Maneuvers vs Feats

[AZZA]

One of the most inovative things I think the Mongoose guys did was introduce the idea of combat maneuvers in Conan. They seem to be being left a bit behind by the new books who seem to be introducing plenty of new feats but not much in the way of maneuvers. Maybe Across Thunder River or The Free Companies has some, but I was wondering if anyone had thought up there own.
How about this for an archery maneuver,

2 for 1 (Haven't decided on the name yet!!)
Prerequistes: BAB +6, Rapid Shot, Quick draw
Your second arrow is to the string and released a mere moment after the first. As long as you are firing both shots at the same target you may make two shots, both at -2, as a standard action.

As that too good for a maneuver? Anyone else got any?
Aaron

 

[SableWyvern]

I think that combat manoeuvres are something that shouldn't profliferate too much.

Many feats add complexity and decisions to levelling up and character generation, but don't have a huge impact in play, as they are acrued gradually, only affect the individuals that take them, and their effects are often subsumed into pre-existing rules (eg, a +2 to two skills isn't referenced in play, just included in the final bonuses).

Combat manoeuvres, on the other hand, each add yet another option into combat. Given that their pre-reqs often make them inevitable options, many will become available to most characters eventually, and too many will slow down play and increase the number of rules and exceptions to the rules that everyone needs to know.


As for your manoeuvre, it seems perhaps just a little on the too powerful side. Not much though, and possibly not enough to warrant changing it.

 

[InsomNY]

I certainly wouldn't allow it as a maneuver. In essence, you allow an archer to make a full attack as a standard action, without the -5 penalty for iterative attacks. Requiring the shots to both be at the same target isn't much of a requirement, since that is almost always going to be the case.

As a feat, it might be plausible. But I would crank the prerequisites way up.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that combat manoeuvres are something that shouldn't profliferate too much.

and

Combat manoeuvres, on the other hand, each add yet another option into combat. Given that their pre-reqs often make them inevitable options, many will become available to most characters eventually, and too many will slow down play and increase the number of rules and exceptions to the rules that everyone needs to know.

Your probably right. I just like the idea of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. I remember 3ED Oriental Adventures had I think it was styles? If you get this bunch of feats you get this bonus. I see combat maneuvers in the same way and think that some feats, Choke from 'The Road of Kings' and 'Kick down the door' come to mind that are of such limited versatility that with maybe a couple of more prereq could be maneuvers.

As for your manoeuvre, it seems perhaps just a little on the too powerful side. Not much though, and possibly not enough to warrant changing it.

and

I certainly wouldn't allow it as a maneuver. In essence, you allow an archer to make a full attack as a standard action, without the -5 penalty for iterative attacks. Requiring the shots to both be at the same target isn't much of a requirement, since that is almost always going to be the case.

As a feat, it might be plausible. But I would crank the prerequisites way up
.

Again your probably both right, especially in straight D20, but as the combat system in Conan is slightly different,(see the two weapon fighting and 5 foot step threads) with all the changes seeming to be in favour of melee combatants( the equivalent 6th level soldier could be attacking twice per round with his bardiche and twice per round unarmed for the cost of 2 of his feats) I'm not so sure giving the archer 2 shots is as powerful as it first seems.
Look like I might be the only one who likes maneuvers
Thanks for the feedback guys.
Aaron

 

[AZZA]

Whoops, that was me, forgot to log in..
Aaron

 

[SableWyvern]

Yeah, InsomnY has some good points, but so do you, AZZA.

Explains why I was hesitant in deciding how balanced I thought it was. One of my first thoughts when looking at the manoeuvre was that perhaps it should be raised to BAB +11 with a -5 penalty. That might go some way to alleviating the issues AZZA raised.

 

[InsomNY]

For the record, I love the idea of combat maneuvers; I lobbied to add them to our group's D&D games back in 3.0 in place of some feats, and I'm thrilled that they're a basic part of Conan. But as Wyvern said, too many maneuvers can make a battle bog down unless the GM is liberal in the application of his pimp-hand. :twisted: