Magic of Glorantha...Got Mine!!!

[CharlieMonster]

The fans of Humakt should take a look at the Flay Soul spell (p 38 ).

Yes I too noticed Sever Spirit hinding behind a dodge moustache and large plastic spectacles! :lol:

 

[ninthcouncil]

The fans of Humakt should take a look at the Flay Soul spell (p 38 ).

Yes I too noticed Sever Spirit hinding behind a dodge moustache and large plastic spectacles! :lol:

Just to annoy those dour Humakti, these are now material components for the casting! However, the dodge moustache, a new magic item, does just what it says - adds +10% to your dodge as your opponent is distracted by your luxuriant facial furniture.

 

[homerjsinnott]

I've been thinking about heroquests a lot and here is a quick question for everyone (I have lots of other stuff to talk about but this will do for the mo).


My Yelmalian heroquester, Jarrow Noonstar, is battling ZZ. He knows that his god lost the fight, what should he do? Fight half heartedly? If he starts winning, throw in the towel? are his intentions more important than the final outcome?

Another example, what if my god is supposed to be outsmarted by someone in a myth, should my character play dumb?

 

[The King]

My Yelmalian heroquester, Jarrow Noonstar, is battling ZZ. He knows that his god lost the fight, what should he do? Fight half heartedly? If he starts winning, throw in the towel? are his intentions more important than the final outcome?

Another example, what if my god is supposed to be outsmarted by someone in a myth, should my character play dumb?

My opinion: running a heroquest where your god is the loser would just add difficulty to the quest. If the hero wins, well he will be praised by all his communities and be considered a great hero who recovered the stolen fire.
Such a heroquest should be easier to perform for consecutive Yelmalians. Though you can't change the past (since it is now the past due to the non egagement rule of Arachne Solara), you can change the present.

You can consider this quest another way: just imagine you perform a heroquest for a good harvest (Ernalda). You may loose and win, with several graduations of each results, and this determine then more or less the consequences for the year to come (because there is only one harvest period per year). In any case, you'll have to perform it again before the next harvest as if you would begin it for the first time.

The same applies to Yelmalio though it is different: if you win you don't need to perform it again for some time because the fire you own could be granted for one year (from the time being to the end of the next fire season). Of course you should have less difficulty to perform this quest in the fire season than in the storm season where the trolls are stronger.

The only difference between these mortal quests and the deeds of the gods is that the gods did it once, while mortal can do it several times just because of the time flowing without end.

 

[Voriof]

Can anyone find Greg's essay on what happens if you 'win' a contest your god is supposed to lose? Twas funny and insightful and far more eloquent than I'll ever be.

Jeff

 

[homerjsinnott]

My question isn't so much about the outcome of the contest, but about how you approach it. In the myth the god tried with all their might to win said contest, but your heroquester has two options, to emulate the God in thought or in deed. One may lead to the other, but they might not...

 

[The King]

I guess you might be somewhat apprehensive to perform a heroquest you god has lost but the question is: would you do it if you would be sure to loose in the contest? The purpose of a hero is to somehow draw the attention of his god on himself or on his community. Of course, some gods might become jealous of the hero's success (i.e. the Greek gods) but most people wouldn't think of it beforehand as the act mostly to please their god and suit their ways of life.

 

[The King]

Can anyone find Greg's essay on what happens if you 'win' a contest your god is supposed to lose? Twas funny and insightful and far more eloquent than I'll ever be.

Jeff

I don't know if I ever read the article (where is it to be found?) but there is some incongruity if you can't win in quests that your god lost while you may loose in quests he/she succeeded in.
It's just because the hero is mortal (i.e. with his way of acting being different than if he were immortal) that he might succeed where the god didn't. Again in the greek myths, the gods with all their powers needed somehow the mortals because the latter could act the way they (the gods) couldn't and thus perform acts and deeds they were unable to do, the first of them being worship and sacrifice for example as no god could received such honor from his brethen.

 

[Stormwalker]

My Yelmalian heroquester, Jarrow Noonstar, is battling ZZ. He knows that his god lost the fight, what should he do? Fight half heartedly? If he starts winning, throw in the towel? are his intentions more important than the final outcome?

I would say that you should try your hardest to win the fight - Yelmalio didn't throw in the towel so neither should you. However, the odds should be really stacked against you winning as per the result of the original myth (give the ZZ foe some large bonuses or something). If you want to win I think it should be because you did something new or unexpected - i.e. you introduced a change to the myth, rather than just used raw power (However having said that it's possible to draw specific foes into a heroquest, even against their will, so perhaps you could enact one to pick on a relatively weak ZZ opponent... )

 

[soltakss]

I knew of a Yelmalian who did the Hill of Gold, beat up Zorak Zoran, then dropped his weapons and surrendered to the beaten foe. Thus, he did his best, showed he was a better fighter and then showed he was superior and sacrificed himself.

I can't see how any self-respecting Yelmalioan could just give in without a fight, especially if he was geased to challenge Darkness Foes/Worshippers of Zorak Zoran.

