Life Support Costs for Barracks and Small Cabins

[rust]

Notice, no more ships of that country have been touched?

In fact, the Somali pirates concentrate more and more on ships from the
very small flag states, in recents months all of their attacks on ships un-
der the flag of major states or with crews from major states have been
total desasters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_attacked_by_Somali_pirates_in_2010

Why they dared to attack two US Navy ships in April is beyond me, espe-
cially since earlier equally stupid attacks on French and German warships
should have convinced them that it is suicidal to attack a warship. Well,
perhaps they are just unable to tell a warship from a merchant vessel.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Fleet jumps for your convoys. All ships match vectors and a single jump plot is run and all ships use that one. Best done with that ex navy astrogator you found looking for work a while ago. Popular with the Navy but needs the awfull MonT jump rules fixing as regards to making the jump roll.

Convoys where there is a clear threat to the merchants yes but done properly. A bunch of merchants who just head off in the same direction together then do seperate jumps deserve what ever happens to them.

If you come in on the 100D limit there should be lots of friendly or at least neutrals around or close so why risk time sensitive cargos by waiting. Of course if you come in alone 100,000,000 km from the world because your Engineer 0 needs a map to find his way to work each day then you are unlikely to sit still waiting for anyone else to maybe arrive.
Tight beam the planet and run for it.

Escape pods. We can make stuff now at tech 8 (ish) that has a better duration than the balls and pods listed in the rules. The rescue ball seems to have little more than the air inside the ball when it inflates.

With the 0.5 ton pods you should be looking at scrubers and filters giving at least a week of air and with a med kit containing a few doses of Medical "fast" to slow down resperation and thus air use. The real limit on these pods should be water not air and even there you can have a small filtration system to recover sweat and other fluids to convert back to drinking water. A small battery pack to trickle feed your life support and a beacon with solar converters on the outside of the pod. It should be entirely possible to find pods with the beacons still running a year after the occupant dies of thirst.

Traveller. 1970s version of 1950s tech published in 2010. Suspend disbelief and wave hands a lot

Re: fleet jumps, good idea, I had assumed, without really thinking much about it, that such a thing was not possible in Trav, i.e. jump is hurling a 100t+ vessel at least 3 light years, so a little error in arrival is inevitable. You would probably need very compentent engineers on the divert power as well as the navigators to co-ordinate it all. However, would revolutionise how I imagined traveller fleet actions would work, if the whole force can appear simultaneously. Something to think about for MTU, where I had previously worked on the basis that an attacking fleet would jump to a point someway off from its objective, at least 1 million Km but far enough to be out of likely sensor cover, spend 24 hours assembling, then make a rapid m-drive approach to target.

Re: Escape pods, we are clearly on the same lines.

Yea handwavium!

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Look at the piracy emanating from Somalia in recent years, even in potentially dangerous waters merchants plod on regardless, and in most cases are not intercepted.

Well, the great majority of all merchant ships that come near the Somali
coast do travel in escorted convoys.

Just an example, it is easy to find a lot more:
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100811/160159806.html

Those who prefer to travel alone are only the ones who make it into the
news most often, because they are the ones who get attacked by the pi-
rates.

Fair point, though I think the motives of those who refuse to hang around to wait for a convoy will be commercial, and not those of the crew but of their owners.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Notice, no more ships of that country have been touched?

In fact, the Somali pirates concentrate more and more on ships from the
very small flag states, in recents months all of their attacks on ships un-
der the flag of major states or with crews from major states have been
total desasters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_attacked_by_Somali_pirates_in_2010

Why they dared to attack two US Navy ships in April is beyond me, espe-
cially since earlier equally stupid attacks on French and German warships
should have convinced them that it is suicidal to attack a warship. Well,
perhaps they are just unable to tell a warship from a merchant vessel.

Possibly there is a very myopic pirate clan somewhere in Somalia. More likely, they are hoping to get picked up, get charged with something minor, and claim political asylum

Egil

 

[BP]

...Possibly there is a very myopic pirate clan somewhere in Somalia. ...

Ah - they are looking for a country where they could get good optical healthcare coverage! :lol:

...More likely, they are hoping to get picked up, get charged with something minor, and claim political asylum...

More likely they were doped up out of their minds!

 

[BP]

RE: Fleet jumps - the variable nature of the the time for jump re-entry (36 hours) precludes fleets jumping in unison, without House rules, of course...

The idea of jumping the vessels with greatest defense well in advance is sound, though, still means the fleet is at its most vulnerable at jump re-entry - and the initial jumpers could be at a major disadvantage.

