Magic of Glorantha...Got Mine!!!

homerjsinnott said:
What you seem to be saying is that a hero IS a pale imitation of their god.

What about Snodal, Ethilrist, Argrath, Errinoru and Arkat? to name but a few (I know Arkat is a big problem). They all did things their Gods didn't, unless you start to really, really generalise.

Here's one way of looking at it:

Culture heroes are those that personify the myths and deities of the culture. A man who commands winds, has the virtues (and flaws) of Orlanth, and who can walk in the world of Myth as Orlanth is a culture hero. He embodies the hopes and dreams of his culture. In hero-quest this person would be a deciple.

A Gloranthan hero with a capital H usually means somebody who brings something unique to the above. Parhaps he/she discovers a new magical secret, or proves that somethign that has been thought to be impossible was actually doable. A Hero is somebody who doesn't just embody a deity, but who also does something unique.

Greg has put this very well many, many years ago. I wish I could remember where... Parhaps somebody more eloquent will continue to illuminate this.
 
Quintus said:
Where is the fun in knowing what the story is, and re-playing a pre-scripted event? Just to see and prove you have all that it takes to be a god-like beeing? This is redicilous...

Q...

Because you don't know what the story is, or at least not completly. You know sort of what should happen, roughly, just as when you watch Dr Who, or Star Trek, or Buffy, or Star Wars episode III you know sort of what will happen. What you don't know are the specific incidents, and how they will affect you and/or your community...

What follows is an old post from the Glorantha digest last year...

I'll take a well known RW myth as my starting point, so hopefully
everyone will be aware of at least one version of the story.

In this tale, the Hero (whose role will be taken by the questor) takes
the family cow to market, but instead of selling it for a good price he
exchanges it for a bag of "magic beans". These grow into a giant plant
which he is able to climb up, entering a land ruled by a powerful giant.
The hero is able to steal magic treasures sufficient to ensure the
survival of his family, but is discovered. He escapes back down the
beanstalk, followed by the Giant. He takes his axe from his mother and
cuts down the beanstalk, causing the Giant to fall to his death.

So how would we make a Heroquest of this? Break it down into stages
and see how much latitude we can build in to each stage.
_______________________________
Stage 1: Take the cow to market.
If this is a Heortling quest, you may have a choice of cows to
represent the lone cow of the quest. Do you take a young heifer, a
proven milk cow, an old cow reaching the end of her useful life, an
entire bull, or a plough ox. What you get out depends on what you put
in, so the ratings of later challenges might vary depending on what is
chosen, as might the rating of the benefit obtained. (Players should be
encouraged to think that this is the case, even if, in reality nothing
is changed. Someone can turn down the chance to buy the chosen animal
because they are looking for something else. The "old cow" will be the
hardest to sell, but is probably the (mythically) right choice.

Taking the cow to market is always running the risk of attack by
outside forces - Bandits, a rival clan on a cattle raid, Broo.
Obviously loosing the cow at this stage is likely to end the quest
immediately. (The horrific consequences of Broo managing to impregnate
the cow before being driven off is best left to the sadistic GM). You
might be able to rescue the quest if one of the attackers is
killed/captured and turns out to be in possession of the magic beans

Depending on your physical and/or political landscape you might
introduce other "mundane" challenges - a bridge is out or a ford
swollen. The route takes you through another clans tula (maybe it is
their market you are attending?) and you need to go through the greeting
ritual. A lunar patrol is encountered looking for rebels, or escorting
a tax collector who is interested in the ownership and value of the cow.
None of these should prevent the quest continuing...