The point of the Hill of Gold, if you complete it as it is supposed to be done, is to survive being beaten completely. Very difficult for a warrior cult. Yelmlaina jokes about bravery aside, they would try to defeat Orlanth and Zorak Zoran, two cult enemies/rivals, and try to not get eaten by the chaos beasties. Most Yelmalian HeroQuestors on the Hill of Gold try for a lesser result - not losing their Fire, not losing to Orlanth, being seduced by Inora, not being eaten by the chaos beasties. So, they don't end up immortal but they have an easier quest and a more immediate result.

 

[The King]

A question for the expert(s): is it possible to start up a brand new quest, e.g. as a Yelmalian hero to go underground and steal the fire from the ZZ trolls?

 

[soltakss]

I'm no expert, but yes.

What would happen is the Questor would start a quest, go to Zorak Zoran's Hall of Fire in Hell, defeat the Guardians, perhaps even Zorak Zoran himself, and then return with the fire.

He could then keep the fire for himself, give it to others, teach others how to get the fire themselves, create a HeroCult of Yelmalio that enables Yelmalian members to have Fire Magic or some or all of the above.

Of course, it would be difficult ...

The easiest way to do a new quest is to stitch together bits of old quests and use those stations as a framework for the new quest. So, he could find a quest where Yelmlaio went into Hell, a quest where Yelmalio beat Zorak Zoran or some Darkness Demigod, a quest where someone stole fire and another quest where someone returned from Hell. Then he'd perform the quest, change the stations where possible and return from Hell bearing fire.

The hard way wouold be to go to Hell and see what happens, winging it. After all, Hell is full of unprepared HeroQuestors.

He could always do the Quest again, with different results. The first time he could get fire for himself. The second time he could give it to his companions. The third time he could teach others how to do it. The fourth time he could give it to others and the fifth time he could give it to Yelmalio (creating a HeroCult in the process). It would not necessarily get easier each time, as the power level would be higher, the opponents would be used to how he did it and may even be the same opponents, so they could have found out how to counter his quests and he could have gained HeroQuest vulnerabilities or geases that make questing harder.

So, a quick example off the top of my head. He could start off on Yelm's Descent to Hell, then jump to Caladra's visit to the Palace of Black Glass, then jump to Eurmal's freeing of the Lowfires, then jump to Yelmalio Defeats Darkness Demigod (this could be tricky, did he defeat any?) then jump to Yelm's Return to the Surface. So, he is using Yelm's HeroQuest of Descending into Hell and returning with many stations missed out and others inserted. Along the way, he may have problems - he doesn't have Caladra's Harp of Harmony so can't try and persuade Argan Agar to help him; Argan Argar is a known defeater of Fire, so he may just defeat Yelmalio instead; since the Harp of Harmony didn't crack open the Castle of Black Glass, Eurmal would have to find another way in. Yelmalio would have to find a way to persuade Eurmal to help him, he must defeat the Darkness Demigod, but this demigod would have Amanstan's powers and be able to burn him as well as freeze him or scare him or hit him with a club. Then he has to defeat the Guardians of Hell to return.

Add to that the fact that he has to research the Quest, possibly previously accompanying other questors on parts of the quest, to get a feel for it. He may have to do this in other cults, for instance Caladra, Yelm and Lodril, so he must persuade them to help him. Then he has to perform the quest and accept any consequences. He might end up indebted to Eurmal or married to Caladra, he might be enslaved by Argan Argar, he might be bound into Amanstan's Halls as another of Zorak Zoran's Fire Spirits, he might be defeated by the Guardians of Hell and bound into Hell for eternity. Perhaps he has to have been defeated by Zorak Zoran at the Hill of Gold for the Fire Powers to stick - how can he regain what was never lost? - so he may have no chance of completing the quest until he has gone to the Hill of Gold first.

Even if he succeeds, there may be other complications. The established cult might frown on him circumventing Yelmalio's will. They may oppose his subcult/herocult. He might have set up cult associations that have ramifications later on - what happens to him when Caladra is damaged at the end of the Godlearners, is he affected as well? What happens when other Zorak Zorani challenge him on a Hill of Gold Quest to get their Fire Powers back? Does he accept and get beaten, having to do his quest over again? Does he refuse and get branded a coward? What if he is repeatedly attacked? After all, the Hill of Gold is the best place to take fire powers from a Yelmalian.

If he is clever, he might use some Draconic stuff to throw the trolls off his scent. But what happens when the EWF ends? He is lost again.

So, yes, it is possible but very difficult.

 

[Voriof]

Can anyone find Greg's essay on what happens if you 'win' a contest your god is supposed to lose? Twas funny and insightful and far more eloquent than I'll ever be.

Jeff

I don't know if I ever read the article (where is it to be found?) but there is some incongruity if you can't win in quests that your god lost while you may loose in quests he/she succeeded in.

