because schools tend to focus on training people for one-on-one combat within a predefined set of rules that are determined by the art being studied. Fencing, to use a Western example, stops when a point is scored. Boxers are separated when they get into a clinch. Unarmed martial arts have only become popular when the quality, popularity and relevance of weapon arts have declined.

A more accurate portrayal of martial arts would include head butts, elbow and knee attacks and most definitely grappling (along with pommel strikes with swords and similar) to deal with the reality that once two (or more) people clash together without a decisve blow having been dealt (and sometimes even if a mortal blow has been dealt) the weapons, as you see them being flourished in most weapon based arts, become next to useless.

For example, the nose guards that appear on helmets (i.e. Norman helmets) were not to stop sword blows and so on; they were an integral design to prevent someone headbutting you in close combat and breaking your nose, causing your eyes to tear up and costing you your vision. A blinded combatant would obviously have his effectiveness seriously impaired.

I want to do a PDF on martial arts for RuneQuest. Would you be interested? (I also have a thread about a Far Eastern campaign setting).

Cheers,

Eisho

 

[atgxtg]

For example, the nose guards that appear on helmets (i.e. Norman helmets) were not to stop sword blows and so on; they were an integral design to prevent someone headbutting you in close combat and breaking your nose, causing your eyes to tear up and costing you your vision. A blinded combatant would obviously have his effectiveness seriously impaired.

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement? Pretty much everything I've seen on medieval combat refutes this. Particulary when you consider how hard it is to headbutt someone wielding a sword and kite shield-especially when he is mounted.

 

[Eisho]

Well, obviously it would take a superhuman to head butt an enemy mounted on a horse and the same would appear to be true for an enemy on foot wielding a sword and shield. It is a misconception however that combatants were always so-armed. A fighter could find himself without a sword or shield for a variety of reasons; a mounted soldier could find his mount slain or he could be dragged from his horse. This is the first distinction to be made between 'modern' representations of classical arts and the reality. In fencing, for example, both participants are equally armed and prepared.

On the battlefield this wasn't the case. The need for unarmed combat techniques for use by armed soldiers can be recorded back to the time of Alexander and the development of pankration and later Greco-Roman wrestling (though it is highly probably that unarmed fighting arts existed prior to this for similar reasons). Although both became 'sports' (bloody ones at that) their origins lie on the battlefield. The arts include, among other things, head butts, knee and elbow attacks and so on. Wrestling in particular was emphasised because this was how most individual combats ended (if a quick, initial killing blow wasn't delivered). Once combatants closed the weapon of first choice (usually a sword and/or spear) became all but redundant. Daggers were a much better option.

The nasal bar employed by the Normans was not the only facial protective feature ever developed by a culture. An investigation of the unarmed techniques used by the combatants of different cultures and at different times reveals that attacks to the face were likely if the face was unprotected. The head butt in fact could be a devastating attack when you consider the person doing it was probably himself wearing a helmet. Combatants, assuming both to be right-handed and still armed, would typically use their left hand to grasp and control the right wrist or the enemy, with the enemy doing likewise. So engaged, a head butt was a useful technique. Although I don't claim to have studied Norman armed or unarmed fighting techniques, I have studied Stav (the art of the vikings - and they use runes!!). The vikings also wore similar helms with nasal bars and a study of their fighting techniques indicates that this was in response to the threat of unarmed attacks primarily. Further: The face is not a primary target for a weapon for any weapon art that I am aware of.

The nasal bar could also protect against attacks made with the pommel or handle of a weapon (which in close quarters is far more likely to be used than the blade or the head or the weapon). Again, such attacks can be witnessed in arts that have survived the test of time but are also witnessed in watered-down 'safe' versions in modern martial arts based on battlefield arts. In kendo (the modern Japanese sword art) for example, when participants close they may thrust against the breast protector of their opponent using their fists and/or the pommel of the shinai (the bamboo sword) to force the opponent back and create space where the shinai can be used effectively. No harm is done, but this technique on the battlefield (where it originates) would have been directed upwards and into the face of the opponent. A shield itself, at close quarters, could be used to devastating effect as an offensive weapon.

The example I gave of the head butt is just one example of many (unarmed) attacks that could be directed at the face when combatants have closed and the primary weapon is redundant.

Cheers,

Eisho

 

[simonh]

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement? Pretty much everything I've seen on medieval combat refutes this. Particulary when you consider how hard it is to headbutt someone wielding a sword and kite shield-especially when he is mounted.

Obviously we're not talkign about mounted combat here, that's just a red herring.

Most actual battlefield combats were extremely close quarters scrummages with heaving masses of men jam packed together. Tightly packes phalanxes, Roman maiples , Norman shield walls or later pike blocks were the order of the day. Hollywod depictions where the front ranks break up completely when they're still 100 meters apart into loose man-on-man skirmishes are just ludicrous. I understand why they do it, but the reality was body-to-body crushes where you were as likely to smell you're oponent's bad breath as feel the tip of his sword. In situations like that, kicking and headbutting would be valuable options.


Simon Hibbs

 

[Archer]

Martial Arts Skill
Martial Arts is an Advanced Skill, and is based on DEX + POW - SIZ (it's as much a mental/spiritual discipline as it is a physical one, and large SIZ hampers the fast movements and freedom of movement required).

That I disagree upon. It all depends on which style of martial arts you are talking about. Some rely more on size (mass) than dexterity. If you are going to have different martial arts skills, then you should base them on different combinations, depending on the focus of the style.

Kyokushin karate (the style I have practiced) would rely on CON + DEX, or CON + STR, or CON + (STR+DEX/2). Being able to withstand pain is the foremost factor you train, speed and strength secondary, and being large is actually a big disadvantage since it gives you better reach and better punching and kicking power through mass.

Kung Fu though would probably be based on DEX + CON, as it relies on speed, agility and stamina.

Sumai (forefather of Sumo wrestling) would be based on SIZ + STR, as it relies on mass and strength.

 

[zanshin]

and being large is actually a big disadvantage since it gives you better reach and better punching and kicking power through mass.

I think you mean advantage

Kung Fu consists of too many styles to be pigeonholed.

I also think that when it comes to close combat being large is invariably an advantage, all other things being equal.