Lessons for the Gorn

billclo said:
:Take the defensive fire against each plasma, ..............

What this will do, is that a ship defending itself with it's own phasers will do so quite well, however, a ship using IDF to defend another ship may have a much harder time having any effect.

I suspect the main result of such a change will be to encourage any ships using IDF to remain within kill zone range of each other so they can be most effective. I'm not sure it'll make a major difference, but we'll see.

I like the sound of this. Plasma’s take two points of Phaser damage to drop a damage dice but Phasers count kill zones. It doesn't change the self defence dynamic since every ship defending itself will be firing inside the kill zone and each Phaser does 2 damage which drops a dice of plasma. What it does do is pulls fleets closer together since ships with lots of Phaser 2s or 3s need to be close enough to each other to be in the kill zone or their fire against plasma is effectively halved.

It stops people half way across the map throwing a few Phaser 1s into the mix and rewards tactical play on the part of the Plasma race since they can isolate a target out of the kill zone of its friends. It should help to reduce the Klink mobility advantage a bit if they all need to keep within those Phaser 2 kill zones of each other.

The plasma races are mostly Phaser 1s, the Feds are also fine. The Kzinit have Phaser 1s and a small forest of Phaser 3s. The klingon’s with all the Phaser 2s will suffer most but have the mobility to keep together. However keeping within the Phaser 2 kill zone makes them more predictable.

As I have said before simply doubling the Plasma dice via enveloping or overloading or some such is too over powering.

This seems like a much more viable idea. Good thinking. :wink:
 
Captain Jonah said:
This seems like a much more viable idea. Good thinking. :wink:

I didn't come up with it, but wish I had. Credit goes to my opponent (Barry Kirk).

We are going to try it in some of our games and see how well it goes.
 
Like it as well 8) , as it doesn't weaken the defending ship (which is GOING to have Kill Zone on anything fired at it), just the supporting ships. It's just this this might be too complicated ( :shock: ) for the smooth running of the system - but shouldn't as it becomes part of the defensive fire segment (Plasma users would have to live with rounding 'up' half die, but i'd happily do that for the reduction in defensive fire :wink: )
 
@ billclo - Totaling up Phasers divide by 2 seems like a lot of work for a fast past game.

Why not look at adding a PLASMA SABOT, Special Action instead. Basiclly you spend your Special Action to increase the Range of you F,G, and S Torpedoes to 24" and maybe stretching the Type R to a range of 36". (Will have to play with that one to see how it works. It may be too powerful at that range.) Then recalculate Energy Bleed off the new max ranges. Type F, G, & S would be 8/16/24 and a Type R would then be 18/24/36. This accomplish you doubling phaser penalty with a lot less think during the game.

Of course Plasma Ds due to their defenceive natures do not gain any benift from saboting.

Another thought is allowing a new Firing Mode for Larger Plasma Torpedoes. A Fast Load Plasma Torpedo can be fired out of a Plasma G, S, or R Launcher. This Special Torpedoe would be identical to a Type F Torpedoe (meaning it can be bolted) but would not requires the reload Specail Action to be prepared to fire. Anytime you fire a fast load Type F Torpedo out of a launcher you must spend a Reload Special Action Turn in order to fire the Launcher as it original heavier type or, you can continue to fire Type Fs every Turn with no penalty.
 
Rambler said:
@ billclo - Totaling up Phasers divide by 2 seems like a lot of work for a fast past game.

Easy. Say the plasma took 7 hits (6 from self defense and 1 from a nearby ship). Divide by 2, yielding 3.5. Round down = 3 dice lost.

No more complicated than with the Klingon double shield rule. Say he takes 7 points of damage. Halve it, equaling 3.5. Now round up to 4 and take that off the shield.
 
Based on my playing with Gorn (and Roms) I would not go changing phasers to be less effective against plasma. Closing to range is 'interesting' but once they are there they are brutal. Any change you make has to account for what happens when you get close, halving phasers would make them nigh on unbeatable.

