Kargash Light Cruiser

[Condottiere]

Didn't we have an interchangeable component missile system?

Or am I confusing that with real life?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Special Supplement 3 allows the gunner to assemble missile components...

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

No need to update Traveller. It is already there in the form of makers.

In his novel, Agent of the Imperium, Marc has an IN fleet scrub a world. They do this in part by building maneuver drives onto asteroids using their makers to construct the parts needed to make the engines. The asteroids are then used to bombard the world. They also manufacture KK missiles IIRC.

Sci-fi enough for you?

Actually, no, way too retro; please see the following properly formed argument about why hurling asteroids just isn’t worth the effort: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rocks_Are_Not_Free!

 

[phavoc]

The one thing shared amongst most sci-fi settings that have nearly free products from "miracle" production method (replicators in ST, X generation 3D printing for Traveller, or in Marc's novel) is that it destroys the concept of trade. Think about it - if you could assemble whatever you wanted just by willy-nilly mining an asteroid belt or planet, there would be no inherent need for intersystem trade, aside from curios and and odd hand-made item. Of course this sort of reality check busts the basic underlying background for any universe, so most just tend to ignore it and indulge in the gee-whiz factors of the tech.

But if one is going to get serious about talking about the tech and advocating for it's inclusion in the base gaming system, then one should also step back and justify just why there are these huge Class A startports sitting all over the Imperium (for Traveller) if there is no inherent need to trade.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

The one thing shared amongst most sci-fi settings that have nearly free products from "miracle" production method (replicators in ST, X generation 3D printing for Traveller, or in Marc's novel) is that it destroys the concept of trade. Think about it - if you could assemble whatever you wanted just by willy-nilly mining an asteroid belt or planet, there would be no inherent need for intersystem trade, aside from curios and and odd hand-made item. Of course this sort of reality check busts the basic underlying background for any universe, so most just tend to ignore it and indulge in the gee-whiz factors of the tech.

But if one is going to get serious about talking about the tech and advocating for it's inclusion in the base gaming system, then one should also step back and justify just why there are these huge Class A startports sitting all over the Imperium (for Traveller) if there is no inherent need to trade.

You are looking at only the most basic concept of what I said, and not any of the significant detail. Take my Laser Rifle example. I am clearly presenting it as something that can’t be built with 3D printing technology. The stimulation laser and the gain medium clearly have to be sourced from a manufacturer. That means trade. Everything else in that rifle can be printed or rapid prototyped now. No “miracle replicator” required.

Raw materials are clearly something that is worth shipping; many would rather not spoil their garden worlds, and would rather outsource their materials. In return, they can ship fresh, organic food, grown from healthy soil, pollutant free. You can’t 3D print custom organic compounds to reproduce nutrition, much less flavor. Sure, you can grind up some plants and animals into a paste, and 3D print that into a custom shape, and then maybe bread and fry it, but you have to start with the natural stuff; might look fancy at a party, though.

Also, I’m not assuming that 3D printing is the most efficient way of doing things either, because it isn’t. 3D printing takes time that a traditional assembly line doesn’t take, and costs energy that a traditional assembly line doesn’t cost. But if you’re starting an insurrection on a planet, and need to start mass-producing missiles, armor, and comms gear on the down-low, 3D printing and rapid prototyping is your best friend.

I’m not advocating for anything we can’t do now; but I am insisting on everything we can do now. Traveller has to catch up to the modern world, or risk being left behind.

 

[PsiTraveller]

We've strayed pretty far from the Kargash cruiser, but I'll keep adding on.

The risk of advanced production in a game (or in real life), is the end of caomparitive advantage of trade. If anyone can make a factory staffed with robots to make a widget, why ship widgets, just ship the raw materials to make the widgets. 3D printing, robotic factories, nanotech, Makers and replicators. Easy production of goods ends up with players in TL 15 armour if they can arrange it.

Look at diamonds. http://www.wired.com/2003/09/diamond/ and http://renaissancediamonds.com/
Synthetic diamonds. The machine could be on a ship and methane from skimming could be used to make diamonds during Jump. If your low tech planet values gems the players could make a killing. The same applies to other gemstones.

Could a high tech machine make the circuit board for the TL 15 laser rifle? Could a robot programmed with the ability? How much processing module would need to be built to mass produce laser rifles?

As for food there was a very interesting article about Imperial control of food production http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/culture/reference/shuluum.html

Synthetic food production to feed the masses is being researched in our timeline. 3D printing of food and flavoured protein cutlets are available now. Maybe CC asteroid harvesting and food production is the next asteroid mining rush. The Heechee had the CHON food factories in the Oort cloud. A Starport may be skimming methane gas giants for food as well as fuel. Your organic vegetables may be for the rich and the elite. Vat grown food may be for the huddled masses.

It depends how far the GM wants to allow the ideas that are possible in tech to distort the universe he is trying to run a game in. If the universe could be full of self contained bubble habitats that are almost self sufficient, how much fun will a game be? Making things too easy may make them not fun to play with.

 

[phavoc]

You are looking at only the most basic concept of what I said, and not any of the significant detail. Take my Laser Rifle example. I am clearly presenting it as something that can’t be built with 3D printing technology. The stimulation laser and the gain medium clearly have to be sourced from a manufacturer. That means trade. Everything else in that rifle can be printed or rapid prototyped now. No “miracle replicator” required.

Raw materials are clearly something that is worth shipping; many would rather not spoil their garden worlds, and would rather outsource their materials. In return, they can ship fresh, organic food, grown from healthy soil, pollutant free. You can’t 3D print custom organic compounds to reproduce nutrition, much less flavor. Sure, you can grind up some plants and animals into a paste, and 3D print that into a custom shape, and then maybe bread and fry it, but you have to start with the natural stuff; might look fancy at a party, though.

Also, I’m not assuming that 3D printing is the most efficient way of doing things either, because it isn’t. 3D printing takes time that a traditional assembly line doesn’t take, and costs energy that a traditional assembly line doesn’t cost. But if you’re starting an insurrection on a planet, and need to start mass-producing missiles, armor, and comms gear on the down-low, 3D printing and rapid prototyping is your best friend.

I’m not advocating for anything we can’t do now; but I am insisting on everything we can do now. Traveller has to catch up to the modern world, or risk being left behind.

Actually, I wasn't talking about your point at all (though I do believe it to be valid). Amazingly enough people sometimes comment in a thread and it's not just about your point of view.

However you miss the point. Why would you ship basic raw materials between systems? The cost per Dton to even ship food makes it questionable. Your argument about despoiling garden worlds is rather silly as well. Why would you bother going down into a gravity well when you had so many things floating around? And you'd be hard pressed to find a system that has ONLY a garden world and no other planetary body that can be mined for materials. It is FAR cheaper, and quicker, to utilize your own system for basic materials and import only manufactured goods you cannot make at present. Bulk shipping in Traveller isn't nearly as efficient or cheap as it is in reality.

As far as "printing" food, H Beam Piper (where the Sworld Worlds were lifted from) used a technology called carniculture. Essentially it was a vat of chemicals that you tossed in a piece of meat and it "grew", and you cut off what you wanted to eat. It's not printing, per se, but close enough. There are also food synthesizers in the books that will actually create nutritious food from the basic materials - though fresh food is preferable and tastier. If you are "insisting" on "everything" we can do today, you need to be insisting on printing food as well. We can print organs today (in the lab), though I won't swear to how tasty - or not - they might be.

My point was that if these proposals were to take off and you eliminated the need for trading, the Traveller universe would be looking far different. Trade would take place on the outer boundaries for systems that have yet to build up their own infrastructure. But core systems would be doing almost no trading excepting for luxury goods because everything else would be created locally. Poor Adam Smith would not know what to do with himself in the 52nd century.

So gamemasters need to be careful about the overall application of this sort in their gaming universe if they want to not break the economic model. Or, they could simply hand wave it all away in the interest of gaming and not even worry about it.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Manufacturing techniques don’t change whether or not there is trade, just what gets traded.