Once you reach the market (assuming you do - see below) there
may be further requirements. The market might be controlled by Issaries
or Etyries traders who won't let anyone not affiliated to the cult enter
as a trader. Joining either cult is easy, but will obviously have
repercussions later on. Failing to enter the market need not result in
failure of the quest. In some versions of the tale, the cow is sold on
the road - maybe on the way to market, or maybe on the way home again...
________________________
Stage 2: Selling the Cow
Obviously the whole success of the quest revolves around selling
the cow for magic beans. The "standard myth" suggests the purchaser will
be an old woman (In a Gloranthan context I'd guess an Earth Priestess)
but there are a number of alternatives which can be offered. The players
must decide whether to accept any particular offer, since there is no
guarantee that the "correct" purchaser will turn up. Assuming that the
GM actually wants to continue the quest#, possibilities include
* An elf offers to trade the cow for an Acorn - This will grow into a
giant Oak, which can be climbed like the beanstalk, but will prove
harder to cut down.
* A Goose-girl offers to trade the cow for a basket of eggs. One of the
eggs will hatch into a giant goose which can carry the questor to the
castle in the clouds. Of course getting down again might prove more
difficult...
* A crazed-looking Shaman offers to trade the cow for a spirit-bag that
he claims contains wealth charms. Amongst the items in there are the
magic beans.
* A Pol-Joni Kahn offers to trade the cow for something to aid the
fertility of the heroes fields. It is a cart of manure. (getting the
cart home after you've sold your cow is your problem!). It will (or
can) have the desired effect, providing you spread it on a field with an
appropriate crop (Jack & the Rhubarb, anyone).
* A Mostali offers to trade the cow for large boulder (again,
transporting it home now you have no cow might prove problematic).
Placed on the ground it starts to sink in, and in the morning a tunnel
is found which descends to a magical kingdom ruled by a ferocious Giant
(or ferocious giant troll...) Events can continue much as before,
although again escaping from the Giant at the end might prove more
problematic
* A final possibility (although I'm sure you can all think of plenty of
others!) is that the hero needs to make a multi-transaction deal,
selling the cow to one party and purchasing the beans from another, with
as many intervening steps as you find fun. This might be particularly
appropriate for an Issaries hero.


#Obviously the GM can always make any choice that does not involve
trading the cow to an old lady for beans "the wrong choice" and choose
to end the quest there as a failure for the questor and deal with the
consequences thereof. However if you can present them with a variation
of the story where their choices do matter then (hopefully) it will
encourage them to think about their choices and what they might mean in
future, but still be prepared to make the stories their own, without you
needing to be prepared for half a dozen widely differing adventures
depending on what they choose.
_________________________________
Stage 3 - Enter the Magic Kingdom
...By climbing the beanstalk, or other appropriate method as
determined by the results of the previous stage. While technically this
should be a task no self respecting hero can fail (there wouldn't be
much of a story if Jack fell off after climbing 10 feet...) I think you
do need a roll here, failure indicating how difficult the climb was and
reducing the time the hero has to search for treasure and the amount
they can successfully bring down.
There is, again, the possibility to have opponents try and
disrupt the climb, or cut down the beanstalk before the hero returns...
___________________________________
Stage 4 - Explore the Magic Kingdom
If the questor doesn't go straight to the castle then they are
into the realms of experimental heroquesting, as the myths tell us
nothing about the Giants realm, so the GM is free to throw anything at
them.
Entering the castle might be as simple as walking through the
open door, or might involve sneaking past guards, climbing through
windows, or fooling magic door-knockers into revealing the password.
Failing at any part of this stage can lead to the PC being
captured by the Giant's minions and imprisoned in the castle - now all
he needs to do (all!) is escape and make off with a treasure to get back
on track.

___________________________
Stage 5 - Gain the treasure
There are a number of versions of the myth with different
treasures - The goose that lays golden eggs (you might get a bonus here
if you arrived on the back of a goose...). The Harp that plays itself
(Important if the hero's clan is seeking to restore/ensure harmony). The
kidnapped princess, bags of cash. In fact you could place any treasure
or treasures in the giants lair. My preference would be to have
multiple treasures, but limit the amount the hero can take, so as to
force him to choose between them. This is where the results of stages 3
and 4 are important, if too much time was wasted getting here then there
will be less time to investigate and take treasure before the Giant
wakes and comes looking for you. Also the more you take the more
difficult escaping will be. If you want a "Heroquest Challenge" with
the player gambling some ability of their own then this is where it
would take place. Maybe stake your "sneaky, thiefy" type abilities to
steal treasure?
Failing to gain any treasure is pretty much failing the quest,
but you still have the chance to escape with your life...

