Kargash Light Cruiser

[AnotherDilbert]

Then again 21st century Earth isn't a massive hodgepodge of tech levels centering more on the 18th century and not easily reachable by the higher tech industrial nations who produce fewer ships than the rest of the world but rely on those other nations' production for filling out their navies.

From my reading, the Imperium isn't pumping out TL 15 ships from every class A shipyard in greater numbers than local forces and thus relies on huge numbers of 'lesser ships' to take arms in conjunction with each Imperial sector fleet. Remember that only class A starports can build starships. If all class A ports are, as some suggest, Imperial TL 15 then why would ANY ship anywhere be build lower than that? I believe this should also be true for any race.

The vast majority of Imperial citizens live on high population worlds, that also tend to have high tech and good starports. As an estimate 15% of the Imperial population lives in high pop systems with TL 15 and starport A, that is enough to build all the starships the Imperium needs.

Even in the Spinward Marches most people live within a subsector of a high pop, high tech shipyard (Rhylanor, Mora, Glisten, Trin). For a naval ship with J-4 two or three jumps to a repair yard is manageable, but for a J-1 free trader (or SDB) 10 jumps for annual maintenance is unacceptable, hence the free trader is built to be easier to maintain (lower TL).

 

[PsiTraveller]

Higher tech has better software, and the computers to run it. Advanced Fire Control, Launch Control, Evasion for start.

If I have a TL 11 Core 60 Computer, could I buy a TL 15 piece of software and run it on the computer?
As pointed out in other posts, lower tech countries on earth buy advanced missiles and software for systems they want to use for important projects. (and an adventure idea for a kidnapped computer scientist who installs a Stuxnet type virus into the fire control software he has been commanded to write just jumped into my head).


Higher tech probably has better sensor DM, making sensor locks much more likely.

Absolutely, TL 10 is +0 Dm, TL 15 is +2, Tl 12 is +1

Higher tech probably has more armour, so it takes less damage.

Only if it takes the armour and uses up the space needed. A TL 11 ship could use CrystalIron and reduce damage by 11 points. TL 15 could reduce damage by 15 points id they spent the money on enough Bonded Superdense

Higher tech can have more weapon tech upgrades, doing more damage at longer range.

This is true and offers an excellent option for the Navy. A TL 11 Navy could upgrade Pulse Lasers (TL9) with 2 Advantages instead of the 3 that a TL 15 Navy could. Advantage to the TL 15 Navy. This could be a factor I admit. How much of one depends on what Advantages were taken. Since we are talking about a 2000 ton ship they can still be Critted by Turret weapons (I think, unless that will be changed in the new High Guard Release). A TL 11 Turret with enhanced weapons could still Crit the ship.


Higher tech has access to better weapons.

True, if they take them. Turret tech is all the same for TL 11and Tl 15. At the 2000 ton level we are discussing the Barbettes offer some higher level options. TL 11 allows for Particle and Plasma Barbettes. Bays offer more options. TL 11 does not have the Fusion and Tachyon Bays available to them. They would need to stick to Missile, railgun, Particle and Torpedo technology.

I would also offer the option of the TL 11 ship buying TL 15 Advanced missiles to overcome TL 15 defences. It is an option if they can get the missiles from a weapons dealer. Since the Gurps description says these are generally used as missile platforms the option is there to boost the combat performance by buying advanced missiles.

Higher tech has better screens.

True, if taken. Not sure if this ship has them. It could be an upgrade in a convesion or redesign to Mongoose stats.

Higher tech has better point defence.

True, 2D, excellent point. If the ship has Point Defence.

Higher tech can have better performance drives, so can outmaneuver slower ships.

This is a very good point. TL 11 allows only Thrust 5. Thrust 9 seems to be the new combat standard for Mongoose design. This offers a chance to kite the ship from a distance and hope the EW works, or charge the ship to allow closer range higher tech weapons to come to bear. Charging a missile platform ship shortens flight time and EW attempts so there may be a tradeoff. But this does offer a good tactical option.

Higher tech has an advantage in stealth.