To me this makes a great justification for fleet jump carriers when jumping into a system one might not control (due to incursions or an intended attack).

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

To me this makes a great justification for fleet jump carriers when jumping into a system one might not control (due to incursions or an intended attack).

Yeah, but carriers are very vulnerable to other capital ships, or even large monitors, if it ends up within the sights of a spinal weapon the carrier is fried, so still need to plot a safe jump point well away from the intended target system. If the carrier arrives too close, too early, its history.

Egil

 

[rinku]

My take on the rescue ball is that it's the direct equivalent of the floatation vest you have under your airline seat. If the disaster happens within range of rescue, it can save your life.

If you're within 100D of a busy starport, those 8 hours should be enough; *any* starport would at least have a small craft it could dispatch, and they typically can boost at high G's.

 

[BP]

... still need to plot a safe jump point well away from the intended target system. If the carrier arrives too close, too early, its history.

Basically, what I was pointing out in my initial post - fleets will be quite vulnerable when re-entering normal space.

Of course, systems have a lot of space, so a carrier jumping in is still the best bet to bring sufficient assets into a system without running the risk of individual ships being picked off one by one due to unknowable separation in time and space.

Addressing the risk of being unlucky enough to emerge within range of a prepared capital ship with sufficient firepower to overwhelm a carrier means the ability to rapidly deploy fleet assets immediately upon emergence in-system (external docking/launch tubes/modular maneuver only carrier sub-sections).

 

[BP]

My take on the rescue ball is that it's the direct equivalent of the floatation vest you have under your airline seat. If the disaster happens within range of rescue, it can save your life.

If you're within 100D of a busy starport, those 8 hours should be enough; *any* starport would at least have a small craft it could dispatch, and they typically can boost at high G's.

Yeah - and its nice drama for a game!

As with RL flotation vests, they will generally not make any difference (most of the time the passengers are already dead) - but, for rare occasions, they are worth their weight in gold (or platinum or what have you).

Of course, it would also, probably, not be that unusual that the rescue balls would have been turned into some quick credits by some unethical crew before they ever get the chance to be properly used... :twisted:

 

[rinku]

As with RL flotation vests, they will generally not make any difference (most of the time the passengers are already dead) - but, for rare occasions, they are worth their weight in gold (or platinum or what have you).

Probably the single most important part of the rescue ball (apart from the oxygen supply) is the distress beacon. Assuming there is some kind of craft that can get there in time, they really don't have any problem locating the balls (though this won't tell them which balls have survivors in them).

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

... still need to plot a safe jump point well away from the intended target system. If the carrier arrives too close, too early, its history.

Basically, what I was pointing out in my initial post - fleets will be quite vulnerable when re-entering normal space.

Of course, systems have a lot of space, so a carrier jumping in is still the best bet to bring sufficient assets into a system without running the risk of individual ships being picked off one by one due to unknowable separation in time and space.

Addressing the risk of being unlucky enough to emerge within range of a prepared capital ship with sufficient firepower to overwhelm a carrier means the ability to rapidly deploy fleet assets immediately upon emergence in-system (external docking/launch tubes/modular maneuver only carrier sub-sections).

Yeah, think we are both agreed about the vulnerability of a fleet arriving in dribs and drabs. Agree that the carrier is a good bet (well, almost the only bet ..) to establish a cordon as you can push the fighters out to create a very substantial, and distant, screen. But your best bet is still to plot your jump emergence point well away from the target system, assemble your fleet in the depths of space, then close on the target.

Zhodani would be able to use telepaths to enable emeerging ships to communicate and liase without EM emmissions, but I suspect the IN will have developed protocols (passive sensor use, comms by narrow beam laser etc) to achieve the same.

However, in combat nothing is ever perfect.

Egil

 

[BP]

... Agree that the carrier is a good bet (well, almost the only bet ..) to establish a cordon as you can push the fighters out to create a very substantial, and distant, screen. But your best bet is still to plot your jump emergence point well away from the target system, assemble your fleet in the depths of space, then close on the target. ...However, in combat nothing is ever perfect.

Most definitely.

Given the random nature of jump, time and position wise, the best bet would be to bring in your fleet in batches of carriers well away from the likely system 'hot-spots'. If time permits, optimally some 36+ hours before hand (probably longer given scan time), one might want to jump in advanced probes out-system and in, to pre-scan to provide immediate intel upon emergence. This could have the downside of pre-warning a target system, so would only be applied when such was a non-issue (like when coming in far out-system and assembling), or the balance was in the favor of having lay of the land info upon arrival.