_________________________________
Stage 6 - Escape with the treasure
Fee Fi Fo Fum... The giant awakes and detects the hero, and
starts to chase him back home. The more treasure the hero is carrying
the greater the penalty he will be under. Of course he can always
choose to discard treasures along the way to lighten his load (and maybe
cause the Giant to pause to collect them). In this case there should be
a definite downside at the end of the quest for failing to bring the
item back, even if the quest was otherwise successful. (So if the
primary object of the quest was to improve clan wealth by gaining the
goose that lays golden eggs, and the questor got greedy and also tried
to bring the harp, but discarded it halfway home then there should be a
noticeable increase in strife in subsequent years. Alternatively if the
object was the harp and the goose discarded then although peace is more
prevalent the questor's clan suffers an economic setback - you get the
idea).
________________________
Stage 7 - Kill the Giant.
Assuming you climbed the Beanstalk, all you have to do is cut it
down on your return. If he makes it down, you'll have to fight him,
which should be a difficult fight (if it isn't then there was no need to
run away in the first place) and there will be collateral damage to the
clan tula when the quest is over (or maybe the arrival of a Giant or
similar large monster. If you used another method as a result of stage
2, you'll need an alternative. Hopefully the player(s) will have
considered this and planned ahead...

________________________________________
Adapting the quest for multiple questors
The first option is to allow multiple questors to escort the cow
to market, while 1 person has the responsibility for actually trading,
and have one person climb the beanstalk while the others protect the
base from opponents seeking to disrupt the quest (another time limit on
the treasure grab...)
On the other hand British panto tradition allows for all sorts
of people to follow Jack up the beanstalk in order to perform all the
regular comedy routines in the castle (He's behind you!) and require
rescuing, so there is a precedent for more than one questor to climb the
beanstalk. In this case you probably need to limit the magical benefit
of the quest to a single item, otherwise it is likely to be too
generous. On the other hand a group of questors allows a wider variety
of challenges, so as to allow everyone their "moment of glory".


Now all that's required is a Gloranthan version of Jack & The
Beanstalk...
(Saint Jack the Giant-slayer? One of the Thunder Brothers sent to
negotiate a brideprice for Uralda, and being tricked into accepting
beans by Eurmal?)
 
To draw a kind of parallel between real world and the Glorantha:

My Nephew is partaking in the Nativity as Joseph- the nativity pretty much conforms to a hero-quest. Not sure what benefits are attained other reinforcement of faith (taking a gamish view)

On the mundane level Heroquests are Mystery Plays/Religous experiences bound in their specific cultures and myths.
What the god learners are doing is basically abhorent to all the other cultures in Glorantha... no believers raping their myths and beliefs.

Instead of preserving the balance and 'Compromise' they're threatening it by their lack of respect for the myths and their greed.

Just wondering what impact the GL experiments have on the current myths - they are working changes in the Mythic world so in theory the traditionalist Hero Questors may find their Myths/stations on their quests changed by those mendling GL.

Which gets away from the 'scripted' play through, as you could have Traditionalist players trying to correct the damage inflicted to their Myths...

Just a few thoughts and beer fevered ravings :)
 
Real World rituals do have some effect, personally and socially, althought they clearly lack the magical powers of Gloranthan ones.

Nativity Plays are performed throughout the Christian World and can help the participants understand the meaning of Christmas.

In America, there are Thanksgiving re-enactments where the Founding Fathers are portrayed. This reinforces the original story, sets it in the minds of a new generation and lets them think of how those events could affect them.