True, Superior Stealth is TL 12. This could be overcome with the Protype rules and more money from a TL 11 Navy. The stealth only works if the other ship takes it. it also costs 1 MCr per ton, so in the 2000 ton example you just added 2 Billion Credits to a ship design. If budgets are part of the game the cost per ship may become a factor. Your ships may be better, but you may be outnumbered.

 

[Reynard]

So the word is there are no ships below TL 14-15 in the OTU because the Imperium has had that tech level for at least centuries, longer than the lifespan of ships from ages before TL 14. Since every Class A starport (and most likely Class B) is constructed by the Imperium, they are automatically Imperial maximum even around lover TL worlds. All the craft and ships in the Core and High Guard showing vessels of lower TL need to be upgraded to TL 15 because why would anyone ever build at a lower level at TL 15 shipyards?

Somehow it just sounds fishy.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If I have a TL 11 Core 60 Computer, could I buy a TL 15 piece of software and run it on the computer?

Yes, I think so.

Absolutely, TL 10 is +0 Dm, TL 15 is +2, Tl 12 is +1

Don't forget Signal Processors. TL 15 max is sensor DM +6 and ECM DM +10.

Only if it takes the armour and uses up the space needed. A TL 11 ship could use CrystalIron and reduce damage by 11 points. TL 15 could reduce damage by 15 points id they spent the money on enough Bonded Superdense

11 points of Crystaliron is 13.75% of the ship, 15 points of Bonded is 12%. Either way a serious warship is likely to have max armour.

True, if they take them. Turret tech is all the same for TL 11and Tl 15. At the 2000 ton level we are discussing the Barbettes offer some higher level options. TL 11 allows for Particle and Plasma Barbettes. Bays offer more options. TL 11 does not have the Fusion and Tachyon Bays available to them. They would need to stick to Missile, railgun, Particle and Torpedo technology.

Turrets are for defensive weapons (or particle), mostly useful for swatting missiles and fighters. Barbettes (except missile) are for fighters. Warships use bays if they want to hurt other warships.

I would also offer the option of the TL 11 ship buying TL 15 Advanced missiles to overcome TL 15 defences. It is an option if they can get the missiles from a weapons dealer. Since the Gurps description says these are generally used as missile platforms the option is there to boost the combat performance by buying advanced missiles.

Sure, but that is, I think, mostly an option for a few SDBs or adventurers. If a real navy has access to TL 15 they will want TL 15 ships. How long will the imported missiles continue to work if you do not have the tech to maintain them?

True, if taken. Not sure if this ship has them. It could be an upgrade in a convesion or redesign to Mongoose stats.

Screens are perhaps not absolutely necessary, but extremely useful against the right opponent. Dampers are useful against Fusion Guns and Nukes, both very dangerous weapons. Fusion bays are the bays that does most damage, Fusion barbettes are the fighter weapon that does most damage. Nuclear missiles are the most dangerous weapon in the game. Meson Screens can seriously embarrass a fleet based on Meson spinals.

True, 2D, excellent point. If the ship has Point Defence.

Missiles are the most dangerous weapon in the game. Without point defence you are a sitting duck in a missile duel.

This is a very good point. TL 11 allows only Thrust 5. Thrust 9 seems to be the new combat standard for Mongoose design. This offers a chance to kite the ship from a distance and hope the EW works, or charge the ship to allow closer range higher tech weapons to come to bear. Charging a missile platform ship shortens flight time and EW attempts so there may be a tradeoff. But this does offer a good tactical option.

Quite, if you have slower drives the enemy can choose engagement range. He will not choose in your favour...

True, Superior Stealth is TL 12. This could be overcome with the Protype rules and more money from a TL 11 Navy. The stealth only works if the other ship takes it. it also costs 1 MCr per ton, so in the 2000 ton example you just added 2 Billion Credits to a ship design. If budgets are part of the game the cost per ship may become a factor. Your ships may be better, but you may be outnumbered.