Of course, stand-off insertion approach implies long transits with their inherent strategy weaknesses and potential fuel issues - which leads nicely into the 'High Guard' situation .

 

[rinku]

For the most part, an emerging fleet will cause such an EM spike that their own initial communications shouldn't be a big issue.

Keep in mind it is *highly* unlikely that enemy ships are going to be close to the incoming fleet unless they're knowingly jumping in to them. Even with ships coming in dribs and drabs, a fleet can plan to be days away from the target.

Regarding the scattering of the fleet... I don't think I've seen this addressed before, but it could be possible for the jump vector to be co-ordinated amongst a fleet. One astrogation plot for all, followed by a programmed jump roll. Might need extra time and some co-ordination rolls by the flagship chief engineer, and it might only really work within ships of a class, but worth a thought. The payoff would be a common time in jumpspace, or at least, less of a scatter.

 

[BP]

Probably the single most important part of the rescue ball (apart from the oxygen supply) is the distress beacon. Assuming there is some kind of craft that can get there in time, they really don't have any problem locating the balls (though this won't tell them which balls have survivors in them).

Well, not the most important, given their short duration and general lack of propulsion, the initial event is most likely the 'beacon' and the balls would normally be easily 'spotted' in space. Not to say the distress beacon would not have extreme value in odd cases - like when a ship is just abandoned without an alarm or noticeable issue.

No reason the distress beacon can't provide extra info - like some indication of possible survivors aboard. Simple internal temp, and any acoustically identified pulse rates (at least suitable for known sophonts with such) could provide a good indication of whether life was on board, how many, and a bit about their physical state (i.e. possibly critical).

 

[BP]

For the most part, an emerging fleet will cause such an EM spike that their own initial communications shouldn't be a big issue.

Yep - detection of communications would be secondary - detecting location of friendlies in order to communicate with them would be the problem (after which point, 'secure' point-to-point laser comms would handle things).

Keep in mind it is *highly* unlikely that enemy ships are going to be close to the incoming fleet unless they're knowingly jumping in to them. Even with ships coming in dribs and drabs, a fleet can plan to be days away from the target.

True to an extent. But a potential day and a half, plus unknowable assembly time, is a big strategic and, likely, tactical advantage for an opponent. Not to mention fuel issues.

Regarding the scattering of the fleet... I don't think I've seen this addressed before, but it could be possible for the jump vector to be co-ordinated amongst a fleet. One astrogation plot for all, followed by a programmed jump roll. Might need extra time and some co-ordination rolls by the flagship chief engineer, and it might only really work within ships of a class, but worth a thought. The payoff would be a common time in jumpspace, or at least, less of a scatter.

Had always assumed something similiar would be the case - and that it would be a 'best practice' to minimize, but in no way, eliminate the random nature of jump re-emergence.

Of course, to my knowledge, nothing specifically dictates where that randomness comes from (i.e. identical masses and/or diameter volumes, jumping from an identical point, might arrive at nearly identical times and locations). In CT, the time frame was 150 to 175 hours, and in one 3D TU I created, I actually based this time on relative 'jump plane' distances, which eliminated specific randomness.

In the OTU, it is my understanding based on TML and other online sources over the years and the newer MGT rules that fleet arrival and dispersion is an issue due to the random time/position issues. Of course, besides possibly being just out-right wrong , this is also an area were 'official sources' might contradict each other...

 

[Captain Jonah]

I dislike the Way MonT does jump rolls anyway, astrogation has no real effect and 50% of them go off course which just isn't supported by classic and other versions.

Plot jump, 1D hours to plot and refine jump, no roll needed. Emergency jump 1-6 space combat turns (6 – 36 mins) Roll Astrogation and use effect number .

Jump roll. 2D +4, +astrogator skill level, + Jump Engineer skill level, - parsecs jumped, -2 per level of jump/power damage, emergency jump plot -4, -8 within 100D.
8+ Spot on, 164 hours, on target.
7 Close 1-3 early 1D hours, 4-6 late 1D hours, off target by 1D 1,000,000 Km
6 Close 1-3 early 1D hours, 4-6 late 1D hours, off target by 1D 5,000,000 Km
5 Mid 1-3 early 2D hours, 4-6 late 2D hours, off target by 1D 10,000,000 Km
4 Mid 1-3 early 2D hours, 4-6 late 2D hours, off target by 1D 20,000,000 Km
3 Far 1-3 early 3D hours, 4-6 late 3D hours, off target by 1D 50,000,000 Km
2 Far 1-3 early 3D hours, 4-6 late 3D hours, off target by 1D 100,000,000 Km
1-Miss Jump 6D parsecs, see ref.
Short jumps with a skilled astrogator and engineer are almost always on target. Computer Nav on longer jumps with a less skilled engineer are often off target.
Fleet/convoy jumps. One astrogator plots entire jump, ships match vector. Roll using worst engineer skill for fleet result, if off target then roll for each ship separately. For example 4 ships jump and roll 6. Each of the 4 ships will be early or late by 1-6 hours and off target by 1d 5,000,000km so not too badly scattered but still up to 6 hours and 30,000,000 km apart.