As Matt said, phasers may look nasty against plasma, but in the source games plasma will be out run to some extent even when launched from up close, so that it is weakened when it does hit. Full strength phasers is a reasonable reflection of the fact that you don't get to do that in this game - it is an 'averageing of all defenses' as he put it.

Take the AAR noted earlier.

Shooting 60+ plasma dice against a 9 ship fleet and seeing 45+ phasers hit it is a statistical anomaly, 7 out 9 ships getting IDF happens only about 2% of the time, then going on to hit with pretty much every phaser (including PH2s and 3s) is even less likely. You are more likely to see 3 or less ships get IDF (which will possibly be the ones targeted) than 7 or more get it.

Like it or not, plasma is by a long way the single most potent weapon in the game per volley. Even with phaser halving in the above situation, which is the best possible luck a defender could possibly dream of, you would have seen an extra 23+ dice (probably nearer 28 due to rounding) hit. That is an extra DN dead, or a couple of CLs.

In a more average case the defender sees say 4-5 ships get IDF, of which 2-3 are the ones picked on, the other ships contribute say 10 phasers (may be more or less depending on which ships they were and what they had in arc). The defender is maybe looking at only about 24-30 phasers all told to defend with, of which maybe only 20 hit (assuming some of those phasers are 2s and 3s). At the moment a 60+ strike (that Gorn fleet started with 76 dice) gets about 40+ dice hitting. If you halve the phasers that you get about 50+ dice hitting. Add in the Gorn/Rom phasers (which are in kill zone as well) and you are looking at a very toasted target.

Your heavy cruisers die to about 50-60 damage, or about 16 dice of plasma (devastating crits probably means it happens with a dice or 2 less). 40 dice will vaporise 2 CAs and leave another with no shields in a single turn. A few extra dice can take out 3 CAs in one swoop, halving the phasers makes that much more likely.

The main problem facing Gorns is NOT phasers shooting down the plasma, it is closing. But even there that challenge is mainly against Klingons/Kzinti with long range Drones and Disrupters. That, however, is lot easier if you are playing with terrain, which the game really seems to have been designed with in mind. It's even easier now drones have been pegged back. Despite their range, disrupters and drones generally struggle to do the necessary damage to prevent getting splattered by plasma when the Gorn do close. There were 76 plasma dice in the AAR Gorn fleet, even if they lost the CC/BC they still have over 60 dice left, which is capable of pulling back the game on one go.

The Klingon fleet from earlier in the thread only had 16 long range disrupters, or about 16 damage a turn beyond range 12. At range 15 they add in another 10 disrupters (another 10 damage beyond range 7.5). The drones they have (with the new drone rules) are little more than a nuisance, the most drones they hit a ship with is 8 at range 18 and less, and that leaves the second volley being no more than 5.

Not everyone is a klingon/Kzinti who can attempt to wear you down at range, Feds and the other plasma empire, or when they are brought in, Hydran and to a large extent Lyran are not good long range empires. ISC are mainly plasma, with a very nice long range PPD (but usually in limited numbers and a reload weapon), Vudar are Fed like, Andro are very lite on firepower but very tough and mobile.
 
Rambler.

Keep the ideas coming. We always like new ideas.

However every change has to be balanced against what already exists in the game.

Plasma Sabot is rather unbalanced. Giving a Plasma R 36" range (or even 24" range) massively distorts the current balance of Plasma races having high firepower at close range and Disruptor races having low firepower at long range.

Even with it needing a special action the ability for the Plasma cruisers to fire paired Fs and Ss out to 16" doing 8AD is going to leave the Feds crying foul and the Klingon’s will be complaining mightily as well. This means that a pair of Plasma ships can basically kill an enemy cruiser at 16" on turn two unless everyone is hiding behind terrain. Having a Plasma R reach out to 24" or 36" doing 4AD is likewise going to have the Kzinti and Klingon’s howling in rage. The Gorn have the CM variant and the Romulan’s have the KE. Putting three or four Plasma R launchers in a 1000+ point fleet is not difficult. Having those ships hit a target at 36" for 12 or 16AD on turn one takes us straight back to the Drones are OP problem.

