andrew boulton
Mongoose
EDG said:
And vice versa.
Kafers in MGT
- Thread starter The Chef
- Start date
- Status
And vice versa.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
:lol: :lol: :lol:
andrew boulton said:
Hey, I'm not the one selling people stuff and not giving them what they pay for. If QLI doesn't want to put up with peoples' complaints (which are completely justified), they should stop screwing up so much and start giving a damn about their customers.
And it's not as if you even have any authority to speak for QLI anyway. You're not a QLI employee, you're just a guy who is a moderator on the forum that they run.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
He's also not the one constantly derailing topics to pound his own personal drum, either, I guess.
EDIT: My mistake. Apparently "Kafer" is idiomatic German for "Obsessive and tedious Grudgeholder"; it seems that the aliens in 2300 were notorious for self-servingly justifying interjecting personal complaints into unrelated topics and conversations, while scolding others for doing the same; and so were named accordingly by the original explorers and anthropologists.
So, please disregard my suggestion that this was in any way a topic derailment........
captainjack23 said:
They're only derailed when people like you continue to pass comment on them. Want to prove me right by posting something after this?
I commented on Andrew's post (as I have a right to do). He made a snarky post back. I reminded him of a bit of perspective on the matter. That should be the end of deviation. You don't need to prolong it.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
So then, to "just say no to derailment",
In all honesty, I'm assuming you would do so for the similarity to a rather unpleasant ethnic slur ? "Kaffir" being somewhat of an unpleasant term in africa for indigenes by later settlers, very reminisent of the "N" word here in the states, correct ?
I'm not sure if it was intentional, but I do know that the author was an old colonial gamer, and the "kafer dawn" module was pretty clearly at least an homage in title to "Zulu dawn".
I mean, I'd avoid it just to avoid having it hashed by the politically correct and the obstinately incorrect crowds.
But a simple test is,
1. do you care if someones political baggage splashes on your product and 2. would you feel okay with publishing a scenario with the main orclike antagonists being called W'oggges or N'ggurs ?
That said, I'm always in favor of aliens having their name used, rather than the human nickname...so there's traction there.
msprange said:
In all honesty, I'm assuming you would do so for the similarity to a rather unpleasant ethnic slur ? "Kaffir" being somewhat of an unpleasant term in africa for indigenes by later settlers, very reminisent of the "N" word here in the states, correct ?
I'm not sure if it was intentional, but I do know that the author was an old colonial gamer, and the "kafer dawn" module was pretty clearly at least an homage in title to "Zulu dawn".
I mean, I'd avoid it just to avoid having it hashed by the politically correct and the obstinately incorrect crowds.
But a simple test is,
1. do you care if someones political baggage splashes on your product and 2. would you feel okay with publishing a scenario with the main orclike antagonists being called W'oggges or N'ggurs ?
That said, I'm always in favor of aliens having their name used, rather than the human nickname...so there's traction there.
captainjack23 said:
I do find it hilarious (if not somewhat pathetic) that we have no problem casually repeating what is known to be a racist slur against black people in a foreign language on these boards (i.e. "kaffir"), but apparently we still can't bring ourselves to type "nigger" (oo! oo! I said it!). Maybe it's the audience, I dunno, but it seems awfully hypocritical to me - shouldn't we be saying "the K word" instead of kaffir? :roll:
At the end of the day, they're called Kafers - write it with an umlaut over the a if you must, but they're stlll called Kafers. Frankly, I find the idea of renaming them to avoid offending one or two people who might possibly get upset about it (despite it being made clear that the origin of the term is not the racist one) to be rather insulting to my intelligence.
I mean, maybe we should rename them because the name we give them is a racially offensive term to Kafers. How would they feel about being named after an insect?
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
As to the audience, maybe it's just the old "if I want to feel like I'm a smug intellectual, I shall be an ostentatious contrarian, which means being gratuitously offensive from a position of utter safety " thing that SF and online discussion seems to attract and encourage. At least as much as the "sensitive intellectual = politically correct knee jerker" type. Not sure which is the issue in this case.
Well gosh doc. The last thing I want to be insulting to is your intelligence.
To be clear: the main link for that, as far as I care, is the knowledge of the author's area of study (colonial africa), and the scenario name "kafer dawn" which explicitly links them to Zulus, one of the groups labeled "kaffirs" as an insult by ...the locals.
I really really doubt that FC intended any offense or is in any way a racist; it just seems to be a joke that's become more offensive with 30 years of cultural change. Its uneccessary baggage, I suggest.
I'm just surprised that people who are strongly in favor of canon revision in one genre ("if it's stupid and old, toss it out") defend it in others ("Kafers are kafers, changing them because of new politically correct attitudes is stupid"). Odd.
Main issue with typing "that" word: good point about "kaffir" - still, our local version has much more emotional baggage for me than it does, I guess -pehaps that makes me a hypocrite ? I shall certainly think about it.