In Northern Ireland, there are series of Parades that reinforce the victory of Orange over Stuart. They strengthen the sectarianism and mark out territorial claims, reinforcing those claims in the minds of both participants and viewers.

Shia Muslims scourge their skin on certain holy days, to remind them of suffering (I think) - but this reinforces their own individual faith and that of onlookers.

Some Christians undergo crucifixion to try and experience the suffering and gain a religious experience.

In England we have Pantomimes that are performed every year. They reinforce the stories in a very formal way.

If you think these aren't really important, have a look at the problems caused when the Orangemen marches were stopped in the 90s. They had riots for weeks. Now, multiply that because the whole community is doing these quests and add on the magical element and it becomes even more important.
 
richaje said:
I hate to tell you guys but the God Plane/Sorcery Node/Spirit World differences have been around in Greg's writing for a long time. Perhaps the worst thing that happened to Heroquesting was when Greg and Sandy played around with Heroquests as "Super Runequest" back in the early 80s with drek like Alebard's Quest. The very best material on Gloranthan heroquests is contained in Greg's new "Harmastsaga" book - which is unfortunately currently available only to subscribers to Friends of Glorantha. However, the Unfinished Work "Arcane Lore" gives some pretty good background on heroquests.

Arcane Lore has a lot of good stuff on HeroQuests and pretty much skips over planes, nodes and suchlike. OK, it mentions them, but the myths and how they can be interacted with is far more important.

richaje said:
Fwiw, I have long believed that heroquests are a not a "rules issue" - they are a plot and campaign issue. New rules are not necessary to run a heroquesting session - heroquests are a matter of imitating the actions of the gods in circumstances conducive for such imitation. In other words, the gamemaster and the players need to know the myth that the participants are trying to reenact and then try to reenact that myth in the Otherworld.

That was the point I was trying to make.

You need the myths and a way to interact with them. You also need a way to gain some benefit from them and also to measure how well you did in the Quest. Those are rules-issues, but the underlying story and HeroQuest Framework are not rules related at all.

richaje said:
Just to show how a heroquest can look in a campaign, here is David Dunham's writeup of a heroquest performed in our Seattle Farmers house campaign. Although we used the HeroQuest rules, the same heroquest could have been run using MRQ (I think Aaron's heroquesting section is pretty darn good) or even PenDragon Pass.

In fact, it could have been run with RQ2/3 as well. It's just a story, after all.

richaje said:
Sorry this was a long post, but I think it is worth showing folk an example of a heroquest in game play. I'd model it slightly differently using the MRQ rules, but the basic story would still be the same. Hope this helps -

And not a Gate or Plane in sight.
 
soltakss said:
And not a Gate or Plane in sight.

Not that I mean to interrupt your axe-grinding on this subject, but my understanding of HeroQuesting beyond the bare mentions in RQ2 and 3 is almost entirely drawn from the Big G explaining it to me a couple of months ago when I was writing MoG, as well as Robin Laws' G:tSA book.

Now, I get that you don't seem to dig that the God Learners call, say, an Orlanthi holy site 'a gate' into the Hero Planes, and you're obviously not thrilled with Robin Laws' definitions of the planes in G:tSA, but this sorta strikes me as another 'I've never viewed Glorantha that way so therefore it's been done wrong in MRQ' things.

What would your solution be to bringing things back into alignment with your personal vision? Because if I'm ever writing a HeroQuesting/Pantheon book, or more specific God Learner Sorcery stuff (and I expect I'll get the chance to do both) then I'm just as interested in your take on it as I am in the opinion of some nice guy emailing me to say he liked what I already did, f'rex.
 
Dead Blue Clown said:
Not that I mean to interrupt your axe-grinding on this subject, but my understanding of HeroQuesting beyond the bare mentions in RQ2 and 3 is almost entirely drawn from the Big G explaining it to me a couple of months ago when I was writing MoG, as well as Robin Laws' G:tSA book.