It’s all supply and demand. If there’s too much supply for that thing, and demand has been exceeded, there’s no reason to trade it. Demand for raw materials, however, goes up; and so raw materials get traded more.

The reason the third world on Earth is starving is not because food is too expensive. It’s because shipping any food is too expensive; the value of that food is an insignificant rounding error compared to the shipping.

Just about all circuit boards today are made from the same materials; the same fiberglass insulation layer, and the same copper. This has not always been true, and may not be true again, but for now, it is. The same prototyping machine can make a board for a smartphone, or it can make it for a stupid consumer LED clock. You wouldn’t manufacture with a prototyping machine, because, as I said, the cost in time and power is too inefficient; but you can make a few, which you otherwise couldn’t do.

The ability to make anything isn’t the same as being able to make anything efficiently. Nor is it just a matter of the technology being in its infancy. For any given object, 3D printing it is the hard way to make it; it may get better than it is now, but it will never be better than manufacturing at economies of scale. But it has value, because you might never know what you need until you suddenly need that thing. Militaries will value being able to make anything they need on the fly, but they’ll also value being able to get a lot at once rather quickly.

Finally, the value of diamonds is artificially inflated due to hoarding and cultural reasons; they’re only a good example of why monopolies are bad, and not a good example of the value of something changing drastically due to disruptive technology upending the marketplace.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Actually, I wasn't talking about your point at all (though I do believe it to be valid). Amazingly enough people sometimes comment in a thread and it's not just about your point of view.

However you miss the point. Why would you ship basic raw materials between systems? The cost per Dton to even ship food makes it questionable. Your argument about despoiling garden worlds is rather silly as well. Why would you bother going down into a gravity well when you had so many things floating around? And you'd be hard pressed to find a system that has ONLY a garden world and no other planetary body that can be mined for materials. It is FAR cheaper, and quicker, to utilize your own system for basic materials and import only manufactured goods you cannot make at present. Bulk shipping in Traveller isn't nearly as efficient or cheap as it is in reality.

As far as "printing" food, H Beam Piper (where the Sworld Worlds were lifted from) used a technology called carniculture. Essentially it was a vat of chemicals that you tossed in a piece of meat and it "grew", and you cut off what you wanted to eat. It's not printing, per se, but close enough. There are also food synthesizers in the books that will actually create nutritious food from the basic materials - though fresh food is preferable and tastier. If you are "insisting" on "everything" we can do today, you need to be insisting on printing food as well. We can print organs today (in the lab), though I won't swear to how tasty - or not - they might be.

My point was that if these proposals were to take off and you eliminated the need for trading, the Traveller universe would be looking far different. Trade would take place on the outer boundaries for systems that have yet to build up their own infrastructure. But core systems would be doing almost no trading excepting for luxury goods because everything else would be created locally. Poor Adam Smith would not know what to do with himself in the 52nd century.

So gamemasters need to be careful about the overall application of this sort in their gaming universe if they want to not break the economic model. Or, they could simply hand wave it all away in the interest of gaming and not even worry about it.

Not all the systems have the elements and minerals they need. There’s going to be trade between one system and another. Currently, Rare Earth Metals are very valuable. If another star system had them, and could trade with us, we’d be happy to trade for them. And, again, those rules were written with a poor understanding of how minerals would be distributed in one star system or another, and have no application to modern day science and technology; they’re just plain obsolete, and are no proof of anything other than Traveller’s inability to adapt. If bulk shipping in Traveller isn’t realistic, then it just plain needs to be fixed.

“Growing” food is still “growing” it. You aren’t teleporting atoms into place to somehow magically make organic compounds; you are feeding cells, which then multiply, growing the food. It’s still biology, albeit a bit “weird science”. Not the same thing as starting from a filament of raw material and just printing a meat steak.

“Printing Organs” is not a thing currently being done; no one has ever received a transplant of a “printed organ”. They print scaffolds, and organic cells grow on and in the scaffolds, which they currently hope will form the desired shape naturally. The cells aren’t “printed one at a time”. It doesn’t work like that.

My point is that trade wouldn’t be eliminated; it would just be radically different.

