Kind of Missing the Point?

[alex_greene]

All, or at most practically all, the technical questions here have centered around combat and making the most of one's dice rolls, and clarifications of Strike Ranks, CAs, CMs, charging, the ranges of bows versus slings, yadda yadda. You're given a game setting made of solid gold coins and you're still spending it on copper penny sweets and telling the shopkeeper to keep the change. This isn't D&D, and for all that there's a lovely thick combat section in the core rulebook, there are other sections too, and other skills, and other kinds of scenarios than just emulating D&D.

Just once I'd love it if someone came along and said "Ooh! Ooh! What about using the extended task rules from Arms of Legend in an Art (Sculpture) or Craft (Writing) roll?" or "What about using the extended task rules from Arms of Legend in a Seduction or Influence, a Commerce or Evaluate roll?" or "Ooh! Ooh! If you're attempting the Seduction skill, what is it opposed by if the NPC being seduced seems reticent, because maybe she'd just broken up and is still feeling sore, or because she is really a he disguised as a girl because he's actually a spy sent to infiltrate the Lord's compound, but the player's so persuasive and despite himself, he is having these feelings ...?"

How about someone asking a question about using CHA to maintain the morale of a fighting population when their morale takes a nosedive as soon as the siege engines make their first appearance? Or a question about handling opposed extended Shiphandling skills in a chase between vessels on the High Seas? Come on, I know Pirates of Legend is still some way away but we can improvise, me hearties ...

Anything other than just hand to hand blinking melee combat!

 

[danskmacabre]

I'm pretty comfortable with the non-combat rules. There's not a lot to it really.
But combat is VERY varied, complicated and happens under lots of different circumstances.

Just because there's lot of combat rules questions DOESN'T necessarily mean that's all people are doing.

Probably about half (give or take 20% here and there) of my gaming sessions are actually combat.
Some sessions are ALL RP and no combat, some sessions are ALL combat.
Actually out of combat game mechanics I sometimes waive completely anyway, if a character has a high seduction or whatever, if they can TALK in RL (meaning actually come up with a good line as opposed to a good dice roll) their way around a problem and do a good job I don't bother with the dice roll at all.

Personally I think you're getting wound up over this without actually asking people how they handle out of combat RP first and unnecessarily stressing yourself.

 

[Greg Smith]

While combat isn't the be all and end all of RPGing, it generally does make up a big chunk of the rules. It is a far more interesting activity for the group than one character sitting down and writing a book, while another carves a statue.

Also the issues of combat styles and 1 weapon vs 2 never seem to go away.

 

[Simulacrum]

A lot of what Alex brings up is in AoT. The broader application of Extended Task rules to non-craft skills like Seduction (which involved discussion with Loz) I regard as being essentially GM advice. I am perfectly happy for applications of the standard rules like that to be lifted and shared on the forum if it is of help to fuel debate and discussion or answer 'how can I do..?' questions.

 

[hanszurcher]

Ah yes, ...If you don't play my way then you're just playing D&D.

That never grows old. :roll:

 

[rust]

Anything other than just hand to hand blinking melee combat!

"The huge majority of adventurers I have seen are just wande-
ring brigands and graverobbers who need an at least partially
failed society at their background to kill people and take their
stuff without the risk of retaliation and legal consequences and
who make up tall stories about how useful they are to the realm
because of their ability to kill more people and take more stuff
than the average citizen. Melee combat and the rules and tools
of that trade are as exclusively important to them as ships are
to sailors or fields are to farmers, so it really is no surprise that
they show little interest in more honest activities. When we en-
counter adventurers on our borders, we give them an hour to
move on or be burned alive, so our artists and scholars and all
our other citizens can continue to work in peace."

(Danel, First Sufet of New-Atanis)

 

[alex_greene]

Ah yes, ...If you don't play my way then you're just playing D&D

Ah, yes ... if you've got all these wild and wonderful other skills, but all your players are intent on doing is being "the team fighter," "the team cleric with her healing spells," "the team artillery guy with fireball," "the team thief with sneak attacks, spotting traps and picking locks," and using nothing but their Combat Styles to fight kobolds and orcs down in dungeons and taking the stuff off their corpses, then you're just playing D&D.