Now, now, I'm not grinding anything, except perhaps my teeth.

Two posts makes it axe-grinding (ok, three now)? I thought I'd have to threadjack for that.

Dead Blue Clown said:
Now, I get that you don't seem to dig that the God Learners call, say, an Orlanthi holy site 'a gate' into the Hero Planes, and you're obviously not thrilled with Robin Laws' definitions of the planes in G:tSA, but this sorta strikes me as another 'I've never viewed Glorantha that way so therefore it's been done wrong in MRQ' things.

Not at all.

I don't like the way that HeroQuest does it, either. Too formal, too many barriers, too many planes, nodes, gates and so on. It's not flexible enough for me. And don't get me started on the Colliding Worlds Model .....

I did "dig" that a Gate is just a way into the Hero Plane via a nearby Holy Site and I understand what the different planes are about.

Sure, it's easier to start a HeroQuest at a recognised Holy Place or at a Temple, but you should be able to start one anywhere. The Godlearners can access the Holy Sites and Temples using their Gates, fair enough, but it shouldn't be the only way onto a HeroQuest.

Dead Blue Clown said:
What would your solution be to bringing things back into alignment with your personal vision? Because if I'm ever writing a HeroQuesting/Pantheon book, or more specific God Learner Sorcery stuff (and I expect I'll get the chance to do both) then I'm just as interested in your take on it ...

No need to be sarcastic.

I've always liked Rules-lite HeroQuests, where you don't have a fixed chance to get onto the HeroPlane, where you don't have to pass through barriers by overcoming some nebulous obstacle, where you don't have HeroQuest skills to overcome foes.

I prefer the storytelling type of HeroQuest where you get onto the HeroPlane by performing a ceremony, where you pass through different barriers by defeating the guardians, tricking your way past or getting through another way and where you defeat HeroQuest foes with your own skills and magic, rather than using specific general HeroQuest skills.

Now, I know that Godlearners do have their specific HeroQuest abilities, which means they can defeat foes who don't have them and that's fair enough. But, I'd prefer HeroQuesting without them, to be honest.

I'm not saying you are wrong, far from it. I was originally responding to the point that someone made that we can now use RQ for HeroQuesting, something I've been doing for a long time.

Sure, there are new powerrules for HeroQuesting and I expect to see more of them, as skills, Legendary Abilities and spells. But, the Godlearners fell down because they were using such techniques, which might indicate how right/wrong they were. :D

Carry on writing your stuff - you're the RPG author.

I'm just a fan who has an overlong lunchbreak, an unmoderated PC and too much time on his hands.

Dead Blue Clown said:
as I am in the opinion of some nice guy emailing me to say he liked what I already did, f'rex.

Ah, so I'm not nice, now. That's a shame, I always thought I was. My Mum won't be very pleased.

What's your email address? If I send you an email saying I liked what you have done, does that make me nice again? Please?
 
Anyway it isn't because heroquesting is a reenactment of gods former deeds that it must happen the same way all the time.
It all depends on current conditions, events and possible interfering (i.e. chaos or ennemy or other heroquesters) and many other facts.

For example it is not because you perform the same harvest ritual the same way every year that you will be successful the same way. There are a lot of things, even natural one, which can bring effort to nought: a fire, but also freezing nights. You may even succeed very well in your quest but it can be not sufficient on the mortal world to counter negative events.

I think all these interactions, as well as the heroquests themselves, are very clearly explained in the video game "King of dragon pass". This game is an invaluable source to understand a heroquest but also why heroes go on heroquests at all. That is it's not just to bring back a magic item from the plane, but because there is a need of this.

Only the god learners used heroquests for selfish purpose (i.e. using the wand of Orcus to achieve greater personnal power).
 
I don't like the way that HeroQuest does it, either. Too formal, too many barriers, too many planes, nodes, gates and so on. It's not flexible enough for me. And don't get me started on the Colliding Worlds Model .....