Gamemasters don’t have to be careful about anything. Publishers need to get on the ball and do their damn homework. GMs and players shouldn’t have to put up with a game publisher doing lax research.

 

[phavoc]

Not all the systems have the elements and minerals they need. There’s going to be trade between one system and another. Currently, Rare Earth Metals are very valuable. If another star system had them, and could trade with us, we’d be happy to trade for them. And, again, those rules were written with a poor understanding of how minerals would be distributed in one star system or another, and have no application to modern day science and technology; they’re just plain obsolete, and are no proof of anything other than Traveller’s inability to adapt. If bulk shipping in Traveller isn’t realistic, then it just plain needs to be fixed.

“Growing” food is still “growing” it. You aren’t teleporting atoms into place to somehow magically make organic compounds; you are feeding cells, which then multiply, growing the food. It’s still biology, albeit a bit “weird science”. Not the same thing as starting from a filament of raw material and just printing a meat steak.

“Printing Organs” is not a thing currently being done; no one has ever received a transplant of a “printed organ”. They print scaffolds, and organic cells grow on and in the scaffolds, which they currently hope will form the desired shape naturally. The cells aren’t “printed one at a time”. It doesn’t work like that.

My point is that trade wouldn’t be eliminated; it would just be radically different.

Gamemasters don’t have to be careful about anything. Publishers need to get on the ball and do their damn homework. GMs and players shouldn’t have to put up with a game publisher doing lax research.

Traveller doesn't track minerals or materials at that level. I think there are, what, 4 basic types? And the system assumes equivalency in minerals, where in reality what you said is correct - not every system will have abundant supplies of all minerals. However, MOST systems would have abundant supplies of the basic elements (iron, nickel, silica, etc) that comprise the vast majority of your needs. Trace elements would be the only type required, thus the volume of trade would still be vastly reduced from the way the system is currently structured.

As far as the carniculture example, it really is quite simple. And the nanite examples provided in Miller's book is essentially "magically" re-arranging atoms into the structure you want. Though the game doesn't go to quite that extreme.

Organ printing, as I stated, IS currently ongoing in the lab. I never said it was at the point of transplanting. I just said it was going on in the lab. You were the one who was insisting on applying that logic to the future. Yes, today we do 3D print stuff, but it's still got limitations and some things can't be printed and be equivalent.

Trade wouldn't be eliminated, on that we agree on. However it would be vastly reduced. And that doesn't fit with the narrative of trade and starports linking the Imperium together. I expect game publishers to put in a reasonable amount of effort and create an interesting and well-thought out background. But at the end of the day I don't want to play economics and statecraft (that's called reality). I want to game.

Some of this ties back to the OP's original posting, but other parts not so much. The rules as they are today really don't allow for retrofitting say a 60yr old hull with newer electronics and upgraded weapon systems. Which is how ships work today. While not every warship receives a full SLEP like say a carrier might, the hull and powerplant useful lifetime often exceed the weapons and electronics. Just like aircraft today are now getting to be the same way. Cept the poor ol F-105 Thud... they literally flew those things into retirement in just a few years with the operational temp they were used. However Traveller starships don't seem to suffer from any structural fatigue, so hulls can last a very, very long time.

 

[Condottiere]

Most star system economies tend to be self sustaining.

Entertainment media would be easy to import, as Lady GoGo virtual surround concerts are popular Imperium wide.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Special Supplement 3 allows the gunner to assemble missile components...

This supplement was quite good for its time. Now that MGT2 is out, this might be a worthwhile topic to look at again.

As with many previous Traveller books, I feel that there was not enough difference between tech levels to allow for real specialization/optimization.

The basic idea of the supplement was that the missile could be divided into 3 parts - Warhead, Guidance and Propulsion. By installing bigger in one, you skimped in another etc. The 6G limit was hard and fast and the options were limited but interesting.

I think this would be a great TAS book for someone to work up. Add Torpedoes and lots of options at different Tech Levels to account for the various types of missiles/torpedoes mentioned in HG and the main book, add in alien variations and Ortillary and you get a pretty useful supplement for people interested in military type campaigns.