Superior Stealth is very expensive and only useful for special forces, but regular Stealth still gives a DM +∆TL to detection and lock on, very useful against lower tech opponents. Regular Stealth is still expensive.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So the word is there are no ships below TL 14-15 in the OTU because the Imperium has had that tech level for at least centuries, longer than the lifespan of ships from ages before TL 14. Since every Class A starport (and most likely Class B) is constructed by the Imperium, they are automatically Imperial maximum even around lover TL worlds. All the craft and ships in the Core and High Guard showing vessels of lower TL need to be upgraded to TL 15 because why would anyone ever build at a lower level at TL 15 shipyards?

Somehow it just sounds fishy.

I don't think so. I think a starport can only build ships of the system's TL.

For warships TL 15 is just too good not to use, but commercial ships can be lower TL. Small Traders and Scouts that are designed to used away from the major trade routes probably find the ease of maintenance of lower TL desirable.

So, I do not see a problem with most warships being TL 15, most large freighters and liners being TL 12-13, and most Free Traders TL 9-10.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The General shipyard on Regina built TL15 Kinunir class ships, including black globes, for the IN.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So the word is there are no ships below TL 14-15 in the OTU because the Imperium has had that tech level for at least centuries, longer than the lifespan of ships from ages before TL 14.

Nope, that is not what is being said at all.
The IN only builds TL15 warships, canon is pretty clear about this.
Civilian, IN auxiliaries, subsector and planetary navy, and paramilitary ships may be any TL.

Since every Class A starport (and most likely Class B) is constructed by the Imperium, they are automatically Imperial maximum even around lover TL worlds.

Again nope - civilian shipyards are tied to local TL plus what they can import. An IN shipyard at an IN naval base is TL 15 though.

All the craft and ships in the Core and High Guard showing vessels of lower TL need to be upgraded to TL 15 because why would anyone ever build at a lower level at TL 15 shipyards?

Civilian ships will be built with civilian maintenance in mind. IN vessels are maintained at TL15 IN bases - which are TL15 irrespective of world TL.

Somehow it just sounds fishy.

Nope, you are just trying to make it so.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The General shipyard on Regina built TL15 Kinunir class ships, including black globes, for the IN.

That was not quite regular even back in '79, since Regina was TL 10 then:

The technological level of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the tech level of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard. All higher tech level equipment must be imported, at 50% surcharge.

and definitely not in later editions:

The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship). Equipment and components of a starship may always be equal to or less than the ship's tech level.

General Products may operate a TL15 shipyard on Regina, but that is the exception, nor the general rule.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And yet it is holy writ - the General Shipyards on TL10 (much later retconned to TL12) Regina built TL15 state of the art Kinunir class cruisers for the IN.

Inference - IN naval bases include ship construction facilities that may be run by megacorporation subcontractors and can construct ships at TL15 regardless of local world TL.

This makes a lot of sense since any IN base has to be able to repair and refit, and conduct maintenance on IN TL15 warships that come calling.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Again nope - civilian shipyards are tied to local TL plus what they can import. An IN shipyard at an IN naval base is TL 15 though.

I don't think naval bases builds warships, that is only depots.

Naval: A naval base is a supply depot, refuelling station, repair yard or fortress of either the Imperial Navy or the local sector navy.

Maintenance and some repair? Yes.
Shipbuilding? No?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And yet it is holy writ - the General Shipyards on TL10 (much later retconned to TL12) Regina built TL15 state of the art Kinunir class cruisers for the IN.

Inference - IN naval bases include ship construction facilities that may be run by megacorporation subcontractors and can construct ships at TL15 regardless of local world TL.

This makes a lot of sense since any IN base has to be able to repair and refit, and conduct maintenance on IN TL15 warships that come calling.

The Great Referee called GDW gave us a Rule, but also an Exception. The exception does not imply the rules are wrong?

 

[Reynard]

And I did a quick survey of Spinward Marches for Class A starports with Naval bases. Oh, by the way, LBB9 Library Data states naval bases are for service and repair. They need a separate Class A starport in the system to build ships. The only contenders for the parameters are Rhylanor, Mora, Glisten and Trin. Four yards to feed a Sector fleet every ship type used by sector elements and for the money and construction time these do little else. I have a feeling the Zho's are in the same boat.