Still, I think part of the TOS here is to avoid offensive language. It is offensive over here, especially to those of us "of color". No doubt it's different in BC ? Do you call black people that, to their face, on a regular basis ?
Me, I try not to say online what I wouldn't say to someone in public. Too weenyish.
I mean, maybe we should rename them because the name we give them is a racially offensive term to Kafers. How would they feel about being named after an insect?
It's a good point and one I agree with -calling them bugs is probably exactly what you suggest...as well as a pretty tedious SF trope, I'm sure you'll admit. I mean, who here is sick of "Aslan", even if it isn't a racial slur IRL
So to sum up.
MY main lack of objections to changing "kafer" to something else:
1. It's uncreative to have an insectoid SF race named after bugs. especially nowadays.
2. It is arguably a racist joke that Mongoose might well take heat for (where it counts: sales) :wink:
I really have not the slightest idea for whom the word "Kafer" could be
insulting, except perhaps for some purely fictional aliens - the words in
question are spelled and pronounced differently, and that should be
enough to avoid confusion.
Otherwise we might soon have a serious problem with the African state
Niger, with the many Italians who have Negro as a surname, with Roman
buildings like the Porta Nigra, with ... - well, with a significant part of the
encyclopedia of every language.
The idea to "ban" a word because some idiots abuse it for their purpo-
ses never really convinced me, except in very extreme cases. It is ra-
rely the word that is the problem, and I dislike to have to adapt my vo-
cabulary because of those who abuse words - whenever they use ano-
ther word as some kind of insult, I have to avoid that word, too ?
insulting, except perhaps for some purely fictional aliens - the words in
question are spelled and pronounced differently, and that should be
enough to avoid confusion.
Otherwise we might soon have a serious problem with the African state
Niger, with the many Italians who have Negro as a surname, with Roman
buildings like the Porta Nigra, with ... - well, with a significant part of the
encyclopedia of every language.
The idea to "ban" a word because some idiots abuse it for their purpo-
ses never really convinced me, except in very extreme cases. It is ra-
rely the word that is the problem, and I dislike to have to adapt my vo-
cabulary because of those who abuse words - whenever they use ano-
ther word as some kind of insult, I have to avoid that word, too ?
captainjack23 said:
Cute. I figured you'd try to twist things round to make it look like I'm a racist, just because I said "nigger". I guess you're too busy trying to look smug and sarcastic to give a damn about that. You're way the hell over the line now.
It's utterly idiotic of you to imply that I would call (or even think of calling) anyone a "nigger" (or kaffir, or anything else) to their face, and it's equally idiotic of you to ask if I do call them that (and what the hell do you think BC is, some kind of backwards social wasteland where this might be acceptable? Of course it bloody well isn't!). I know you just offended the hell out of me with your flippant insinuations, so don't you lecture me about "offensive language".
I used the word "nigger" in exactly the same way as "kaffir" has been thrown around here - not as a direct label for anybody, just in reference - and it's blindingly obvious that this is the case. But I still think it's still stupid that people don't bat an eyelid at using "kaffir" so much and yet can't bring themselves to write "nigger" even though both are racial slurs that are actively in use today in pretty much the same way. It's completely hypocritical - if you're so uptight about offending people then don't use either word (though I'd hope that most people are smart enough to know that we're just discussing the words here and not actually using them insultingly, and that saying them doesn't mean we even would use them as such).
In my opinion, this whole damn argument has been completely unnecessary and shouldn't even have been raised in the first place - it's political correctness gone even more mad than it was to start with.
captainjack23 said:
Only Germans or people with knowledge of the german language would notice (because, surprise surprise, the origin of the name in the setting was german). To everyone else, they're just "Kafers".
And you missed my point entirely - which was that naming a race after an insect is arguably insulting. Do we not want to name them after beetles for fear of it giving the wrong idea about how to treat races? That's where it could go if this stupidity is taken far enough.
I would argue that if they're just worried about the potential South African market (is there even one for RPGs?) then they can rename them there or put in the explanation and make it obvious. But to screw it up for everyone else who doesn't give a damn or even know of the term "kaffir" (as I'm sure very people outside of SA did before this thread) is madness.
If it was that offensive, people would have made a fuss about it when 2300AD was out originally and GDW would have edited it already in response (and yet they didn't). In all the intervening years, I've seen two people start threads about it on CotI and that's it. This really isn't an issue.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
Well doc, in this case, I wasn't actually doing anything other than asking you a simple question. I'm not even sure where you think I was being sarcastic or smug. Believe it or not, there are places in the world, and this country where mulatto isn't an ethnic slur, and places it'll get you shot: and similarly where "nigger" is a term of solidarity, or at least a non-issue. You've admitted previously you don't grok the american touchiness about slavery and racist language, I was honestly curious if it simply wasn't as big a deal for you because of your background.