Again, not to be argumentative but the "Colliding Worlds Model" has been around since the days of Cults of Terror - just not well expressed. I usually make my players roll against some sort of skill in order to cross over to the Otherworld - unless they are crossing over at a special place or involuntarily - but mainly because it makes them feel better. I should seem "hard" to cross over - although if they do plenty of preparation (scores of worshipers, right ceremonial accouterments, sanctified location, etc.) then it will likely happen.

Sure, it's easier to start a HeroQuest at a recognised Holy Place or at a Temple, but you should be able to start one anywhere. The Godlearners can access the Holy Sites and Temples using their Gates, fair enough, but it shouldn't be the only way onto a HeroQuest.

Agreed but a holy place or other magical site is the only place you are likely to have much control over whether you enter the Otherworld. But remember, there are plenty of holy places and magical sites everywhere. Heck, any high hill or mountain is a holy place to Orlanth. Frex, Harmast started his Lightbringers Quests from the same hill that Orlanth did. And remember, if I am an Orlanthi and I wanted to enter into Yelm's Palace - I can do that through a Dara Happan temple to Yelm (though I might have to deal with the Dara Happans who might try to stop me).

I've always liked Rules-lite HeroQuests, where you don't have a fixed chance to get onto the HeroPlane, where you don't have to pass through barriers by overcoming some nebulous obstacle, where you don't have HeroQuest skills to overcome foes.

I prefer the storytelling type of HeroQuest where you get onto the HeroPlane by performing a ceremony, where you pass through different barriers by defeating the guardians, tricking your way past or getting through another way and where you defeat HeroQuest foes with your own skills and magic, rather than using specific general HeroQuest skills.

I am in full agreement with you. This is how I run heroquests - and for what it is worth, this is how Greg runs heroquests (for instance Greg and I recently wrote the heroquest by which King Broyan - a Third Age Orlanthi Hero - obtained the Sword and Helm of Vingkot). Heroquests are not well suited for heavy rules - they need to be as flexible and variable as mythological itself.

Now, I know that Godlearners do have their specific HeroQuest abilities, which means they can defeat foes who don't have them and that's fair enough. But, I'd prefer HeroQuesting without them, to be honest.

I would prefer to Heroquest as a traditionalist - and not a God Learner! Sure I might be able to loot the corpses of the God Wars (instead of participating in the myths) and get extremely powerful or useful items. But I know what awaits the God Learners, and wouldn't want to be in their shoes!

Jeff
 
My Nephew is partaking in the Nativity as Joseph- the nativity pretty much conforms to a hero-quest. Not sure what benefits are attained other reinforcement of faith (taking a gamish view)

On the mundane level Heroquests are Mystery Plays/Religous experiences bound in their specific cultures and myths.

This is absolutely correct! In fact, this is why every worship ceremony is a type of Heroquest. The worshipers cross over to the other side and participate in the events of the gods. However, normally the worshipers have the role of supporters. A heroquester is one who tries to take the role of the god and reenact its deeds in the Otherworld. So in a sense, your nephew is heroquesting as Joseph. Not a terribly active role - obviously most heroquesters would seek to be Mary!

What the god learners are doing is basically abhorent to all the other cultures in Glorantha... no believers raping their myths and beliefs.

Instead of preserving the balance and 'Compromise' they're threatening it by their lack of respect for the myths and their greed.

Spot on right.

Just wondering what impact the GL experiments have on the current myths - they are working changes in the Mythic world so in theory the traditionalist Hero Questors may find their Myths/stations on their quests changed by those mendling GL.

Which gets away from the 'scripted' play through, as you could have Traditionalist players trying to correct the damage inflicted to their Myths...