 

[soltakss]

Most non-combat stuff is pretty easy and handled by a combination of skill rolls and Opposed Rolls.

Sometimes we talk things through, decide the best way to do something and then roll the dice. Takes a minute or two.

Things like Shiphandling to evade a ship are also quite simple - a mixture of Opposed skills and narration.

Combat is fiddlier and messier, with a lot of options.

I would like to see Combat Manoeuvres expanded to other areas, but the problem is thinking of good examples.

 

[Savage Yinn]

Character Death

From the play testing I've been doing with a few friends I know that combat in Legend is deadly. When I run the game for my group I don't want a player to have his character die from a combat rule I don't know about, or haven't foreseen the consequences of.

On the other hand, if a character engages in a contest of writing or pottery, to the death, then if I can't see a good way to handle the contest in a fair way I'll ask about it.

Yes, I can see where crafting will be essential to the advancement of the characters goals (they are in a guild of bakers and to advance to the next rank they need to produce a masterpiece cake) but without "Cake or Death!" the drama will come from getting the right components to complete the task at hand.

 

[Deleriad]

I would like to see Combat Manoeuvres expanded to other areas, but the problem is thinking of good examples.

And of course, rule book bloat. The game could certainly have done with some little bit of text which said, of course in any opposed roll contest if one side gets one or more degrees of success then they could gain some extra advantage other than just winning. Rather than prescribing a list though, the GM and players should come up with something that fits the situation.

E.g. a player character at a masked ball is pumping the dowager for information and succeeds with a normal Seduction roll while she fails her Persistence so gets a Degree of success. As well as discovering the whereabouts of his imprisoned companion he learns that she is worried about her son who seems to have fallen under the sway of a mysterious stranger.

 

[Prime_Evil]

I do think there's an opportunity to expand on elements such as the extended task rules since these aren't fully integrated into the core rules.

I'm pretty happy with the Legend combat rules. There are a few rough edges (*cough* charging... *cough*), but on the whole they work quite well - doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

Most of the areas where I would like to see tweaks are in the area of the magic rules, which still seem quite fast and loose in comparison to the combat rules.

I would definitely like to see a few new heroic abilities that aren't combat-oriented...

 

[caul]

Ah yes, ...If you don't play my way then you're just playing D&D

Ah, yes ... if you've got all these wild and wonderful other skills, but all your players are intent on doing is being "the team fighter," "the team cleric with her healing spells," "the team artillery guy with fireball," "the team thief with sneak attacks, spotting traps and picking locks," and using nothing but their Combat Styles to fight kobolds and orcs down in dungeons and taking the stuff off their corpses, then you're just playing D&D.

Wow, I kind of find this insulting. Sorry Alex, but you see, some of us role play to enjoy adventure, like killing evil creatures and looting dungeons for cool and interesting gear. Yes, other things come into it to, like world building and such, but really, sometimes, I want to kill things and take their stuff. It's not D&D, it's not Legend, it's not any other game system out there. It's ADVENTURE GAMING! I had respect for you too on your Reptilian work...too bad that all just went away...

 

[alex_greene]

Character Death

From the play testing I've been doing with a few friends I know that combat in Legend is deadly. When I run the game for my group I don't want a player to have his character die from a combat rule I don't know about, or haven't foreseen the consequences of.

On the other hand, if a character engages in a contest of writing or pottery, to the death, then if I can't see a good way to handle the contest in a fair way I'll ask about it.

Yes, I can see where crafting will be essential to the advancement of the characters goals (they are in a guild of bakers and to advance to the next rank they need to produce a masterpiece cake) but without "Cake or Death!" the drama will come from getting the right components to complete the task at hand.

Combat doesn't have to end in death. Combat doesn't have to involve nothing but melee weapons.

It can be far, far more deadly.

Remember the song "The Devil Came Down To Georgia?" There you go. Epic, major conflict between the Devil and Johnny, with nothing but an opposed Play Instrument roll, and the stakes being Johnny's very soul.