Cannon wise there are a few mentions scattered around of fleets jumping into a target world badly scattered and engaged piecemeal and defeated so we know it happens but it doesn't seem to happen that much and if jumps are realy so inaccurate how do raiders catch anyone by suprise if half the time they arrive many hours away from target

Getting back to pods, several encounters and adventures have players finding pods. They have to capture them and open them to find out what is inside (random usualy) so no info given as to living person or otherwise. A powerfull radio transmitter screaming "GK, SOS, HEEEEEELP" and when you get closer maybe a faint voice saying"can anyone hear me, is anyone out there".

Not that the pod still has anyone alive still in it, voices of the dead are just spooky when you spend hours listening to the voice only to open the pod and find a long dead body. Anyone remember a Star Trek episode where they pick up a distress call and respond with members of the crew constantly talking to the survivor in shifts as they race to the rescue only to find a temporal pocket and a long dead person.

Half ton life pods should be roughly the same as modern life boats but with life support. A modern life raft with GPS, emergency beacon, med kit, food and water, shelter roof etc drops from its ship and shouts for help to every satelite in line of sight. A starship pod should be better than this with improved tech. You may not be happy after a week in a pod but you should be alive, just remember to grab your personacomp with its library of books to read and games to play :lol:

 

[rinku]

I dislike the Way MonT does jump rolls anyway, astrogation has no real effect and 50% of them go off course which just isn't supported by classic and other versions.

I'm with you on Astrogation - I game it that you get *one* Astrogation roll and that its effect is applied to the Engineering roll.

However, if you use the FULL implications of the Mongoose skill rules, you greatly reduce the chance of an inaccurate jump just be taking extra time. If you take 10-60 minutes for the divert power task instead of the standard 10-60 seconds, that's a +2 to your check, right there. So even with Engineer-0 and Education 6, you can make it a 6+ roll to be accurate with no chance of misump. Unless the jump *has* to be done in the next minute or so, there no real reason not to use the extra time rules. With a good engineer (skill 2, +1 Education DM), this drops to a 3+ roll. NO problem.

 

[Captain Jonah]

I dislike the Way MonT does jump rolls anyway, astrogation has no real effect and 50% of them go off course which just isn't supported by classic and other versions.

I'm with you on Astrogation - I game it that you get *one* Astrogation roll and that its effect is applied to the Engineering roll.

However, if you use the FULL implications of the Mongoose skill rules, you greatly reduce the chance of an inaccurate jump just be taking extra time. If you take 10-60 minutes for the divert power task instead of the standard 10-60 seconds, that's a +2 to your check, right there. So even with Engineer-0 and Education 6, you can make it a 6+ roll to be accurate with no chance of misump. Unless the jump *has* to be done in the next minute or so, there no real reason not to use the extra time rules. With a good engineer (skill 2, +1 Education DM), this drops to a 3+ roll. NO problem.

Yet you still end up with the engineer being more important that the astrogator. It makes astrogation meaningless as a skill because being good at it is pointless. With 6 hours going from planet to 100D for the average merchant and half that for a warship you can reroll an astrogation check again and again at (average) 30 mins per try till you get one roll then the astrogation becomes not needed. A skill 0 nav program does the job just as well which is why player ships never carry an astrogator, they simply are not needed. Which is just wrong, the guy plotting a gazillion Km jump across several light years through another dimension allowing for every grav variable from every system nearby and using math learned over many years of training has no effect on the actual jump.

Want to get your jumps on target every time, hire a skilled engineer AND a skilled astrogator.

 

[rust]

I have to admit that in my settings Astrogation is only a secondary skill
of starship pilots, and in most situations a Level 0 is sufficient to program
the ship's astrogation computer, which does all the actual mathematics
anyway. I treat Astrogation similar to the Navigation skill for seafarers,
unless one intends to travel into unmapped territory or the electronics of
the vehicle are down it is not really necessary to get from A to B.