This is definitely going on. Here's a little blurb from The Middle Sea Empire:

"After a century of blasting their way around the Hero Planes, subtly changing denizens around in, stealing equipment and artifacts and generally wreaking havoc; the Hero Planes had begun to take on a difference from their original nature. By comparing the original exploratory reports with the observations of their current pilots, scholars discerned that they had made permanent changes in the Hero Planes. This was taken to be a sign of success and the Church celebrated progress towards their stated ends of destroying the non-sorcerous Otherworlds and integrating them into the True World."

For more, I recommend just buying a copy of the Middle Sea Empire.

Jeff
 
Seriously, Sol, it was honestly not my intent to be barbed and dickish there. Except that part about axe-grinding. That sentence? Yeah, that was me being bitchy. I apologise for that, it was uncalled-for, and it wasn't actually as funny as it sounded to me when I typed it.

But I wasn't being sarcastic, man. I asked you for your take because you're a smart dude and I wanted to know what was in your head. You probably don't realise how valuable posters like you, Rurik, etc. actually are for me. I can name maybe 8-10 names on here that (along with 'behind the scenes' people like Voriof, Richaje and Herr Stafford) are basically my biggest connection to Glorantha, outside of my own head or my RPG group. So let me be clear: you post a bunch and I eat that stuff up almost every time.

And you are nice. That part you quoted wasn't me saying you weren't a nice guy - it was me genuinely saying your take on jazz might be different, but to me it's as valid as Insert Random Person saying my stuff was great, or whatever other opinions get ventured.

Crossed wires: the inevitable communication-based bane of the internet.

And now? A cup of tea.
 
The King said:
I think all these interactions, as well as the heroquests themselves, are very clearly explained in the video game "King of dragon pass". This game is an invaluable source to understand a heroquest but also why heroes go on heroquests at all. That is it's not just to bring back a magic item from the plane, but because there is a need of this.

The King is absolutely correct! I strongly encourage anyone who is interested in how traditionalists approach heroquesting to go to http://www.a-sharp.com/ and get a copy of Taming of Dragon Pass. David Dunham (the game designer) is part of our little Seattle Farmers roleplaying group and captured the feeling of our Taming of Dragon Pass game spectacularly with this game! Besides, the art is spectacular!

Jeff
 
richaje said:
The King is absolutely correct! I strongly encourage anyone who is interested in how traditionalists approach heroquesting to go to http://www.a-sharp.com/ and get a copy of Taming of Dragon Pass. David Dunham (the game designer) is part of our little Seattle Farmers roleplaying group and captured the feeling of our Taming of Dragon Pass game spectacularly with this game! Besides, the art is spectacular!
Jeff

Didn't DHL or UPS loose the last box or something making the game OOP.
 
I'm still not done with the book, holidays and all getting in the way of my reading, and so far I like alot of what I've read, and of the parts I like I tend to like a lot, definately beerworthy, BUT...

... am I the only one who thinks the rule where you get penalized for criticalling on a Dragon Magic spell test is daft?

Am I missing something, or is the only difference between a normal success and a critical success that the caster loses a point of his Draconic Illumination on a critical and not on a normal?

I mean, this goes against the very foundation of the core game mechanic.

I understand why this was chosen - it gives odds that feel right (a 10% chance of this happening on a successful check) but there has to be a better way of representing Losing the Path.
 
Rurik said:
I'm still not done with the book, holidays and all getting in the way of my reading, and so far I like alot of what I've read, and of the parts I like I tend to like a lot, definately beerworthy, BUT...

... am I the only one who thinks the rule where you get penalized for criticalling on a Dragon Magic spell test is daft?

Am I missing something, or is the only difference between a normal success and a critical success that the caster loses a point of his Draconic Illumination on a critical and not on a normal?

I mean, this goes against the very foundation of the core game mechanic.

I understand why this was chosen - it gives odds that feel right (a 10% chance of this happening on a successful check) but there has to be a better way of representing Losing the Path.