 

[PsiTraveller]

I realized a good production unit to have in a military setting that used Drop Tanks would be a Drop Tank production system. Keep the fight moving forward by making Drop Tanks as you move forward. Extra tanks left in each system add to the supply chain and fast message system.


And a quick question: What are the stats on the makers in T5 ? Could someone post them?

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Traveller doesn't track minerals or materials at that level. I think there are, what, 4 basic types? And the system assumes equivalency in minerals, where in reality what you said is correct - not every system will have abundant supplies of all minerals. However, MOST systems would have abundant supplies of the basic elements (iron, nickel, silica, etc) that comprise the vast majority of your needs. Trace elements would be the only type required, thus the volume of trade would still be vastly reduced from the way the system is currently structured.

Boo hoo. Traveller is obsolete. We both know this. Adding 3D printing without changing the manufacturing, and thus, the trading model, is a mistake. Obviously, the latter need to be changed too. Trying to argue that the rare earth metals needed in neodymium magnets for motors, and for lithium ion batteries, isn’t important to trade is ridiculous. We would all be using electric cars now if we didn’t have to trade with Korea, China, and Afghanistan for the required rare earth metals.

As far as the carniculture example, it really is quite simple. And the nanite examples provided in Miller's book is essentially "magically" re-arranging atoms into the structure you want. Though the game doesn't go to quite that extreme.

Nanites aren’t Hard Science Fiction. They’re very soft. Let’s leave them out of this, since we’re talking about updating Traveller to modern expectations, not beyond them.

Organ printing, as I stated, IS currently ongoing in the lab. I never said it was at the point of transplanting. I just said it was going on in the lab. You were the one who was insisting on applying that logic to the future. Yes, today we do 3D print stuff, but it's still got limitations and some things can't be printed and be equivalent.

It’s being attempted in the lab; no one’s succeeding at it. They can print “meat” and “scaffolding” into useful shapes, but they can’t print blood vessels, neural pathways, and other such things, which an organ needs to perform a useful function. It’s not as simple as just using additional types of print media either, as the cells still don’t bind in the right way to be a complete whole; they just bind randomly, not knowing they’re supposed to be an organ now.

Trade wouldn't be eliminated, on that we agree on. However it would be vastly reduced. And that doesn't fit with the narrative of trade and starports linking the Imperium together. I expect game publishers to put in a reasonable amount of effort and create an interesting and well-thought out background. But at the end of the day I don't want to play economics and statecraft (that's called reality). I want to game.

I see no reason for why it should be at all “reduced”. Different, sure, but I see no reason why it should be reduced. Trade brings supply to demand. It doesn’t matter what is demanded, or why; so long as it is sufficiently demanded, trade will bring it.

Some of this ties back to the OP's original posting, but other parts not so much. The rules as they are today really don't allow for retrofitting say a 60yr old hull with newer electronics and upgraded weapon systems. Which is how ships work today. While not every warship receives a full SLEP like say a carrier might, the hull and powerplant useful lifetime often exceed the weapons and electronics. Just like aircraft today are now getting to be the same way. Cept the poor ol F-105 Thud... they literally flew those things into retirement in just a few years with the operational temp they were used. However Traveller starships don't seem to suffer from any structural fatigue, so hulls can last a very, very long time.

That is another excellent point in how the obsolete rules are violating reasonable modern expectations of how things should perform.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Ship of Theseus paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Q: If the ship has been replaced and retrofitted so that there are no original component left, is it the same ship?
a: the Megacorp holding the mortgage does not care as long as the mortgage gets paid.

The issue for trade is that common elements will not be moved from system to system, there would be no need. So how much material needs to be moved? The challenge for systems may exist if there are no asteroids to harvest, or no has giants to skim. Those systems may lack the easy access to the raw materials to make their TL 15 items.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Corollary answer: The Governments and Navies with which the ship is registered don’t care so long as the total paperwork for each consecutive change on their end is less than a completely new registration. So if you’ve been out of that polity for a long time, and have made lots of changes to your ship, you may have to completely reregister your ship, in spite of not having to do that at the polity you made those consecutive changes in.