I'd rather have the characters fighting Death over a game of chess, or Twister, than just "roll initiative," and what if the characters initiated the duel, but the challenged gets to choose the weapons - and he chooses poetry or sculpture or pottery, something he knows he's good at, and at stake being the winner's status in society?

Look at the AoT article "Strictly Courtroom" for a scenario where the conflict is as real as any bout of sword swinging, and the stake is still death - the character who loses and is found guilty will hang, and all his friends with him as conspirators in a crime they never committed.

Combat Style - Oratory. Roll initiative.

 

[Loz]

I do think there's an opportunity to expand on elements such as the extended task rules since these aren't fully integrated into the core rules.

They're very flexible. I've integrated them fully into RQ6 and we've even shown how to use them for Social Conflict situations.

 

[alex_greene]

I do think there's an opportunity to expand on elements such as the extended task rules since these aren't fully integrated into the core rules.

They're very flexible. I've integrated them fully into RQ6 and we've even shown how to use them for Social Conflict situations.

Which will put RQ6 on a par with the social combat rules devised in White Wolf's Vampire: the Requiem - and one of a very few games extant which does have such emphasis.

I just gave a number of examples of Social Combat skills above - Play Instrument, Oratory, Gambling, Seduction. It will be extremely cool to see material such as this outlined.

 

[rust]

Which will put RQ6 on a par with the social combat rules devised in White Wolf's Vampire: the Requiem - and one of a very few games extant which does have such emphasis.

I think you should perhaps take a look at the GURPS Social Engineering
PDF by William Stoddard, it has lots of interesting ideas for dealing with
all kinds of social situations, and not only as "social combat". While it is
written for the GURPS system, many of the ideas can be borrowed and
adapted for other systems - like for example Legend - without much ef-
fort.

 

[Savage Yinn]

BING!

I just got it.


I now know why people are mainly asking about combat, it's why they have picked up these rules in the first place.

I run a lot of games, using lots of different rules sets. The Song of Ice and Fire RPG has amazing 'social combat' rules, it even echo's physical combat having the same systems but with different abilities and manoeuvres. So if I'm planning on a game that has lots of social interaction in a fantasy setting I'll look towards that system.

Different rules sets bring a different focus to the table, for me Legend brings gritty and deadly old school combat. That's something that I want to include in the game I'm planning, so that's why I'm interested in Legend and what it can bring to the table.

I came because of the combat and I've stayed because of the social aspect of the game. The guilds & cults that make up a huge part of the game are an addition that I can see will provide a huge host of opportunities for my players to get caught up in schemes and have a lot of fun attempting to get themselves promoted to the highest ranks.

 

[Mixster]

Ah yes, ...If you don't play my way then you're just playing D&D

Ah, yes ... if you've got all these wild and wonderful other skills, but all your players are intent on doing is being "the team fighter," "the team cleric with her healing spells," "the team artillery guy with fireball," "the team thief with sneak attacks, spotting traps and picking locks," and using nothing but their Combat Styles to fight kobolds and orcs down in dungeons and taking the stuff off their corpses, then you're just playing D&D.

You're not though, you are playing a much smoother, realistic and balanced system were fighting kobolds and orcs in dungeons is actually a challenge.

If you say screw combat and magic and just play with seduction are you really playing legend?

The non-combat rules in legend happen to work really well, while there are still a lot of wording issues with the combat rules. Hence there's more questions about the combat rules, and they are probably used more too.

 

[Prime_Evil]

I do think there's an opportunity to expand on elements such as the extended task rules since these aren't fully integrated into the core rules.

They're very flexible. I've integrated them fully into RQ6 and we've even shown how to use them for Social Conflict situations.

Well...you've definitely sold me a copy now! :lol:

Are we also going to get some additional rules for slow tasks such as research or construction?

 

[Loz]

Are we also going to get some additional rules for slow tasks such as research or construction?

You don't need 'em. The crafting rules can be applied to any task that requires a bit of time, investment and quality of result. Want to research that grimoire? Substitute a Lore roll for a Craft roll and there you go. Want to seduce that comely noble? Use Seduction. Building a bridge? Engineering...

How many copies should I mark you down for?