Till, I'm going to do something that'll surprise you: I apologise for offending you; I don't think, and didn't mean to imply you are in any way a racist, or whatever that implied about BC. Take that or not, and try reading the rest of my points.
I'll just suggest that if this much heat can be generated by a question, perhaps its a good illustration of why the topic is more of an issue than you seem to see. There's a lot of things I'm not offended by that I'll avoid offending with. If you disagree, fine.
Again: I thought then and I think now that Kafer is uncreative, and a joke thats lost its humor. PC accusations are irrelevant. Its silly.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
Or anyone with knowledge of, and interest in African history, and in specific the history of the bloodbath that was the Zulu/bantu wars. which describes a big chunk of the GDW demographic. Probably not many people nowadays, I admit. Not sure that's the point, really. But, as we see with certain errant game companies these days, a small group of very offended customers can cause lots of trouble.
The issue predates COTI by a year or two; and it was an issue on mailing lists and in the colonial/RPG community at the time (probably before you even played traveller, if you started with TNE). Its a dead issue now, I admit, becuase 2300 has been dead for a while; but honestly, it would still be one if it wasn't for the anti-pc tirades as much as others. And it could be a hot one again. If Matt doesn't care about that ('cause lord knows he didn't inherit enough contentious issues with CT) I'm cool with it. I just think that dismissing the issue as PC silliness was avoiding the real issue: is it neccessary ?
Look. Your main issue seems to be that the very fact that my opinion exists is offensive. We got asked a question. We answered it. lets leave it at that, hmmmm ?
captainjack23 said:
No, you were asking if I'd call people that to their face. I find that question offensive (it's not really different to asking if someone would beat their wife or something. Why the hell would you even ask that sort of question, especially of someone who you have no idea about in an online discussion?). And also assuming that it's more acceptable here because "no doubt it's different in BC?". Actually no, it's the same in BC, because we're not bloody savages here, and I'm again offended that you would assume that we are.
It would be nice if you stopped assuming that I was some kind of backward idiot.
I'd love to believe that, but given your history of wilfully riling me up I don't think I can. Either way, it was a stupid thing for you to say. And you harping on about how people who use it in a discussion context like this are somehow "smug intellectuals who are being contrarian and offensive behind a position of safety" is also insulting. Actually, I'm using it because it's a word, and to make the point that it's relevant to this discussion because it's used in pretty much the same way as another word that we've all been tossing around without a second thought here.
It's not. The only reason it blew up was because you decided to take a potshot at me about my use of the word "nigger".
Of course, if they had been called "Nigers" instead of Kafers then you can bet there would have been an uproar when 2300AD first came out, because that obviously is reminiscent of "nigger". Kafer doesn't have that problem because (a) the word has a different origin to its soundalike and (b) hardly anyone in any significant RPG market knows what a "kaffir" is anyway, let alone be offended by it.
I don't think it was ever a "joke" - they were called Kafers before Kafer Dawn came out you know. And they got that name because some germans in the setting figured they looked like beetles, and german for beetle is "Kafer". See how that works?
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
I can but quote myself:
So, yes, we agree. Those are silly, too. Possibly the expansion of the whole SF market, and lots of repitition (raWoofs for dog people, anyone ?) has made them silly. So, lets just try somthing differnet if we have the chance. what are the Kafer called at home, does anyone remember ?
:wink:
captainjack23 said:
Why though? Why change something that ain't broken?
Who here is actually going to be offended if they're still called Kafers? Who here ever even WAS offended while they were called Kafers for the past couple of decades that 2300AD has been around in some form or another? Anyone?
A handful of people at most have even raised the issue in the past. That is not enough for any sane publisher to warrant changing anything.
Hence why, the Name of the Race, shall be changed to Prawn......oh wait....District 9. Hmmmm......BUGS.........wait...Starship Troopers....Klakons!......Crap....Space Opera.......Roaches? Definitly war starting material there.
See my point though, has been from the first post I made. Is it trivial. Yes. Can it be blown up one way from Hiroshima to Bomba. Yes again.
So, my question remains. What would be the grammatically correct Word to use, in German, for said critter?
~Rex....Doesn't remember enough German from my youthful days over there to recall the word.
See my point though, has been from the first post I made. Is it trivial. Yes. Can it be blown up one way from Hiroshima to Bomba. Yes again.
So, my question remains. What would be the grammatically correct Word to use, in German, for said critter?
~Rex....Doesn't remember enough German from my youthful days over there to recall the word.
Rex said:
I believe it should be "Käfer" (note the umlaut over the a). Which I don't have a problem with it being changed to, since it's the same word except with an accent in the right place. Though I suspect Mongoose's layout people might have issues with it
.Oddly, if you do a google search for "Kafer" then it also has suggestions based on "kaffir" for no apparent reason (because it's trying to be helpful, I dunno). If you do a google search for "Käfer" (with the umlaut) those suggestions disappear. So hooray, another point in favour of using "Käfer"
.- Status