Even with a 24" range that means up to 16AD of Plasmas on an enemy ship turn two.

Bilco's idea (or at least the idea he suggested) is balanced against the other races. It forces tactic changes by making the circumstances under which other ships can defend against Plasmas harder to achieve. It is no more complex than the Klingon front shields and makes any fleet defending against Plasmas think tactically rather than just having any ship within 16" be free to Phaser down a Plasma.

Update. Storyelf ninja'd in while I was typing (and drinking coffee). What storyelf says is very true. Any game can be lost due to a turn or two of insanely bad dice rolls, I suspect everyone here can tell a story of "That Game" where your best units failed to hit, where every shot or attack failed to cause damage or bounced off armour. Play ten games and see how often the Klingon gets 7 ships out of 9 to make IDF.

If he does it more than twice distract him and steal his dice :twisted:

Storyelf its not just halving Phaser damage against Plasmas, it is also counting the kill zone. So a Phaser inside the Kill zone does two damage and takes out one dice of Plasma as normal. It means that a ship 10 or 15" away that makes its IDF roll contributes far less to Plasma defence than one close by and covering a shipmate.
 
Captain Jonah said:
Storyelf its not just halving Phaser damage against Plasmas, it is also counting the kill zone. So a Phaser inside the Kill zone does two damage and takes out one dice of Plasma as normal. It means that a ship 10 or 15" away that makes its IDF roll contributes far less to Plasma defence than one close by and covering a shipmate.

True, I just glanced at the post above about halving.

However, I still don't agree with what is said. You are still making it harder to defend vs plasma (just not by as much). I've yet to see any reason why plasma needs to be harder to defend against. In most cases a Plasma volley overwhelms the defender already.

Kzinti with mainly Ph3s already have to stay close for decent IDF, with this proposal they would then have to be in base contact to keep the same effectiveness. Klingon Ph2s would have to be within 4", So if you don't have Ph1s you are forced to be with in explosion distance of another ship to effectively cover it, and ships hit by plasma are likely to explode, probably 2 or 3 them in one turn. That is just making plasma even more potent than simply reducing phaser effectiveness.

Seriously, Plasma does not need to be harder to shoot down. That just makes them even more a case of 'If I get close I win' than they are now.
 
Storyelf,

I don't know if you are familiar with the old game SFB, but in that game, phasers are shorter ranged than in this game. A phaser-1 only does guaranteed damage out to 5 hexes (inches), with it being better to wait until 1-2 hexes for maximum plasma reduction. Phaser 2's are only guaranteed damage dealers out to 3 hexes, and phaser-3s are range 2.

So actually in this game you are getting better results than in the original game. It's rather common for ships to stay close together for mutual defense. It's actually better in the current incarnation of SFB in that the explosion radius is only 1 hex (going from memory since I no longer have the SFB rules). In the old version, it was a 4-hex radius and the explosion strengths could be quite a bit larger.

So with phaser-2s you can be up to 4" from the ship defending you, phaser-3 it's 2"/contact range. Still closer range than some might like but there has to be a tradeoff between effective mutual defense and explosion risk. I think the current setup where a ship 12-18" away is just as effective vs plasma as the ship being targeted is flawed.

The proposal I put forth makes those far away defenders less effective, that's all. You can always stay close together for mutual defense or spread out and take your chances.
 
billclo said:
The proposal I put forth makes those far away defenders less effective, that's all. You can always stay close together for mutual defense or spread out and take your chances.

But question is: Is plasma too weak at the moment?

If not then what your proposal does is make plasma's too good for the point cost...

With currently not enough games having been played and what we have so far doesn't seem to indicate so(romulans got top 2 spots in Mongoose's tournament...) I would be cautious about boosting plasma's notably.
 
billclo said:
Storyelf,

I don't know if you are familiar with the old game SFB, but in that game, phasers are shorter ranged than in this game. A phaser-1 only does guaranteed damage out to 5 hexes (inches), with it being better to wait until 1-2 hexes for maximum plasma reduction. Phaser 2's are only guaranteed damage dealers out to 3 hexes, and phaser-3s are range 2.