I looked over 3rd Imperium Sector Fleet and the descriptions indicate there is a lot of room for subsector and planetary navies to use the resources at hand as it isn't their primary task to fight the enemy dead on but to either assist the sector fleets when necessary and defend as best as possible. A lower tech ship is still a fighting ship when the powerhouse fleets and squadrons are busy going toe to toe with other powerhouse opposition. When the opposition sends their cheaper, more common fleets on raids there's is something there waiting for them. You're going to see large assets of ships at all tech levels for the price holding borders until the sector admiralty can coordinate their forces where needed and smaller numbers of available vessels over such large areas of space guaranteed nothing. So yeah, I'd say vessels of all tech levels are valid when properly assigned in the proper locations for the proper circumstance. Not every shipyard will specialize in warships if there's no special need so go with Class A ports with naval bases with lower local tech level as focal point for such builds. Even then, system resources dictate if they can afford such costs and would rather build money making commercial vessels. Money can lose wars faster than a bullet.

 

[phavoc]

With certain technologies a shipyard on a TL12 planet could easily build the TL15 equipment required. If it wasn't manufactured locally then the entire item or components of it would be shipped in from offplanet for assembly. It's no different than what we do today.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And yet it is holy writ - the General Shipyards on TL10 (much later retconned to TL12) Regina built TL15 state of the art Kinunir class cruisers for the IN.

Inference - IN naval bases include ship construction facilities that may be run by megacorporation subcontractors and can construct ships at TL15 regardless of local world TL.

This makes a lot of sense since any IN base has to be able to repair and refit, and conduct maintenance on IN TL15 warships that come calling.

The Great Referee called GDW gave us a Rule, but also an Exception. The exception does not imply the rules are wrong?

GDW ignored the rules as written for their setting:
Gazelle hardpoints
jump torpedoes
x-boats with no power plant

Not many people have noticed that TL10 Regina had a shipyard producing state of the art TL15 warships, but there it is in the setting...

 

[Sigtrygg]

And I did a quick survey of Spinward Marches for Class A starports with Naval bases. Oh, by the way, LBB9 Library Data states naval bases are for service and repair. They need a separate Class A starport in the system to build ships.

No they don't.
Civilian startport class does not prevent a planet from building ships. And once again I refer you to TL10 Regina having building TL15 IN warships.

The only contenders for the parameters are Rhylanor, Mora, Glisten and Trin. Four yards to feed a Sector fleet every ship type used by sector elements and for the money and construction time these do little else. I have a feeling the Zho's are in the same boat.

And the total population of those worlds is...

I looked over 3rd Imperium Sector Fleet and the descriptions indicate there is a lot of room for subsector and planetary navies to use the resources at hand as it isn't their primary task to fight the enemy dead on but to either assist the sector fleets when necessary and defend as best as possible. A lower tech ship is still a fighting ship when the powerhouse fleets and squadrons are busy going toe to toe with other powerhouse opposition.

Yup so send those Sopwith Camels to deal with the Chinese knock off Migs...

When the opposition sends their cheaper, more common fleets on raids there's is something there waiting for them.

The Zhodani fleet and the Solomani fleet are TL14...

You're going to see large assets of ships at all tech levels for the price holding borders until the sector admiralty can coordinate their forces where needed and smaller numbers of available vessels over such large areas of space guaranteed nothing.

Now you are starting to see the difference between In fleet assets and subsector forces - d o you have FFW? ANd no, by the time the sector admiralty knows what is going on it is far too late - communication lag in Traveller is the most misunderstood part of the setting.

So yeah, I'd say vessels of all tech levels are valid when properly assigned in the proper locations for the proper circumstance.

I completely agree.

Not every shipyard will specialize in warships if there's no special need so go with Class A ports with naval bases with lower local tech level as focal point for such builds.

Yup, I agree with you there as well.

Even then, system resources dictate if they can afford such costs and would rather build money making commercial vessels. Money can lose wars faster than a bullet.

