Lessons for the Gorn

billclo said:
I guess I'm just getting really frustrated. EVERY time we play Klingons vs someone else the Klingons always win. We switch off who plays them, and they win every time regardless of tactics used by the non-Klingon force. Frankly the 2nd game where the Gorns killed a D5W, E4 and crippled an E4 but lost a CM and a BD was the best performance vs Klingons yet. :( And the Gorns were still going to get creamed the next turn since they had only about 10AD worth of unfired plasma and most of the Klingons on their rear.

Perhaps if we get more opponents and encounter different play styles we might stumble upon a winning combination, but as it stands at least for us the Klingons are nigh-unbeatable. It's to the point where the game isn't fun anymore, when the Klingons win every time. And if a game isn't any fun, why bother? I'm actually considering selling off my considerable investment in minis and walk away from the game if the Klingon-wins-every-time trend continues. Or just ban Klingons, sell their minis off, and play with other races.

Well, talking of playstyle, do you always play with no terrain? or is was it just the games you posted in this thread. Terrain really does make a difference. Advancing with terrain between you and the enemy prevents long range sniping, it can give cover when reloading, and it can limit manouverability.
 
billclo said:
Yah, I don't see how I'm going to win regardless of what tactic I used when 75%+ of my plasma dice are shot down because nearly the entire enemy fleet is on IDF. Gorns have inferior phaser suites due to their funky arcs. And you end up using many of them vs Klingon drones anyways.

How does someone get an entire fleet in IDF? In an average game, it should be around 50%, allowing you to pick and choose the least defended targets...
 
msprange said:
billclo said:
Yah, I don't see how I'm going to win regardless of what tactic I used when 75%+ of my plasma dice are shot down because nearly the entire enemy fleet is on IDF. Gorns have inferior phaser suites due to their funky arcs. And you end up using many of them vs Klingon drones anyways.

How does someone get an entire fleet in IDF? In an average game, it should be around 50%, allowing you to pick and choose the least defended targets...

Hot die rolls. 7 of 9 ships made the roll. :(

People keep saying use terrain, but I don't see how that's going to help when I'm sub-8" with clear lines of fire and about 75% of my plasma is shot down. Heck, I had 2 BDs dump 14AD into the rear of a F5 from 5", and between his phasers, those of his squadron mates (on IDF) and a nearby D5W's (on IDF) front phasers, only 3AD hit. Adding in phasers I was able to cripple the F5, but had no torps left, and 4 enemy ships in the vicinity. All of them agile, and me with nothing but phasers.

"well it looks like you were using close to 1300 points. I haven't had a chance to wrap my head around the gorn yet to suggest a list against the klinks you listed, but the gorn fleet you listed does seem more interested in initiative sink than effective firing."

It's a product of my experience with Fed vs Klingon battles. Initially I used to go heavier on cruisers with small ships an afterthought. However, after getting reamed repeatedly because the hyper-agile Klingons always managed to get on my flanks/rear and I was having alot of trouble getting in photon shots, I decided I needed more agile ships, for the lumbering Fed cruisers were getting shot to pieces.

I eventually decided to use more small ships as flankers; move them last and get them on the flanks so as to negate the double front shield rule.
 
With Romulan plasma ships I find that different ships have different effective plasma ranges and of course every ship has a different point per plasma value so I pick carefully which ones I use. Plasma S and especially R have great mid range standoff power. I generally maneuver to hit the enemies key ships with at least 2 massive barrages of plasma in a one two punch that virtually guarantees that ship is out of action. Either a Condor or KC9R from 8 - 12" followed up by a KE will throw nearly 30 dice of plasma vs one ship. I can not imagine any amount of IDF stopping that without some really crazy statistical anomoly, especially if you pick your victim wisely, and if they did fire that much defensive phaser, they will have zero phasers to shoot at your ships so your phasers will be unanswered that turn. Mix in a few ships that can get up close while your heavy hitters backup and reload or cloak and reload and I have found the plasma attack to be quite overwhelming.

Now I will admit this is Romulan strategy and not Gorn who I have not tried yet, but the weapons are similar.
 
deadshane said:
When the entire enemy fleet is on IDF I think I might hold my plasma for a turn.

...just saying.