Sometimes, losing is the point of the myth or the staion in the heroquest. Sometimes, its not possible to continue without losing. If you win, you may not be able to succeed at your overall goal.

Orlanth could not have completed the Lightbringer's Quest if he had not failed in the King of Night's Hall, nor would they have been on the Quest if Chalana Arroy (or is it Erissa? ) had managed to heal the Dead God.

Similarly, Yelmalio would not have gained his "too tough to die while there is light" powers if he'd won at Hill of Gold.

Just sayin'

Jeff

 

[The King]

I'm no expert, but yes.

What would happen is the Questor would start a quest, go to Zorak Zoran's Hall of Fire in Hell, defeat the Guardians, perhaps even Zorak Zoran himself, and then return with the fire.

He could then keep the fire for himself, give it to others, teach others how to get the fire themselves, create a HeroCult of Yelmalio that enables Yelmalian members to have Fire Magic or some or all of the above.

Of course, it would be difficult ...

[.....]
So, yes, it is possible but very difficult.

Great! Thanks.

 

[The King]

Sometimes, losing is the point of the myth or the staion in the heroquest. Sometimes, its not possible to continue without losing. If you win, you may not be able to succeed at your overall goal.
Jeff

I understand your point there in that if you are a stranger in a strange land, you might have to bow before the king to be allowed shelter for the night.
This is no defeat of course but this is how I understand that you have to accept certain results, thus even loosing, in order to gain a counterpart for the next station.
Or better: I can't gain the power to heal myself if I am not wounded.

 

[gamesmeister]

I'm no expert, but yes.

What would happen is the Questor would start a quest, go to Zorak Zoran's Hall of Fire in Hell, defeat the Guardians, perhaps even Zorak Zoran himself, and then return with the fire.

He could then keep the fire for himself, give it to others, teach others how to get the fire themselves, create a HeroCult of Yelmalio that enables Yelmalian members to have Fire Magic or some or all of the above.

<snip>

Excellent post!

 

[homerjsinnott]

I'm no expert, but yes.

What would happen is the Questor would start a quest, go to Zorak Zoran's Hall of Fire in Hell, defeat the Guardians, perhaps even Zorak Zoran himself, and then return with the fire.

He could then keep the fire for himself, give it to others, teach others how to get the fire themselves, create a HeroCult of Yelmalio that enables Yelmalian members to have Fire Magic or some or all of the above.

<snip>

Excellent post!

Isn't this (according to the official sources) what the God Learners do?

I thought that you as a player couldn't just decide that you are going to get powers not associated with your deity, not officially anyway.
I thought that was the whole point of much of this thread.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

A question for the expert(s): is it possible to start up a brand new quest, e.g. as a Yelmalian hero to go underground and steal the fire from the ZZ trolls?

A semantic quibble. I don't think you can start up a "brand new quest", since a Heroquest is the re-enacting of a myth. Before you cango and steal fire from Zorak Zoran in Hell, you have to discover the story of how it was done.

Experimental heroquesting, such as that done by Arkat, and now by the God Learners is more a case of combining existing stories - recognising that where common elements exist in stories it is possible to "switch tracks" (Which is what Simon is talking about in his example).

Just "making it up as you go along" is incredibly difficult and dangerous, since without the template of a myth to work to, you have no idea what might be the result of actions might be, or how to proceed to exit the heroplane. (Heroquests do not necessarily follow "normal" logic, rather like Discworld, they follow the laws of Dramatic necessity - but if you are improvising, it might not be your story that is the drama unfolding....)

 

[Voriof]

Sometimes, losing is the point of the myth or the staion in the heroquest. Sometimes, its not possible to continue without losing. If you win, you may not be able to succeed at your overall goal.
Jeff

I understand your point there in that if you are a stranger in a strange land, you might have to bow before the king to be allowed shelter for the night.
This is no defeat of course but this is how I understand that you have to accept certain results, thus even loosing, in order to gain a counterpart for the next station.
Or better: I can't gain the power to heal myself if I am not wounded.

Sigh. Its more complex. Glorantha's a land of myth, not science. Change the myth, change the land. But as I have said, if you win where your god was defeated, you are pretty much on your own. You're in new territory and that is always dangerous and may in fact be detrimental to your deity's continued health...

...its also pretty God Learner-ish and frowned on post 2nd Age pretty much by everyone.

But YGMV, of course.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

I thought God Learner meddling in Myths took repeated heroquesting to actually affect changes. It takes a concerted effort and a lot of quests done 'wrong' to actually change a myth throughout the worlds/planes.

As such one screwed up quest (Yelmalio killing ZZ by accident) is not going to really change anything, it will only result in a failed quest with unknown (and possibly bad) results for the heroquester.

God Learners using their sight and questing a few hundred times and beating ZZ every time might affect a change, but a solitary heroquester really only need worry about the ramifications on himself of blowing the quest.

I also imagine that the importance of the gods in question would matter. It is much easier to change the fate of a minor deity than say Orlanth or Yelm.