Most definitely - by the way this is a fun discussion and many thanks for keeping it civil (I apologise if I come across as a bit of an arse but message boards are not a substitute for face to face).

 

[Sigtrygg]

With certain technologies a shipyard on a TL12 planet could easily build the TL15 equipment required. If it wasn't manufactured locally then the entire item or components of it would be shipped in from offplanet for assembly. It's no different than what we do today.

The Traveller Adventure maguffin is that the IN transport TL15 meson guns to be installed in their locally produced hulls...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

GDW ignored the rules as written for their setting:
Gazelle hardpoints
jump torpedoes
x-boats with no power plant

I think that was legal in early Traveller, the rules changed later, in CT81 and HG80.
Besides, ship designs of questionable legality is rather traditional.

Not many people have noticed that TL10 Regina had a shipyard producing state of the art TL15 warships, but there it is in the setting...

There are tidbits of information all over the place in supplements, adventures, and magazines, some of it canon, some of it not, who can keep track of it all?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And I did a quick survey of Spinward Marches for Class A starports with Naval bases. Oh, by the way, LBB9 Library Data states naval bases are for service and repair. They need a separate Class A starport in the system to build ships.

No they don't.
Civilian startport class does not prevent a planet from building ships. And once again I refer you to TL10 Regina having building TL15 IN warships.

I have to disagree:

Space ships are constructed and sold at shipyards throughout the galaxy. Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives. The military procures vessels through these yards, corporations buy their commercial vessels from these shipyards, and private individuals can purchase ships that they have designed through them as well.

The only exceptions I can recall are Naval Depots and planetary navies.

A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

In short, Naval Bases maintain ships, they do not build ships.

 

[Sigtrygg]

alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

LBB5 p20, as you say, allows a planetary navy to ignore the starport code and civilian shipbuilding capability.
Stands to reason that the IN in the setting (as evidenced by the very first published adventure) can do the same.

Also note that LBB2 and LBB5 while similar are vastly different in key areas. Which is one of the reasons canon is in such the mess that it is in.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Page 20: The Imperial Navy may procure ships of up to tech level 15, although it also
procures vessels at tech levels 10 through 14.

So various tech levels are possible. In all likelihood I would think that support vessels may get lower tech levels. If you are building a Jump 2 Transport ship you may not go for the TL 15 treatment.
Attack craft would be the high tech priority I agree completely. The Imperial Navy would get the best ships out of the Yards. Planetary Navies are:
"Planetary navies tend to be eccentric at best – officers are often retired or cashiered command staff from the subsector navy, poorly educated locals using out-of-date tactics, and third or fourth sons of noblemen. The equipment is equally eclectic – a combination of local designs, antiques and monitors." (HighGard March version page 3 in the Navy description section)

So TL 15 to the Imperial Navy. Subsector Navies get their castoffs and whatever they can make in the Sector. Planetary Navies get whatever they can cobble together. If it is a lower tech planet.... import as best you can I guess.

I would also like to say thanks to all for the friendly discussion. Thanks to AnotherDilbert for parsing my post and quoting me properly when I mashed his post trying to post my thoughts. His board fu is much stronger than mine.

I think one possible way for a lower tech Navy to compete would be a technology transfer. This would be a high tech production facility capable of producing high tech elements. One example would be TL 14 advanced missiles. Buying a Starport production facility, or a shipboard system and then using that to turn out a supply of advanced missiles could help arm a lower tech Navy. This would not be an ideal situation, but could help mitigate a tech disparity somewhat. The facility would also be the target of every Black strike and sabotage operation an enemy could mount.

Missiles are perhaps an exception in that they offer an immediate effect in combat.

Another option might be Tech advantages and disadvantages to make prototype weapons for your ships.

Maintenance on this mess would be a problem I think. Not sure how to express it in rules, but any kludge system will be a pain to manage.

And how well can a TL 10 pilot handle a TL 15 starship? How to best express the learning curve?
I am reminded of the movie "Charlie Wilson's War", and the use of the Stingers. Low tech transport and high tech use in the field. Not sure if this can translate into 2000 Tons of Bonded Superdense and TL 15 Sensor arrays.