So when I'm at close range I only fire a few token phasers (many phasers are dealing with the drones) and let him hammer me from the flanks with and not respond? :shock: And when he goes IDF again next turn (though he probably won't get 7 of 9 ships succeeding but it could happen)?
 
billclo said:
It's a product of my experience with Fed vs Klingon battles. Initially I used to go heavier on cruisers with small ships an afterthought. However, after getting reamed repeatedly because the hyper-agile Klingons always managed to get on my flanks/rear and I was having alot of trouble getting in photon shots, I decided I needed more agile ships, for the lumbering Fed cruisers were getting shot to pieces.

I think you may be going in the wrong direction. Have a look at my post on this thread, which addrtesses this problem;

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=51376
 
You can not judge a game system when the fortunes of war (a statistically freaky die roll) turn against you. If hit ratios were fixed, the game would become rather static and boring.

My primary Fed opponent bemoaned the photons for the first several games he played until he #1 learned to alpha strike single opponents instead of spreading his fire and #2 the dice rolls statistically started evening out in his favor after a long streak of initial bad rolls. Now he loves his photons (and I fear them).
 
Well I have to report that I was really curious how the game would have gone if we had time to play beyond Turn 3, where we stopped. I decided to start over and see what more optimum moves might have resulted in.

I did basically the same setup, and played solitaire with very similar moves on both sides. I was able to adjust some maneuvers to better line up the plasmas and got off all my plasmas. I used the same IDF situation, etc.

Turn 3 results were similar, with a D5W and E4 killed, F5 crippled. The Gorns lost a HD, with the other HD losing all it's shields. I did manage to hit with 28AD of plasma this time, instead of the previous 15-18AD.

Turn 4, I moved the 2 cruisers left and right, head on to each other about 10" apart and reloaded. The Klingon frigate swarm followed as expected, and the 2 D5W went after the CM, with the C7 on the CM's 11'oclock about 12" out. The crippled F5 was destroyed.

The Klingons managed to damage the CM to 4 shields and 10 internal hits.

The Cruisers and BDD reloaded their torps. The HD with damaged shields boosted and rolled a "12". :) It wandered off to the edge of the battle and was ignored.

Turn 5, the Cruisers and 3 BDD were reloaded.

The HDD boosted shields again and brought them up to nearly full.

The CM backed up, and the 2 D5W and frigates followed it. They unleashed a savage disruptor and drone attack on the CM. Most of their phasers were on IDF defending against plasma again. 4 of 7 ships made their IDF roll, and the 2 D5W overloaded disruptors.

I was able to concentrate plasma fire on only 2 targets this time (D5W and F5, though it was on the F5's front shield). In the ensuing plasma launches, another D5W and F5 were destroyed and the C7 taking a real phaser beating on it's shields which held. A BDD and the CM were crippled. The Klingons decide to run away.

So I guess I am posting this to say that had we had time to continue the game, the Klingons probably would have lost (barring some major error on the part of the Gorns)...that second plasma salvo was rather decisive. I shouldn't have complained quite so bitterly about it like a putz, and I apologize for sounding like a whiner. :oops:

Edit*** my opponent had this idea that we're going to playtest next time:

Take the defensive fire against each plasma, one volley at a time. So, add up all the phasers on a single plasma from a single ship. For each two points of phaser damage done, reduce the plasma by one die rolled. Phaser outside the kill zone are going to have a harder time damaging plasmas. Odd points of damage don't affect plasma and don't accumulate between volleys.

Example... Ship A takes a hit from a Plasma S doing 4 dice of damage. Ship A fires 2 phaser 3s at the plasma one of which hits. Since that phaser by definition in the kill zone, the plasma is reduced to 3 dice of damage. Ship B at range of 6 fires two more phaser 3s at the plasma, one of which hits. However, since it is outside of the kill zone, it only does 1 point of damage, which is then dropped. Ship C at a range of 8 fires and hits with three phaser 2s at the plasma. again, it's outside of the kill zone, so 3 points of damage are done to the plasma reducing it by 1 die of damage. However the odd point of damage from Ship B and Ship C are not combined but are instead lost. Ship A takes two dice of plasma damage.

What this will do, is that a ship defending itself with it's own phasers will do so quite well, however, a ship using IDF to defend another ship may have a much harder time having any effect.

Example: A D5W defends itself against 6AD of plasma with 6 Phaser-1 under the current system. A nearby ship on IDF adds 2 phaser-1s to the defense.

5/6ths of the D5W's phaser-1s hit, reducing the AD to 1. 2 phasers fire from a nearby ship, with one hitting and reducing the AD to zero.

