The other race needs to be tried against is the Shadows - they were very good against the big ships and weak against Scouts - but it would be interesting to see if this is still the case with their downgrade and the Shadows new rules as they are likely to come into AF beam range now to shoot.
Knife Fight White Star Playtest rumblings
- Thread starter Clanger
- Start date
AF mode turns a Young Ship's main weapon into 6AD of accurate mini-beams. Expect 3 of those to hit for nominal 3 points damage. Adaptive armour takes that down to 1 and self repair takes care of that, although the White Star is now minus 1 crew. And the weapon is not even precise any more, reducing the chances of criticals and allowing ineffective bulkhead hits.
Alternatively, since the Shadow will probably win initiative and force a White Star to move first, it can use its beam at full strength, expect 6 hits of which the White Star expects to dodge 3, leaving it with 3 precise triple damage hits. That's the same number of hits as with the accurate AF system, but each doing a lot more harm.
Basically I can see no reason for using AF mode against White Stars, unless the Shadow managed to lose initiative and can't move anything else first, so all the White Stars end up out of arc.
And the White Stars will want to close in anyway - given the Shadow ship's shield and self-repair, they'll want to hit it as hard as possible. The Shadow's normal beam outranges the White Star's laser even before the downgrade, so there's no point in sitting at long range.
Alternatively, since the Shadow will probably win initiative and force a White Star to move first, it can use its beam at full strength, expect 6 hits of which the White Star expects to dodge 3, leaving it with 3 precise triple damage hits. That's the same number of hits as with the accurate AF system, but each doing a lot more harm.
Basically I can see no reason for using AF mode against White Stars, unless the Shadow managed to lose initiative and can't move anything else first, so all the White Stars end up out of arc.
And the White Stars will want to close in anyway - given the Shadow ship's shield and self-repair, they'll want to hit it as hard as possible. The Shadow's normal beam outranges the White Star's laser even before the downgrade, so there's no point in sitting at long range.
depends hugely on the terrain - If one White Star can sit in arc but out of sight - its likely that the others could stay behind the Ship and continue to shoot with impunity - seen it done 
Its better to get some shots at the WS and possibly even crits rather than nothing - especailly if the one thats behind the ship is already damaged.
larger games you maybe scouting for the minibeams (Scout out of range / arc or regenerating safely) as well and TL minibeams are nasty
Its better to get some shots at the WS and possibly even crits rather than nothing - especailly if the one thats behind the ship is already damaged.
larger games you maybe scouting for the minibeams (Scout out of range / arc or regenerating safely) as well and TL minibeams are nasty
I would argue a bit with Mollari's concept of balance.
That's not a balanced list, that's rock paper scissors, and part of what we're trying to minimize. There are two good reasons for this, one is tourney play, and the other is not having to buy two or three fleets depending on what you opponents want to play.
Tourney play won't see races that have a common nemesis fleet, and I would hate to be invested in a fleet and have a tourney finally close enough to play at, only to find out my fleet really doesn't have a chance.
We had issues locally with folks buying into Minbari under previous editions and folks simply refusing to play them. The issue was balance at one point, but mostly that to fight them at all evenly you had to bring fairly specific builds... and that just got you up to viable play for a number of races.
Both of those players largely moved on to other games.... Most ships should have good utility vs most races, with only needing a couple of swap outs at most to be viable vs most races. Whole point of any kind of points system/pl system is to give a rough estimate of how good most things are vs most opponents.
Ripple
That's not a balanced list, that's rock paper scissors, and part of what we're trying to minimize. There are two good reasons for this, one is tourney play, and the other is not having to buy two or three fleets depending on what you opponents want to play.
Tourney play won't see races that have a common nemesis fleet, and I would hate to be invested in a fleet and have a tourney finally close enough to play at, only to find out my fleet really doesn't have a chance.
We had issues locally with folks buying into Minbari under previous editions and folks simply refusing to play them. The issue was balance at one point, but mostly that to fight them at all evenly you had to bring fairly specific builds... and that just got you up to viable play for a number of races.
Both of those players largely moved on to other games.... Most ships should have good utility vs most races, with only needing a couple of swap outs at most to be viable vs most races. Whole point of any kind of points system/pl system is to give a rough estimate of how good most things are vs most opponents.
Ripple
mollari_uk
Mongoose
I'm talking about 1 ship not the whole list. Making the ship "balanced" against every other race isn't needed. Making the ISA list blanced is.
A game with as many choices and variants as ACTA will always produce individual imbalances unless every ship was the same. In fact it makes for a much better game if ships aren't balanced because you have to make a choice. That's why there are ships that have a special purpose such as assault ships.
The WS doesn't have to be THE ship to pick. It should do a job and do it well, that's all. IMO the new version does that. It might not be perfect but no ship should be.
I think that we do indeed need to see how the WS operates with other vessels as aprt of a combined arms team - my reservation against this is that this promotes the use of allies and reduces the likelyhood of pure WS fleets which is bit more representative of the show.
At present the Centauri, mixed League, maybe Dilgar and probably the Drakh / Minbari will be enhanced against the new WS's
Abbai / EA / Narn better - in fact probably a proper game.
as long as the gunship stays the same the ISA should remain resonably potent - but with fewer WS's on the gmaing tables which is a bit of a shame.
At present the Centauri, mixed League, maybe Dilgar and probably the Drakh / Minbari will be enhanced against the new WS's
Abbai / EA / Narn better - in fact probably a proper game.
as long as the gunship stays the same the ISA should remain resonably potent - but with fewer WS's on the gmaing tables which is a bit of a shame.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
mollari_uk said:
Unfortunately, the WS is not a single ship. It is both the ISA choices at raid, and the Gunship and Enforcer are based very closely on it.
(I know, the Gunship still has 18" range, but the Enforcer has reduced range).
So a nerf to the WS has nerfed three ships (and should logically nerf 4 or even 5).
i agree with DB. the enforcer is a gunship variant and so should be the same ranges. think because at one point the enforcer was a WS variant matt may have got confused.
I also agree with others that now you cant just use WSs and hope for the best against everyone, you have to consider allies, or WS gunships, or even nolo'tars for their higher damage. basically the all WS fleet will struggle against certain fleets like centauri/vree but they also do have advantages against both these fleets - centauri no rear arcs, and poor flank arcs, vree low hull and no defenses.
I also agree with others that now you cant just use WSs and hope for the best against everyone, you have to consider allies, or WS gunships, or even nolo'tars for their higher damage. basically the all WS fleet will struggle against certain fleets like centauri/vree but they also do have advantages against both these fleets - centauri no rear arcs, and poor flank arcs, vree low hull and no defenses.