I'm familiar(ish) with SFB and extremely familiar with FC. The obvious retort to that is that in SFB and FC plasma is not guaranteed to hit you at all no matter whether you launch at close range or not, or it will hit you at much reduced effectiveness due to you running it down for a while, nor does it reload at the same rate as photons. Plasma gains a lot in this game relative to other weapons, and the fact that phasers do what they do is to stop them being an instant win.

IMO nothing you have shown in terms of AAR or other wise has shown an issue with plasma being to weak in relation to phasers. Sure you had a game where the Gorns lost a lot of plasma to IDF, but for every game you see that happen I'll get multiple where there are no ships that were on IDF apart the ones I'm shooting at. Even you went on to say the Gorns would probably have won that game in the end, and that was after almost the flukiest IDF and phaser rolling imaginable. Given more average rolling that would have presumably been very one sided. This was even on an open map which noticeably plays to the klingons strengths against Gorn. Yet you are now wanting to weaken plasma defense and push ships into explosion range to compensate for it.

By all means dispute the maths I noted earlier, but that maths also reflects the reality of what I've seen in game as well - Gorn take a bit of a beating on the way in then pop several enemy ships at once. I can't see any reason to make it even harder to defend against.
 
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, at least until I get more Gorn vs Klingon games under my belt. I seriously doubt that Mongoose is going to make any significant change to the game unless player demand is high, and so far it seems to be around 50/50 for/against.

You're right my last game was probably a bit fluky. Which is why we are going to try some more games and note the results.
 
billclo said:
The proposal I put forth makes those far away defenders less effective, that's all. You can always stay close together for mutual defense or spread out and take your chances.

Worth pointing oput that, as games designers, we don't _want_ ships bunched together. That restricts mobility as an overall fleet, and mobility maketh a game...
 
msprange said:
billclo said:
The proposal I put forth makes those far away defenders less effective, that's all. You can always stay close together for mutual defense or spread out and take your chances.

Worth pointing oput that, as games designers, we don't _want_ ships bunched together. That restricts mobility as an overall fleet, and mobility maketh a game...

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for mentioning that.
 
billclo said:
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, at least until I get more Gorn vs Klingon games under my belt.


It doesn't matter that much how many Gorn vs Klingon games you have. Changing plasma rules affects everyone, not just that particular matchup. Any issue you have with that matchup is not necessarily down to plasma having a problem, or even Gorns having a problem.
 
msprange said:
billclo said:
The proposal I put forth makes those far away defenders less effective, that's all. You can always stay close together for mutual defense or spread out and take your chances.

Worth pointing oput that, as games designers, we don't _want_ ships bunched together. That restricts mobility as an overall fleet, and mobility maketh a game...

Clearly a biased view. Having everyone’s ship clustered together where we can Plasma them is the preferred method. Wanting ships spread out all across the map is clearly intended to support the Klinks and furballs :lol: :wink:
 
That's why Gorn have swivel mount plasma - to counter nefarious mammalian game designer instincts to scatter.
 
Let them cluster, just more damage inflicted when you over-kill a cruiser in the middle of the formation causing extra damage via explosion mwuahaha.
 
Yeah, Monday night saw a Gorn DN go boom, taking a C7 and a Salvage cruiser in chain reaction - with a Fed CC having to knock a hole through the shattered viewscreen....

Explosions can be entertaining when people get into knife fights.....the immortal line 'If I get within 2" for the Phaser 3 kill zone, I'll squeeze a few more points on that DN' was probably the the fatal point.
 
wasn't sure about how to run a gorn fleet. Would you run a tight formation with 1 large ship in middle while being surrounded by smaller ones to max out your plasmas? Run as a large moving block to dominate the center? Or run smaller pairs to surround and pick off enemies?
 
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