Under the new system, the D5W scores 5 of 6 hits, all of which are in kill zone (2 pts each) and reduce the plasma to 1AD. However, the nearby ship is out of kill zone, and scores only one hit, which is not enough to reduce the last AD of plasma...which hits the D5W.

I suspect the main result of such a change will be to encourage any ships using IDF to remain within kill zone range of each other so they can be most effective. I'm not sure it'll make a major difference, but we'll see.
 
billclo said:
So I guess I am posting this to say that had we had time to continue the game, the Klingons probably would have lost (barring some major error on the part of the Gorns)...that second plasma salvo was rather decisive. I shouldn't have complained quite so bitterly about it like a putz, and I apologize for sounding like a whiner. :oops:

Ah, you forgot the number one rule of wargaming - never, ever give up :)

billclo said:
Take the defensive fire against each plasma, one volley at a time. So, add up all the phasers on a single plasma from a single ship. For each two points of phaser damage done, reduce the plasma by one die rolled. Phaser outside the kill zone are going to have a harder time damaging plasmas. Odd points of damage don't affect plasma and don't accumulate between volleys.

My prediction: You will try this, like it, and use it. Then, one day (maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime, and soon), your opponent will come to you and say the rule is over powered because he keeps getting smashed by plasmas :)
 
msprange said:
Ah, you forgot the number one rule of wargaming - never, ever give up :)

Except in you're playing a campaign, in which case if its early in the fight and your very expensive Battlecruiser is taking worrying amounts of damage then sometimes it IS better "give up" and run away to fight another day. :mrgreen:
 
GalagaGalaxian said:
msprange said:
Ah, you forgot the number one rule of wargaming - never, ever give up :)

Except in you're playing a campaign, in which case if its early in the fight and your very expensive Battlecruiser is taking worrying amounts of damage then sometimes it IS better "give up" and run away to fight another day. :mrgreen:
Ah, one of Rincewind's graduates I see. "He who turns and runs away, live to run another day!" :lol:
 
To be fair, i was originally in the 'Plasma is stoped by phaser's too easily' camp, but after a few games with Gorn (against Federation), i'm now not so sure - though still think the P-3 is possibly to good vs plasma, but can live with it. A a recent game (1000pts), i killed 2 federations Cruisers in One turn with Plasma, even after defensive fire (you have to remember to factor in the Critical damage effects).

The main point of this - concentration of force (go stop around 30 AD of plasma (baring lucky rolls) is the way to go - mentioned in many threads, and especially useful for Gorn, Romulan and Federation.
 
I just don't see how Phaser 3's could ever be too good against plasma just because there are so few of them. Most ships have two Phaser 3's, either turreted or 1 each SH/PH. that is two points of plasma knocked down per ship over the entire turn of fire, if they both hit. One lousy plasma F. It just isn't enough to worry about in the overall scheme of things.

When I'm in danger of being plasma reamed, every ship that can IDF does and every phaser 1 that will bear will fire to knock down the 20+ AD of fiery badassery that is threatening me.
 
Also remember if every enemy ship is going IDF then none are using Special Actions that boost their attack or shields, but you still can boost shields or some other helpful SA. If a large percentage of the enemy make the CQ do the math in your head and see whether it is worth firing or not, if you withhold the plasma and just use phasers you may still come out ahead. Of course there are more variables like positioning and range to targets to factor in as well, but remember.... Don't believe in the no-win situation!
 
msprange said:
My prediction: You will try this, like it, and use it. Then, one day (maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime, and soon), your opponent will come to you and say the rule is over powered because he keeps getting smashed by plasmas :)

That would be my kind of luck. :mrgreen:
 
Sorry, the P-3 thing is a holdover from the core systems, where they would basically just annoy a plasma if fired at it (and i know it's ActA, not SFB/FC :D )
 
Keeper Nilbog said:
Sorry, the P-3 thing is a holdover from the core systems, where they would basically just annoy a plasma if fired at it (and i know it's ActA, not SFB/FC :D )

Think of it this way...

We are _not_ modelling the effect of a single phaser-3 on an incoming plasma torpedo. What we are doing is modelling the combined defensive fire of the entire ship, basically stretching out the averages across all defensive measures.

What we are aiming for is a similar effect when the remaining plasma hits as to FC and SFB.
 
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