You lose a point of Draconic Illumination on critical, but don't have to spend the magic points. It's very powerful.
The game mechanic is clear: the more you get draconised, the more you have to lost. Imagine a character with 2000% in Draconic Illumination. Critical is automatic. So if decide to use magic, he can use a lot as he will not have to supply MP, but each spell will cost him some illumination.
It is said that the chance for critical is computed before applying any malus, so you cannot take volontary malus to keep your Draconic Illumination intact.
 
There's an error in Royal Grace (p 39-40). The example should indicate a penalty of 14 % to Influence.

The fans of Humakt should take a look at the Flay Soul spell (p 38 ).
 
Yoda300 said:
Rurik said:
I'm still not done with the book, holidays and all getting in the way of my reading, and so far I like a lot of what I've read, and of the parts I like I tend to like a lot, definitely beerworthy, BUT...

... am I the only one who thinks the rule where you get penalized for criticalling on a Dragon Magic spell test is daft?

Am I missing something, or is the only difference between a normal success and a critical success that the caster loses a point of his Draconic Illumination on a critical and not on a normal?

I mean, this goes against the very foundation of the core game mechanic.

I understand why this was chosen - it gives odds that feel right (a 10% chance of this happening on a successful check) but there has to be a better way of representing Losing the Path.

You lose a point of Draconic Illumination on critical, but don't have to spend the magic points. It's very powerful.
The game mechanic is clear: the more you get draconised, the more you have to lost. Imagine a character with 2000% in Draconic Illumination. Critical is automatic. So if decide to use magic, he can use a lot as he will not have to supply MP, but each spell will cost him some illumination.
It is said that the chance for critical is computed before applying any malus, so you cannot take volontary malus to keep your Draconic Illumination intact.

Hmmm. You may be right about not losing Magic Points. The Bullet List of results on page 25 seems to support this. I read the text on page 27 a couple of times and never got that Critical Success didn't cost MP, it says the spell succeeds and also results in Losing the Path - I had assumed that success included spending the MP.

Even if it does not cost MP I would usually prefer to spend temporary MP that come back than permanent skill points.

Basically there are a four results to a casting a spell. Success, Failure, a Little Bad Thing (Losing the Path) and a Big Bad Thing (Backlash). The little bad thing occurs on a Critical, which goes against the grain of the system. Good things should happen on criticals.

And though you can argue that in some (many) cases saving the MP is preferable to the player, it is never the result a true Dragonspeaker would want. It could even be argued that Losing the Path is worse than Backlash - Backlash only results in losing a physical characteristic and being all messed up for a bunch of hours while Losing the Path sets back your spiritual growth. Bad ju-ju indeed.

I admit the mechanic as presented works very well mathematically to represent the risks of Draconic Magic, but it feels so wrong to be penalized for a critical.
 
Rurik said:
I admit the mechanic as presented works very well mathematically to represent the risks of Draconic Magic, but it feels so wrong to be penalized for a critical.

see it this way. They are screwing around with how things ought to work, and that has consequences when you tap a bit too deeply into the honeyjar of "stuff man wasnt supposed to do"
 
Not to be all negative: Eternal thanks for returning the Klanth to respectability as a Weapon. The paltry damage in Monsters is pitiful.

Now if we could just get a proper illustration of one...
 
Rurik said:
And though you can argue that in some (many) cases saving the MP is preferable to the player, it is never the result a true Dragonspeaker would want. It could even be argued that Losing the Path is worse than Backlash - Backlash only results in losing a physical characteristic and being all messed up for a bunch of hours while Losing the Path sets back your spiritual growth. Bad ju-ju indeed.
While I've not got the book in question, this mechanic sounds absolutely ideal to me. The whole point of Dragon Magic (including that used by dragonewts as well as the EWF) is that actually using it is a bad idea. It causes entanglement with the world - and the better you get, the greater the risk. The more successful the spell is, the bigger its effect on the world, and so the more damage it does to your state of detachment from mundane reality. Penalising the magician's skill if they critical represents this perfectly.

So the really powerful dragon magicians are scared to use the slightest fraction of their power, because it represents backsliding...
 
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